Help a newbie with proposal comparison?

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pool123* said:
After reading this I guess I shouldn't have posted the design. Not sure how to get feedback without sharing it though. I will leave it up for another day or so to maximize any available advice and then remove it.
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Pool,

I'm not an attorney, maybe one will chime in or you should get one to advise. I have managed and been responsible for a huge amount of construction, large and small projects for over 40 years though. I believe their proposal does not create any obligations on your part unless you sign and agree. You should be able to get expert advice for the purpose of evaluating their proposal. If this isn't OK with them then I'd look elsewhere. I think they're really trying to make sure you don't give away any secrets or proprietary methods. Very reasonable but I don't see any of that in this document. If they made you sign this commitment you should tell them you need a release to get expert advice. A top quality builder will welcome this because it means you're very serious and you will be an informed buyer. They will also know if they made a mistake or you just want to change something earlier in the process. The more you do to be certain of your preferences before the builder starts, the better this will work for both of you. If they unreasonably try to restrict 3rd party advice it would be a warning sign to me.

My $.02 and I hope it helps.

Chris
 
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pool123* said:
Here is the contract:

Dimensions of Pool: Width 20' and Length 40'
Area: 800 sq ft
Shape of Pool: Rectangle
Depth: 3'6" - 8' (a little different than your spec)

All Proposals and Designs are owned by XXXX Pool Builder and may only be distributed by XXXX Pool Builder or by written consent. Sharing our proposal and designs are strictly forbidden and unlawful. Please be respectful of the time and effort that we put into providing YOU a personal design and proposal. Do not provide this information to our competitors. This should not prohibit you from getting expert advice as I read it but you may want to get them to acknowledge that you may use their documents to assist in evaluation of their proposal and for 3rd party inspection

THIS AGREEMENT, between Contractor hereinafter referred to as "Seller" and "Buyer" (listed above), for the construction of a swimming pool and related equipment, agree that the terms and conditions listed on the bottom part of this agreement and that the writing contains the entire agreement between the Buyer and Seller, and further acknowledges that each of them has read and understood this entire contract, and has received a copy thereof, this contract may be amended by addendum, signed by any one of the buyers whose name appears below.

Pool to be completed approximately 90 working days after excavation under correct weather and working conditions. If other portions of the job that directly impact the ability of the pool to continue progress, then the 90 days will be re-evaluated. Excavation to begin within 5 days of the County permit approval and County initial Site Visit.

STANDARD CONSTRUCTION SPECIFICATIONS

1. Seller to supply pool plans, stake out pool on day of excavation (Buyer to approve pool, equipment location, and elevation) How long do you have for approvals that are required by you?
2. Seller to obtain STANDARD swimming pool construction permits for Buyer. Grading plan to be provided by other if needed What does this mean? Are you obligated to do this? If so could be extra cost... make sure to clarify
3. Access walls, obstructions, or fences to be removed by Seller, to be replaced by Buyer Get them to do this or make sure you know your costs and permits that may be required.
4. Tree removal is the responsibility of the Buyer and should be done prior to excavation day Wow! More potential for added costs. What about roots? This can be very expensive in some cases. Your lot looks clear but it also looks new and if original vegetation was trees there could be roots that interfere with excavation. Get clarification on this.
5. Excavation - Seller to excavate pool, hand shape and stock pile excess soil onsite day of excavation. Your PB has experience in your development. You should understand the potential extra costs he has experienced.
a. If upon excavation Seller finds tree stumps, Buyer will be notified of any potential extra costs to remove said tree stumps
6. A Standard Hydrostatic Control System shall be installed in all pools by Seller with relief plugs in deep and possible shallow ends
7. Steel Reinforcement to be structurally engineered to comply with (ASTM) No. A615. Steel structures to be bonded with #8 copper ground wire per National Electric Code
8. Pneumatically applied concrete shell (known as gunite or shotcrete) structurally engineered in accordance with the American Concrete Institute ACI-318 Standard "Building Code Requirements for Reinforced Concrete" designed to attain 4,000 PSI Compressive Strength at 28 days. The minimum thickness of the gunite is to be as follows: walls 6", floors 6", covers 8", and perimeter bond beam 14"
9. Seller to install 6" bank of Frost Proof waterline tile. Color and Choice to be selected by Buyer from Sellers selection. If glass is chosen, Buyer realizes that this is an Upgrade and a change order will be given Decide this prior to award
10. Seller to electrically bond entire steel reinforcing and equipment for the pool
11. Pool equipment to be installed on concrete pad near AC Units
12. Plumbing to include two (2) deluxe self-adjusting weir and leaf bucket included, Dual Anti-Vortex Main Drains that are VGBA Compliant
13. Seller to provide Buyer proof of insurance papers upon request Get yourself added with a "named insured certificate" from the insurer. This should be provided at no additional cost within 48 hrs of signing contract..
14. Seller will provide the Buyer with start up instructions, equipment checkout, and will put equipment into operation
15. Buyer is responsible for the filling of the swimming pool Get details on your obligation here make sure you can fulfil.
16. Interior Finish - Quartz Plaster
17. Winter Cover is included and will be installed after all final payments have been made
18. Boulders, Rocks, and Landscaping are not part of this package unless stated otherwise and are in the design for conception only.
19. This package does not include fencing
20. All proposals, 3D designs, and 3D videos are the copy righted property of XXXX Pool Builder and may not be shared without the consent of XXXX Pool Builder. Get consent for expert advice and your inspector.
Click to expand...

I'm in a little bit of a hurry so I added my comments above in bold italic underline. I'll check again later today. As you approach the builder on these comments do so in a constructive way. Don't be unintentionally or intentionally combative - just try to fully understand your obligations and potential costs. He should be very helpful and constructive in return.

I hope this helps
 
@Pool_Medic any suggestions of what kind of feature and where? Something that is relatively inexpensive? We initially had a diving wall (a foot or two tall) at the deep end and that had a waterfall, but ultimately we decided it would be dangerous when wet and didn't ask this PB to design it. It was an idea from another PB so I don't know how much this PB would even charge for it.
 
setsailsoon said:
Pool,

I agree with Jim and I'd take it a step further. Your builder and equipment sales people are conflicted with their recommendations since they all want to sell you what makes them the most $. Not saying they all are using their conflicted position to their advantage but we've sure seen a lot that did. Nothing wrong with the profit motive in my mind but you should try to get as much non-conflicted advice you can. We sell absolutely nothing. Just have a lot of experts and pool enthusiasts that want to help you avoid problems. So congrats! You are waaaay ahead of the game by asking for feedback on this forum.

Your next step should decide what equipment you want then get the PB's to quote on the same equipment. They won't always quote identical proposals but it definitely helps if you get them to be "apples to apples" as much as possible. Have you settled on a size and the pool design features. We have a huge number of experts that can advise. Ask as many questions as you can on this forum, people here will give you expert advice and you'll avoid some pitfalls.

Also remember the contract can be as important as the pool specification. Be sure to review and understand every word. We can help with that as well. You will almost certainly need to change some provisions as they are usually written one-way in the builder's favor. At the end of the day you want an agreement that's fair and absolutely clear to both parties.

So back to your original question, here are a couple of additional items to think about:.
  • There are 3 major brands of equipment. All work well but there are some differences. If you plan to do any maintenance yourself or any DYI repairs in the future all 3 manufacturers have some limitations on the warranty they provide. Jandy's warranty restriction for DIY is the most severe with no warranty for online purchase or DIY installation other than valve overhaul parts.
  • Many people on this site recommend a salt system. I didn't go that way for several years and I wish I had done salt from the start.
  • There are advantages to stay with one brand of equipment especially if you install automation. For a first-time pool owner I'd make it easy on yourself and go with one brand. My pool was originally Jandy and I'm transitioning to Pentair but there are many here that use Hayward very successfully.
  • I also agree with Jim on the filter and fusion system. Don't install anything that uses a mineral system.
  • Do Consider a cartridge. They're way better than they used to be, don't consume water for the back-wash, and maintenance is a snap. Make sure it's sized properly and you'll only need to clean it a couple times per year. My second choice would be a sand filter.
  • Strongly consider a VS pump. It will probably pay for itself in the first 12-18 months. Also, many pool builders over-size the pump. It's tough to argue with them as you then may have trouble with related warranty claims. If you get a VS pump you can at least run low speed and incur a LOT of benefit on your power bill when after you figure out how much you really need to run it.
  • Make sure the pool swg is sized for 2x the pool volume. This is a standard recommendation of TFP to help optimize cell life. We have quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that it works. Many are getting 8 years.
A lot of your pool specification will be about your personal preferences. So when you ask questions in this area you may hear different preferences. When that happens it almost always means it's up to you. You can learn about the reasons people go differently and decide what works best for you. But when you hear all the experts saying the same thing that should get your attention. And it could save you a lot of grief down the road.

We all look forward to interacting with you as you go down the pool build road. So it's over to you with more questions!

I hope this is helpful.

Chris
Click to expand...
Chris- I spoke to the PB today about the points you and others have raised.
  • We are now using a VS pump (FLOPRO VS PUMP W/ CONTROL)
  • He clarified that the salt system is a Jandy Aquapure 1400
  • He agreed to us having our own inspector, although he would like to know the person's qualifications and advised that if the inspector wants him to do something out of the ordinary that is nor part of the contract, there would be a charge for that.
  • He said he can provide engineered, stamped structural drawings that are not job specific. If we want job specific drawings it will be $4K and and engineer grading plan will be $6500 extra.
  • He will provide a timeline or quality plan.
  • The one thing he pushed back a bit on was the filter. You and others had advised against a mineral filter and to get a large cartridge filter but the PB said "DE Filters will filter up to 5 microns (the best of all filters) while catridge filter only filter up to 10 micorons. The DE Filter is the best filter on the market to properly filter your pool. It will turn it over much faster with much less maintenance every year when you open it. Trust me, I’ve been doing this for about 25 years. DE is the way to go. " Any comment on that?
Thanks!
 
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P,

The main problem is that he has been doing this for 25 years.. It is hard to break old habits, even when wrong.. You can't tell the difference between 5 and 10 microns..

In the big picture a DE filter will work fine... His reasoning is just bull, but he knows what he likes.. As I probably said before, I have two rent house pools that have DE filters... As soon as they die, they will be replaced with cartridge filters, like the one I have at my house...

If you don't want to confront him, then the world will not end because you went with a DE filter... Otherwise, ask him if he is building your pool or his pool??? :)

Edit.. I would not spend any money on special drawings or engineering studies...

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
pool123* said:
Chris- I spoke to the PB today about the points you and others have raised.
  • We are now using a VS pump (FLOPRO VS PUMP W/ CONTROL) Great!
  • He clarified that the salt system is a Jandy Aquapure 1400 Great!
  • He agreed to us having our own inspector, although he would like to know the person's qualifications and advised that if the inspector wants him to do something out of the ordinary that is nor part of the contract, there would be a charge for that. Great! Also, make sure your inspector is given clear direction his role is to assure design specifications are implemented. He is NOT designing anything. If he has any questions that are not covered by a design spec he should discuss with you and the builder prior to start of construction..
  • He said he can provide engineered, stamped structural drawings that are not job specific. If we want job specific drawings it will be $4K and and engineer grading plan will be $6500 extra. Not great - see my comments below.
  • He will provide a timeline or quality plan. He isn't familiar with a quality plan.
  • The one thing he pushed back a bit on was the filter. You and others had advised against a mineral filter and to get a large cartridge filter but the PB said "DE Filters will filter up to 5 microns (the best of all filters) while catridge filter only filter up to 10 micorons. The DE Filter is the best filter on the market to properly filter your pool. It will turn it over much faster with much less maintenance every year when you open it. Trust me, I’ve been doing this for about 25 years. DE is the way to go. " Any comment on that? He's clearly not current with latest equipment developments. I would just ask him to quote a sand filter and a cartridge filter as an option. Then you decide, it's your pool. DE will definitely work but I would not buy one for my pool today.
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Pool,

You're making good progress!

Please see my thoughts on your PB responses above. As you can see I pretty much agree with Jim. I do have more than a concern on the engineering costs. His response leads me to believe he only uses a "generic design" so he doesn't have the engineering costs for each pool. For a simple pool like yours this may be OK but does raise a little concern about the warranty. You really never want to have to rely on a structural warranty as they are fraught with problems to enforce. Your real protection comes from a design that is based on your specific soil strengths, and other design criteria that are specified on your drawings so the constructor knows exactly how to excavate, fill/compact, build the framing and rebar etc. Your builder appears to be working off a generic design to do all this. There are ways to do this that work. He must assume soil strengths are close enough to other soils data his designer has. He must also follow requirements the engineer specified for changing dimensions (hopefully the generic design provides this). You can look at the generic design to see how similar it is to your pool and determine if it covers your pool dimensions. If this checks out you're OK and your only risk is that you're outside the soil strengths assumed for your installation. All this said, it's pretty clear he doesn't want a specific design. I can't explain this and I'd not want that risk for an expenditure of $100K+ with an expected life of 20+years. Many jurisdictions do not require a PE stamped drawing for structures and foundations but I have always required this and it's usually a very small % of the installed cost and nowhere near 6%.

A timeline isn't a quality plan. A quality plan describes the specific activities he undertakes to assure the pool is built to the specifications. Examples are:
  • Final verification and recording of all dimensions called out on the stamped drawing prior to concrete pouring.
  • Sampling of concrete for strength testing
  • Verify materials delivered meet the specs.
A quality plan isn't absolutely required but it is definitely a best practice for all construction. If you don't have it you rely on seasoned, experienced craftsmen to do this themselves. This used to work well, but with the current shortage of highly skilled craft labor lack of a quality plan is a risk. If there's really only one builder you can get to bid you may not have this option. You can mitigate this risk with your inspector.

I hope this helps.

Chris
 
setsailsoon said:
Pool,

You're making good progress!

Please see my thoughts on your PB responses above. As you can see I pretty much agree with Jim. I do have more than a concern on the engineering costs. His response leads me to believe he only uses a "generic design" so he doesn't have the engineering costs for each pool. For a simple pool like yours this may be OK but does raise a little concern about the warranty. You really never want to have to rely on a structural warranty as they are fraught with problems to enforce. Your real protection comes from a design that is based on your specific soil strengths, and other design criteria that are specified on your drawings so the constructor knows exactly how to excavate, fill/compact, build the framing and rebar etc. Your builder appears to be working off a generic design to do all this. There are ways to do this that work. He must assume soil strengths are close enough to other soils data his designer has. He must also follow requirements the engineer specified for changing dimensions (hopefully the generic design provides this). You can look at the generic design to see how similar it is to your pool and determine if it covers your pool dimensions. If this checks out you're OK and your only risk is that you're outside the soil strengths assumed for your installation. All this said, it's pretty clear he doesn't want a specific design. I can't explain this and I'd not want that risk for an expenditure of $100K+ with an expected life of 20+years. Many jurisdictions do not require a PE stamped drawing for structures and foundations but I have always required this and it's usually a very small % of the installed cost and nowhere near 6%.

A timeline isn't a quality plan. A quality plan describes the specific activities he undertakes to assure the pool is built to the specifications. Examples are:
  • Final verification and recording of all dimensions called out on the stamped drawing prior to concrete pouring.
  • Sampling of concrete for strength testing
  • Verify materials delivered meet the specs.
A quality plan isn't absolutely required but it is definitely a best practice for all construction. If you don't have it you rely on seasoned, experienced craftsmen to do this themselves. This used to work well, but with the current shortage of highly skilled craft labor lack of a quality plan is a risk. If there's really only one builder you can get to bid you may not have this option. You can mitigate this risk with your inspector.

I hope this helps.

Chris
Click to expand...
Thanks so much. I'm not sure what to do with the engineered drawings because I'm not going to pay thousands of dollars for them and don't have PBs lining up at my door to build for me. I will ask him for the drawing and also about the soil strengths. Let's see what he says. Also, I think we're going to go with the large cartridge filter. I came here because I trust the advice being given here so I think I should take it. Thank you.
 
pool123* said:
Thanks so much. I'm not sure what to do with the engineered drawings because I'm not going to pay thousands of dollars for them and don't have PBs lining up at my door to build for me. I will ask him for the drawing and also about the soil strengths. Let's see what he says. Also, I think we're going to go with the large cartridge filter. I came here because I trust the advice being given here so I think I should take it. Thank you.
Click to expand...
Pool,

Sounds like a great plan. Construction project management has been my life's passion and a big part of the fascination to me is that every project is different. You never get to do everything perfectly. Part of the key to success is to take risk in the right places. Quiz him on how he applies the generic design and how he adjusts it with certainty that the final dimensions meet the design standards he quoted. Also, how is this communicated to the construction craft labor.

How are you finding the relationship? Do you feel more like he's listening and trying to help you understand or is he just patronizing to get the deal? It's surprising how important this stuff is. A renowned expert in cutting edge project management has said "we all know people do projects but nobody pays enough attention to relationships among project stakeholders." My experiences has proven this true time and time again.

Good luck and I look forward to hearing his response. Fingers crossed that he realizes you're pretty smart and getting great advice. If he's good he may realize you'd be a great customer.

Chris
 
pool123* said:
Chris- I spoke to the PB today about the points you and others have raised.
  • We are now using a VS pump (FLOPRO VS PUMP W/ CONTROL)
  • He clarified that the salt system is a Jandy Aquapure 1400
  • He agreed to us having our own inspector, although he would like to know the person's qualifications and advised that if the inspector wants him to do something out of the ordinary that is nor part of the contract, there would be a charge for that.
  • He said he can provide engineered, stamped structural drawings that are not job specific. If we want job specific drawings it will be $4K and and engineer grading plan will be $6500 extra.
  • He will provide a timeline or quality plan.
  • The one thing he pushed back a bit on was the filter. You and others had advised against a mineral filter and to get a large cartridge filter but the PB said "DE Filters will filter up to 5 microns (the best of all filters) while catridge filter only filter up to 10 micorons. The DE Filter is the best filter on the market to properly filter your pool. It will turn it over much faster with much less maintenance every year when you open it. Trust me, I’ve been doing this for about 25 years. DE is the way to go. " Any comment on that?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

If you want DE, you can go with a cartridge DE filter. Both Hayward and Pentair make one. It can be hosed down just like a cartridge filter, and then DE added, or backwashed which is easier but wastes some water. DE does polish the water just a little more, but probably will not be very noticeable. Filter selection seems very regional...around me almost everyone I know has a DE filter. With an autocover your filter cleanings should be minimized. Make sure the filter is large (builders like to use the minimum size filter to save a few bucks). Also as another poster said above, I would recommend insisting on Pentair or Hayward equipment so that you can easily service it yourself if you desire to. Jandy is dealer only for warranty right now, and who knows if they will chose to take further steps to stop online sales.
 
Good morning. Still working on this pool but the size has increased to 976 sq. ft (20 x 40 with large tanning ledge and recessed stairs). Have asked PB to change equipment from Jandy to the below Pentair. I didn't specify the exact filter, just that I wanted a very large cartridge filter. Can anyone advise if this filter is a good choice? Thank you!

Pentair IntelliCenter System (Load Center with i8PS Personality Kit)
Pentair 60K GAL INTELLICHLOR IC60 SCG CELL with Power Center
Pentair 3HP - 230v Intelliflo Variable Speed Pump 011028
Pentair Clean & Clear 420sq ft Cartridge Filter
(3) Pentair IntellitBrite 5G Color LED Lights
(2) Pentair GloBrite Color Changing LED Lights for the Ledge Area
Pentair - The Prowler 820 Cleaner

 
123,

The filter is one size below the largest they have which is the 520.. The 420 will work just fine.

You do not want an IC60 with the external power center... You want the IntelliCenter that comes with the internal SWCG power supply.

The pump is the Gold Standard of pool pumps.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
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I would get the MicroBrite lights instead of the GloBrite lights. The GloBrite lights are in a proprietary housing and do not have a good reliability record. With the GloBrites you will be stuck with expensive replacements for the life of the pool.
 

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