Old Spa with GFI Issue

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B

Big_Box

0
Mar 26, 2018
13
Detroit Suburbs, MI
Hello and thanks for the help with starting up my hot tub this past spring.

I'm back looking for some more advice with respect to my 1996 Sundance Corum hot tub.

In short, the breaker in the service panel (50 Amp, GFCI) keeps tripping. I don't know if its because of the ground fault or the basic breaker operation. I just found it tripped yesterday and the water is already cold. With the holidays I haven't used it or checked the levels in a few weeks. The weather is dipping below freezing so I'm trying to get a solution before I get some freeze damage. I think I have a few days still.

I opened the service box, the spa control box and any other areas I could think of to look for burns or shorts but nothing is visible. No capacitors or blown or any of the wiring looks loose.

In an attempt to see if the heater or the pump was the issue, I disconnected them from the control panel but the breaker still trips. Both items look clean for being 20 years old. I checked the voltage in the service panel and everything looks good. I can't check continuity or voltage in the control panel because the breaker trips after 2-3 seconds. This means I also can't check for error codes.

If anyone has any suggestions besides draining and setting fire to it, I'm all ears. I have a good Fluke DMM and a basic understanding of what should be happening, but maybe someone has run into something like this in the past.

If I've left out any info, please let me know and I'll update as needed. Thanks in advance for any help offered.
 
With the breaker off remove the wires going to the spa. Verify you have the right side and they are not live before attempting this.

Then try to reset the breaker. If it trips, replace the breaker, if it doesn't you have a problem in the spa.

That's the first step
 
bb,

As jza says, the first step is to make sure the GFCI breaker does not pop on its own...

After that, it is unlikely that anything other than the heater or pumps would cause the GFCI to pop.

The heater would be the number one suspect.. followed by the circulation pump... You would have to turn the jet pump on for it to be an problem.

Do you have more than one pump? Most Spa have small circulation pump and a much larger Jet pump..

You could also disconnect any wiring going to the top side control panel, just in case water got in there.

Make sure no moisture got into the main circuit card or relay control card.. Even a little moisture can cause a GFCI to pop.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
jza1736 said:
With the breaker off remove the wires going to the spa. Verify you have the right side and they are not live before attempting this.

Then try to reset the breaker. If it trips, replace the breaker, if it doesn't you have a problem in the spa.

That's the first step
Click to expand...

Dang, I meant to do that today after work but was losing daylight and rushing to diagnose. I forgot to try that configuration. The whole setup is new 9 months ago, so I assumed that wasn't the issue, but still wanted to test the breaker. I'll try that tonight after putting my son to bed and report back.
 
Before work I tested the breaker. Without the load, but powered, the breaker acted like it should. It stayed on for a minute or two then I tested the GFI. It tripped like designed.

I wired everything back in and tested it out. It tripped a few seconds after flipping it back on.

I'd have to say its not the breaker.
 
My board has plus for everything, heater, pumps, lights... Unplug 1 at a time and turn the breaker on for each. When it doesn't trip, you know where your problem is. If you unplug everything, it could be your main board.
 
JZA,
I believe I unplugged all the big amperage draw components last night (before I posted) and it still trips. Unfortunately, there are disconnects on this old gal, but they are not easy to use. From what I can see, the main pump has some push in style connectors (think bare twisted wires like in an older AV equipment that clamp in with a flip of a lever). The heater has something that looks like relays with a bus bar and spade terminals. Nothing is really user friendly.

I found a better way to disconnect the heater when I was buttoning it up, but it may not be a safe solution. I'll see what I can do tonight.


I can get pictures and try out a few things tonight. I think I'm going to drain it to try to protect the pipes from bursting. I'm interested in saving what I can, if the price isn't crazy.

Jim R.,
I didn't forget about your questions. As far as I can see, there is only one pump. I had every panel off during placement and wiring to get the best path and find out as much as I could about where things were located. I could only find the main pump, blower and heater outside the control box. Every other area was filled with expanding foam as far as I can tell. I do see a slight bit of surface rust on the heater. I can't remember if that was there earlier in the year, but it looks so slight that I'm doubting that could be the issue.
 
Unfortunately if you disconnected everything from the board and the gfi trips, it most likely is the board.

One other thing to try is:

With the power OFF, disconnect main wires feeding the board. Tape them well with electrical tape. Make sure they are clear from any ground or metal parts.

Then turn the breaker on and see if it trips or works properly. It could be the insulation on one or more wires has gone bad.
 

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Have you examined the wiring carefully for signs of brittle insulation or critters chewing on them?

Some cracked insulation and moisture could trip the GFCI.
 
BB,

I'm a little confused about where exactly you are doing the disconnects so here's what I'd do to isolate this problem:

1. Disconnect all of the powered equipment at the main electrical panel. Put the breaker only in to the panel and see if it trips. If not the breaker is probably OK (I think you've done this)

2 Disconnect the pump and the heater at the equipment end. If this stops the breaker tripping then one of your end users is the culprit. Check them one-at-a-time to figure out which it is.

3. If you disconnect them at the equipment end and you still trip then it's the wiring. Check all the junction boxes to see if you have any wire nuts that are loose or something else obvious, if not you've most likely got a wiring problem so I'd bypass with a single new wire each conductor in-turn to isolate the problem or call an electrician.

I hope this helps.

Chris
 
Last edited:
Thank you for all the responses. We are receiving an unusually sunny day in Detroit and its 45F outside. After doing some other quick tasks today i decided to venture back into the control panel for another round. I shut down the power at the main panel, and verified all the nuts, screws and wires were in good shape. Nothing was loose, damaged or burnt. I retested the GFI breaker with repeated good results. I went into the control panel (with the power disconnected at the service panel) and disconnected everything I could find (pump, heater, interface panel (not sure the name but the top side controls), sensors and blower.

After doing this, and verifying nothing was close to arc or touch something with power, I switched the GFI back on. Low and behold it did not trip!.

I suspected the heater or the pump, so turned off the power and reconnected everything except the heater and pump. THe GFI held....

I reconnected the pump.... GFI held.

I disconnected the pump and connected the heater.....GFI popped.

After disconnecting the power once again, i carefully inspected the heater and found the foam insulation to be wet and a small area of corrosion on the back side of it. I quickly checked in the dark with a flashlight but did not see the corrosion.

From the schematic, it looks like this is a 6kW / 240v heater. Anyone got a suggestion on a replacement? It looks like two mounting bolts a few hose clamps and two electrical hook ups.

The water in the spa is a whopping 38F, so I'm be draining it while i look for a replacement heater.

Thanks again for the suggestions. hopefully someone can use this info to diagnose their own issues in the future.
 
BB,

Great to see you were able to isolate the problem. Spa specialty stores seem to carry a lot of parts even before your vintage. Sounds to me that an o ring or seal failed that let water get to your connection. Just search the net for your model number and I'm pretty sure you can find the parts.

Congrats! And good luck with the parts.

Chris
 
I did some quick searching and the exact replacement isnt available, but a more modern version with a high limit sensor is around $200 shipped.

As the last of the water was draining out it occured to me that I may not be draining everything out of the spa. I realize every design is different, but can it generally be said that just draining the water out is enough to "winterize" everything?

If it was a couple of days, i wouldn't be concerned, but with us just getting out of the holiday season, cash flow is a little tight. I may need to wait until the end of the month to order the new heater.
 
BB,

I'm the wrong person to advise on freeze protection since I'm a cold weather wimp so I live where that's not required. I'm sure there is someone that will reply quickly on this... OK freeze protect experts - over to you!

Chris
 
I'm pretty sure you would have to blow out the lines. I think you could have more damage if things freeze.

I live in NY and I would be worried if the temps were getting into the freezing range and my heater wasn't working. I haven't had to deal with that yet...
 
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