Bonding upgraded pumps is too hard. What is the most powerful pump/filter that does not require bonding (and I hope will pump to my roof solar)

[AGP noob]

Hi
So I bought a couple solar panels, an upgraded pump and filter. Before hooking it up I did a bunch of research and determined it will be too hard to properly electrically bond my upgraded pump. My pool is a 14 ft round (4000 gallon) intex steel w/ steel legs and sits on pavers (not dirt). Even an electrician said he doesnt know how and to call a pool guy. Therefore, my solution is to return the upgraded pump/filter (that requires bonding) and buy the most powerful pump that does NOT require bonding. I believe it is Intex 3000 GPH Above Ground Pool Sand Filter Pump which is 0.75HP. I know this pump is not meant to pump up to my roof and may not work but i read a couple reviews of less powerful pumps where it works for them to pump up to the roof. (I need to go 16 feed vertical to the roof using 2 inch piping)

Amazon.com: Intex 3000 GPH Above Ground Pool Sand Filter Pump w/ 1.5 Inch Pump Hose (2 Pack): Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Intex 3000 GPH Above Ground Pool Sand Filter Pump w/ 1.5 Inch Pump Hose (2 Pack): Home Improvement

www.amazon.com

The other solution I thought of is a booster pump but it appears those use small hose connections and may require running electrical up to the pump on the roof and may require bonding.

For any intex pool owners out there that want to meet bonding requirements and at the same time need to pump water to rooftop solar, let me just say you are in for a nightmare


UPDATE: for those in my situation
Double insulated intex pumps are likely not any safer than the upgraded pumps that require bonding. They are only safer if u were to touch the pump

So it sounds like i will have to rip up a ring of pavers (and some concrete) around the pool and run a copper wire.........And when i take the pool down for the winter i would have the wire sticking up through the pavers.

I do not think all this will be worth it for my situation

 

[AK-]

As far as I remember the type of pool you are describing is classified as removable and doesn't need bonding.

As for the pump that requires bonding you should at bare minimum bond it to the water. You need to run an #8 AWG Solid Bare Copper wire from the pump bonding lug to whatever approved method of water bonding you choose. I'm using and PB-2008 Water Bonding Fitting inline. Make sure the wire is buried 4" - 6" deep. Make sure all lugs/connectors are rated for direct burial.

On permanent AGP your bonding should encircle the pool and connect to at least 4 points in the metal structure. I'm using lay-in lugs to connect the bare copper wire to the structure. I had pre-drilled holes that had no specified purpose. I'd do the same in your case.

Have you tried to contact the electrical inspector of your municipality/county?

 

[AGP noob]

The reason bonding is too hard for me is 1) pool is on pavers and i cant run copper under them and 2) the powder coated steel legs and removable ladder (are not designed to be bonded)
I know this pump/filter is overkill for my pool but may be underpowered to pump up to my roof. If this is the best solution for my above post, shall I only fill it up with half the amount of sand to increase the pumping "power" to get water to the roof and since I may not need that much filtering (due to small 4000 gallon pool)?

 

[AGP noob]

As far as I remember the type of pool you are describing is classified as removable and doesn't need bonding.

Correct but if upgrading the pump, then bonding is required for the pump (and from what I read, probably the entire pool).

Make sure the wire is buried 4" - 6" deep

Pool is on pavers and I cannot bury anything

Have you tried to contact the electrical inspector of your municipality/county?

I'd rather not risk an inspector saying this cannot be bonded take it down
I tried an electrician who said call a pool person but no pool people will take a small job right now

 

[ajw22]

Having a double insulated pump does not eliminate the requirement for the rest of the pool are to be bonded together. At a minimum the water bonded to the surrounding deck area.

Bonding protects you from stray currents that can come from non-pool electrical sources around your property.

Here is a thread that has been going on for 6 years trying to find the source of a tingle - A Slight Shock.

Here the voltage source was a streetlight connected to the house power line Bonding Issue In A Pool.

 

[proavia]

I'd rather not risk an inspector saying this cannot be bonded take it down
I tried an electrician who said call a pool person but no pool people will take a small job right now

Would you rather put swimmers at risk in your pool due to improper or non-existent bonding?
As was suggested, check with your local jurisdiction to know what the actual bonding requirements are for your pool and equipment. And then do it properly for the safety of your pool users.

 

[AGP noob]

Having a double insulated pump does not eliminate the requirement for the rest of the pool are to be bonded together. At a minimum the water bonded to the surrounding deck area.

Ive googled and searched and looked at the forums some.

Here is the first thing that comes up on google

Q. Do the equipotential bonding requirements of Part II of Art. 680 apply to storable swimming pools?

A. No. Electrical installations for storable pools must comply with Part I of Art. 680 [see 680.30]. They are not required to follow the equipotential bonding requirements of Part II. The requirements contained in Part I of Art. 680 include the locations of switches, receptacles, and luminaires.
A storable swimming pool is defined in 680.2 as an aboveground pool with a maximum water depth of 42 in.


From this and other things I read it sounds like there are no bonding requirements with storable pools and also the manufacturer designs these pools NOT to be bonded. Even these plastic pumps are designed NOT to be bonded
But when upgrading the pump that opens a can of worms, therefore I think best solution is to get the biggest pump that does NOT require it?

 

[ajw22]

You are trying to rationalize that an unbonded storable pool is somehow more safe then an unbonded pool that the NEC requires bonding for. They are equally unsafe.

The storable pool exemption in the NEC is an economic compromise that does not change the laws of physics or electricity or the risk of electrical shocks.

If you want to have an unbonded pool so be it. Trying to parse words in the NEC does not change the safety of it.

 

[borjis]

The bond wire underground can be around the perimeter, outside the pool wall. You don't have to take the pool down to bond it.

I totally get the frustration, but honestly, you're playing with fire.

 

[CJadamec]

Ive googled and searched and looked at the forums some.

Here is the first thing that comes up on google

Q. Do the equipotential bonding requirements of Part II of Art. 680 apply to storable swimming pools?

A. No. Electrical installations for storable pools must comply with Part I of Art. 680 [see 680.30]. They are not required to follow the equipotential bonding requirements of Part II. The requirements contained in Part I of Art. 680 include the locations of switches, receptacles, and luminaires.
A storable swimming pool is defined in 680.2 as an aboveground pool with a maximum water depth of 42 in.


From this and other things I read it sounds like there are no bonding requirements with storable pools and also the manufacturer designs these pools NOT to be bonded. Even these plastic pumps are designed NOT to be bonded
But when upgrading the pump that opens a can of worms, therefore I think best solution is to get the biggest pump that does NOT require it?

If the water depth in your pool less than 42 inches at maximum fill high, then no NEC bonding does not apply.

If the water height is equal to 42" or higher than NEC bonding rules apply. Nobody is going to enforce those rules on you unless you have pulled a permit and need inspections.

Pretty much any pool pump other than the small Intex double insulated ones will come with a bonding lug. The pump will work just fine with nothing connected to the bonding lug. The size of the pump has nothing to do with the requirements for bonding. Its only the place that the pump is installed that says if you need bonding.

Unless you plan on installing a full bonding loop, which it sounds like you unwilling to do, size the pump you need for your solar panels based on your instillation. Bonding is an all or nothing proposition. You either do it all at the same time or none of it. There is no safe in-between.

At the very least you should make sure what even new pump you install is powered off a GFCI protected circuit.

 

[AGP noob]

You are trying to rationalize that an unbonded storable pool is somehow more safe then an unbonded pool that the NEC requires bonding for. They are equally unsafe.

Im not rationalizing...Im ignorant!

To me it sounds like the safety risks of not bonding these is low enough that it is not required because they have these double insulated plastic pumps. However once you upgrade the pump, then the risk increases to the point where it is required (upgraded pumps are not double insulated w/ GFI built in)
I wish i can bond everything correctly, however Im on pavers and cant get a wire below it and the pool legs are not designed to be bonded easily. Therefore my alternative solution is to buy the biggest pump that does not require bonding. This is the safest alternative solution I can think of. Or is this dumb and will be negligible to increase safety.

 

[AGP noob]

1) So if I run a bonding wire on top of the pavers within 4 inches of the pool perimeter (i have no space) this will be better than nothing? It doesnt have to be in the dirt? (like code requires) I just dont want to INCREASE the risk of shock by doing this. Also i do realize the other requirements of where to connect this (the water, the legs, pump)

Also this pool comes with a removable ladder (aluminum or steel but may be powder coated). I assume to meet bonding requirements I will be forced to keep this ladder in permanently and attach a bonding wire to it correct?

 

[CJadamec]

The size and type of pump at this point is not the issue and never really was an issue. The pump has nothing to do with the requirements for bonding.

Any manmade pool of water, of any size, in your yard be it a swimming pool or a fish pond is significantly safer with a bonding loop installed. End of story.

Again since you have no bonding installed and won't do the work to do so. Use any pump you choose to run the solar panels.

You should add a GFCI breaker or outlet to power the pump. Or use a short extension cord with a GFCI device if you are unable to do electrical work.

The loop around the pool is to be buried and in contact with the earth to properly disperse any stray voltage. Puting it on top of the pavers would actually make it more dangerous than doing nothing.

You are not significantly safer with the Intex pump vs a regular pool pump. The type of pump including the one you already have doesn't matter.

 

[mguzzy]

From this and other things I read it sounds like there are no bonding requirements with storable pools and also the manufacturer designs these pools NOT to be bonded. Even these plastic pumps are designed NOT to be bonded

AGP... Why are you googling this stuff. You will get hits from all over the country. Call your county building permit office and ask. They will tell you what the requirements are for your type of pool. They actually like answering questions because in the end its less work for them to have to decline someones permit because they didn't know the local codes.

I am using an old AGP pump for my waterfall.. it has a bonding lug on it. Just because your pool is on pavers doesn't mean the bonding wire cant be buried. Either way, you just added more components to your pool with the solar panels. The water running through the pipes is going to create static electricity, you want to bond all that stuff together IMO. Do the best you can.

 

[AGP noob]

Again since you have no bonding installed and won't do the work to do so. Use any pump you choose to run the solar panels.

Im willing to do the work as long as I am able to do it properly without INCREASING the risk. Please see my limitations above. The one thing Im not willing to do is rip up my pavers to do this.

The loop around the pool is to be buried and in contact with the earth to properly disperse any stray voltage. Puting it on top of the pavers would actually make it more dangerous than doing nothing.

I will def have GFI protection. And thank you for the info about putting it on top of pavers will INCREASE the risk, this is why I have to find an alternative to minimize it....

You are not significantly safer with the Intex pump vs a regular pool pump. The type of pump including the one you already have doesn't matter.

That suprises me that the type of pump doesnt matter? The intex pumps are double insulated and specifically say bonding is not required....therefore why would the type of pump not matter? Im not expert but it sounds like these intex pumps are significantly safer? I think even the electrical code states double insulated AND GFI protected pumps do NOT need bonding.

 

[AGP noob]

AGP... Why are you googling this stuff. You will get hits from all over the country. Call your county building permit office and ask. They will tell you what the requirements are for your type of pool.

The reason is they will say I must rip up all my pavers to do this correctly. It will cost $15,000 at least. I wish i can do it over the pavers but previous poster says this may increase risk.

 

[ajw22]

That suprises me that the type of pump doesnt matter? The intex pumps are double insulated and specifically say bonding is not required....therefore why would the type of pump not matter? Im not expert but it sounds like these intex pumps are significantly safer? I think even the electrical code states double insulated AND GFI protected pumps do NOT need bonding.

Bonding is to protect you from shocks from stray current.

A pool pump is only ONE of MANY sources of stray current on your property.

The choice of your pump does not make your body of water any more safe.

It is more likely the electricity that will shock your family in your pool will come from your house, your neighbors house, a well pump, a street light, or the electrical transformer on the pole that feeds your house.

 

[mguzzy]

The reason is they will say I must rip up all my pavers to do this correctly. It will cost $15,000 at least. I wish i can do it over the pavers but previous poster says this may increase risk.

Not if its just a phone call for information. Now if you are working on something associated with a permitting inspection.. then yeah.. but you are not even to that stage of the game.. You are just collecting information.

So I am still trying to piece together your layout. Do you have your pool sitting on an entire paver patio or are they just pavers under the supports? I'm thinking it pavers just under the supports and dirt or landscaping everywhere else. Send us a pic so we know what we are looking at instead of guessing. We all have a different idea of what your pavers look like in our minds eye.. In my minds eye, you only have to remove a few pavers to put in the bonding wire and then re-set them. But I'm thinking of MY paver patio not yours.

 

[AGP noob]

The choice of your pump does not make your body of water any more safe.

Thank you for the insight

Are you sure choice of pump does not make the body of water any more safe?
1) it appears there is an exception for these pumps to not be bonded....see bold below
2) These intex pumps are not even designed to be bonded (i think because they are double insulated?)

I am now realizing this will not eliminate my risks but i am trying to minimize the risk (because i cant spend $15k to rip up my pavers just to put a bonding wire down)


680.26(B) Bonded Parts. **
The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1)
through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper
conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than
8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified
corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded
parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or
larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce
voltage gradients in the pool area shall not be required to be
extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment,
or electrodes.
(6) Electrical Equipment. **
Metal parts of electrical equipment
associated with the pool water circulating system,
including pump motors and metal parts of equipment associated
with pool covers, including electric motors, shall be
bonded.
Exception: Metal parts of listed equipment incorporating
an approved system of double insulation shall not be
bonded.
(a) Double-Insulated Water Pump Motors*. *Where a
double-insulated water pump motor is installed under the
provisions of this rule, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor of
sufficient length to make a bonding connection to a replacement
motor shall be extended from the bonding grid to an
accessible point in the vicinity of the pool pump motor.
Where there is no connection between the swimming pool
bonding grid and the equipment grounding system for the
premises, this bonding conductor shall be connected to the
equipment grounding conductor of the motor circuit.

 

[magiteck]

From my understanding, double insulation makes the pump safer, not the pool. All of the metal components of the pump that could short are contained within another layer of insulation. So you cannot get shocked by touching the pump. Because the outside of a double insulated pump is not a conductor, it doesn't need to be bonded. But that has no bearing on the shock risk from within the pool.