New Construction: Cathedral City CA

[Dirk]

Thanks Dirk. I saw you referenced the NPC start-up, just had not had a chance to locate it - thanks for the link.

Yes Jack's Magic Start-up is identical - I did a bit of editing to it for what I would present the PB. I'll do the meter thing again, just because the thickness of the plaster and gunite may be slightly different now, but the last time I had to refill the pool (after their required acid wash) my numbers were spot on from the original fill.

Inline, me in blue:

1 - The NPC recommends the FC to be between 1.5 to 3 ppm. I was intending to set my target to 4 and the range to be 3-7. Should I change my list to the PB to 3-7 FC?

Yes.

2 - The NPC recommends the calcium levels should be adjusted slowly over the 28 day period, but not to exceed 200 ppm. I assume that calcium is measured with the CH test.

It is.

TFP suggests a CH range of 250-350 for a chlorine pool - I assume I should change this on my list to the PB?

Calcium will collect in your pool over time (just as salt does). So start out on the low end of the range, to extend the time until your first water exchange. I'll ask Kim to recommend what to do about the number. Guard your plaster with the CSI number, and keep that in proper range by adjusting pH, using Pool Math.

3 - Confirming - add sequestrant on day 1, acid on Day 2, chlorine on Day 3 and CYA on Day 5.

Sequestrant on Day 1, acid on Day 1, chlorine on Day 3 and CYA on Day 5. But only as indicated by testing, of course. I would pay close attention to CSI everyday, using Pool Math, which is why I wouldn't wait until Day 2 to adjust pH with MA. Maybe CYA could be pushed up. Kim?

4 - Do I really need to purchase a vacuum with brushes for a pebble surface for the first month?

I didn't ever use a manual vacuum. I brushed and ran my pump 24/7. And I started using my Rebel during Week 2 (but as I said, this is somewhat controversial). It's imperative that you get written permission from the PB to start your cleaner. If anything happens to the surface, the PB can use vacuuming as the culprit and void your warranty. Regardless of "the truth," the PB has the final say on vacuuming, both the when and the with what. When in doubt, brush!

5 - Jack's Magic recommends adding 10-12 oz. of The Magenta Stuff™sequestrant per15,000 gallons of water on the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th day. I assume TFP does not recommend this - so should I remove it from my list?

I only used one bottle of sequestrant. I don't know anything more about it. I suppose if I saw evidence of a lot of plaster dust, I'd use more of it. But as I never saw a puff of plaster, ever, I never pursued or questioned using more...

Funny about the third meter read. I took my reading from a meter connected to the end of the fill hose. So my reading was not affected by use in the house. But after I had the pool resurfaced I never ran another meter test. I hadn't yet "discovered" the meter trick (using the meter at the street), and the one I used on the hose was no longer available. So I've always wondered if the new pebble finish added or subtracted from the original read. The bottom line is, when it comes to dosing a pool, close enough is close enough.

Good luck with the presentation to the PB!

 

[kimkats]

OnBalance is the number one person for start ups. He says the FILL water needs to be balanced as it goes into the pool! I have added a couple of links before to help with how to do this as well as the different ways to start up new plaster.

http://www.nptpool.com/sites/nptpool.com/.../NPC_SwimmingPoolStart-UpProcedures.pdf This is my "easy" go to for start up.

Now here is the hardest start up but it is the best for the long life of the plaster: The Bicarb Start Pool Help

Here is something a little bit different but along the same lines: Pool Plaster Start-up Alternative

As for the manual vaccum............I think every pool should have one for the spot cleaning and such. You do not have to have one BUT it is said to not use any wheels in the pool for about 30 days.....I have only see one pool where it did cause "tire tracks" when some one used their robot within a couple of days of being plastered. That was enough for me to say NOPE to robots in the beginning.

Let us know which way you want to go and we can support you in that direction.

Kim

 

[bdavis466]

The Orenda method is not a good choice based on the lack of rainfall and high evaporation you get. If you went with this method, my bet is that you'll be needing to replace the pool water next season.

I doubt the builder would buy off on the bicarbonate startup since this is a redo and he doesn't want to take any chances.

The vinyl liner vacuum heads don't work very well on plaster and they are terrible on pebble. A wheeled vacuum head should be fine to use after just a couple days on a pebble surface.

If you are going to add liquid chlorine then make sure there is CYA in the water. Trichlor pucks in my eyes are ideal for startups since they slowly release chlorine and CYA proportionately.

 

[Yorker]

Thanks Dirk, Kim and Brian!

The pebble is now scheduled for Mon/Tues or Tues/Wed. I'm reviewing all your input and links and tweaking my approach to the PB. TFP and ya'all are the best.

 

[kimkats]

The Orenda method is not a good choice based on the lack of rainfall and high evaporation you get. If you went with this method, my bet is that you'll be needing to replace the pool water next season.

I doubt the builder would buy off on the bicarbonate startup since this is a redo and he doesn't want to take any chances.

The vinyl liner vacuum heads don't work very well on plaster and they are terrible on pebble. A wheeled vacuum head should be fine to use after just a couple days on a pebble surface.

If you are going to add liquid chlorine then make sure there is CYA in the water. Trichlor pucks in my eyes are ideal for startups since they slowly release chlorine and CYA proportionately.

Anything said by Brian is a go for me! Do what HE says as he is the "Master Pool Builder" where I am just a key board jockey LOL Thanks for the input B!

Kim

 

[Dirk]

I was curious about why the NPC Startup is holding off on the CYA until a few days after the chlorine. Is that type of acid any more harmful to curing than MA? CYA will affect the pH, but as long as you back off on the MA to maintain a good pH... what's the difference? Anybody?

An algae outbreak on brand new plaster/pebble is pretty bad during startup. Maintaining FC is critical, and doing so without CYA is pretty tough. My startup was in October, so the heat wasn't so bad. What are you supposed to do in mid-summer without CYA? Dose every hour?

 

[kimkats]

Dirk that is a very good question. I wonder who we could ask? Will the NPC talk to us mere mortals? Hummmmmmmm I see a phone call or two in my future!

Kim

 

[bdavis466]

It's because the industry still doesn't recognize the relationship between chlorine and cya.

Just because the NPC is the supposed Authority for pool plaster doesn't necessarily mean that they use best practices. The bicarbonate startup is a perfect example of that and Kim Skinner has argued his case with them for many years and gotten nowhere even though it's backed by sound science and factual evidence.

 

[Dirk]

So can the OP add CYA on Day 3 along with the chlorine?

 

[Yorker]

This mornings questions:

Dirk ... What does OP stand for?

Brian ... I started to use the chlorine pucks about a week before we went on a 10 day vacation (short term, just to insure that we did not get algae and give our PB cause to not replace our pebble). Our numbers at that point were FC: 6.5, CC: 0, pH:7.5, CYA: 40, CSI: -.23, Temp: 90.

Our neighbor brushed and vacuumed the pool 3 times while we were gone, and asked him to to monitor the chlorine the pucks were adding and only add MA. When we returned, the pools numbers were: FC: 8.0, CC: 0, pH: 7.2, CYA 70, CSI: -.64, Temp: 83.

Your suggestion to use the pucks for chlorine any CYA during startup sounds good. But it raises a few questions for me:

1 - Since the sequestrant is supposed to be added the day after the fill, and the manufacture says absolutely no chlorine should be added for 48 hours. I wonder about the time the pool completes the fill (last time it was about 9pm), and with our current 100°+ temps I should get the sequestrant in as early as possible the next day. Still that leaves the water without any chlorine for over 48 hours. How safe is that? I'm not sure I can get the PB to agree with that.

2 - If I use the pucks, I imagine that as my daily test show the CYA increasing, should I switch to liquid chlorine when the CYA reaches 30?

This PB does many, many pools down here, a few at the same time. They are very sure (cocky) of what they do, however they told me that their two visits a week was all that was needed during the first month. Never gave me instructions/recommendations of what I should do in between their 2 weekly visits. I question that they know/care about the NPC or their recommendations.

We became friends with the owners of one of the builds the PB had just completed and showed us during a tour of their recent jobs. A couple weeks ago we learned that they continued to use the PB for pool maintenance after the first month, they too now have stains like we did, and the pool also was allowed to turn green.

I will be so glad when we are no longer tied to this company.

 

[Yorker]

Update and looking for input.

The owner of the plaster/pebble company that the PB subbed used for the job just called me asking what color of Stonescape Mini Pebble we wanted.

I said we decided on Salt & Pepper, instead of the slightly darker Aqua White. He was very pleasant, but wanted me to know in advance that there was no guarantee that the same issue might happen (darker pebbles grouping together forming an uneven appearance).

I reminded him he told me when he was here for the acid wash that THAT problem was only with the blue pebbles and does not with the black. He just repeated it could happen with all colors and said it would not happen if we went with just white pebbles.

He previously told be that because of the “problem” with the blue pebbles, he put less blue pebbles in. I was under the impression that the pebble color was pre mixed from Stonescape, and not just ingredients that the plasters mix together. Does anyone here know anything about this?

As a reminder - I'm referencing the dark blue lines along the top of the photo.

 

[kimkats]

OP=you the Original poster

Use Pool Math to see how much CYA each puck adds to your water. No need to test for CYA daily as the rise is small and slow with pucks. I would add enough with powder to at least get it to 30 from the get go.

Your new friends pool is showing why we do not like pool services having control of the pool. If they cannot be there every day doing tests and adding stuff as needed then you risk the same thing happening to your new plaster.

As for the mixture and color.......they are trying to tell you they just don't have the skills needed to apply this kind of plaster I don't know what to tell you to do as I am at a loss. IF your PB has another plaster crew he used maybe they could do a better job.

 

[Yorker]

OP .. who knew that was me? Thanks Kim.

I highly doubt they will use another plasterer - but I'll talk with them. This guy said he was loosing $3000 redoing this ... "so I want to do my best to make you happy".

We will most likely just go with white pebble to avoid any risk.

I asked the pebble guy a couple questions about caring for the pebble the first month. I asked if it needed to be brushed daily and his response was "no, that's not important". So the builder does not do it or recommend it for the start up, and the plaster company say's it's not important.

geeze louise!

 

[kimkats]

And there you have it

 

[riley00dog]

Hmm. Well my salt and pepper mini pebble is perfect with the exception of a couple of faint vertical streaks that happened during the fill from the hose turning upside down into a fountain. If they can’t get salt and pepper correct then they’re not good at their job.

 

[bdavis466]

I always add the sequestrant while the pool is filling and there is a foot or two of water in the pool.

2 days without chlorine shouldn't be an issue

Brushing isn't important on a Pebble pool startup. It certainly doesn't hurt anything but after the acid and pressure wash, it isn't doing much.

 

[Dirk]

What it came down to for me...

During my startup process, I was looking for the most I could do, any and every little thing. Or big thing. Unless I could be shown and convinced that any part of the process had a finite limit (like the exact right amount of CYA, for example), then I overdid it. Brushing doesn't hurt? I brushed more than I had to. Running the pump doesn't hurt? Then I ran it more than I had to. Testing and maintaining levels every day isn't too much? Then I did so every day. More than once a day sometimes. I could see why a PB would not use this MO. They're looking for the least they can do, to minimize cost and maximize profit. That's fine. But that is the potential conflict of interest. I wanted my pebble to look and feel the best it possibly could, and to last as long as it possibly can. I knew ahead of time that the first few weeks were the most critical to those ends, so I just did whatever I could think of, regardless of a little extra labor, or electricity, or reagents, to assure myself that I did everything I possibly could to achieve my goals. I also knew ahead of time that the results of some of my efforts would not be obvious for years or decades. After 20 years, or 30, or whatever, when my pebble is falling apart, I'll be able to say, well, I did the best I could. Literally. I won't be looking back at any point and be wishing I had done a better job at startup. I know I couldn't have...

IMO... A PB's primary motivation is to get off the job and get paid, so he can get on to the next one. His secondary motivation is to do what's necessary to get the pool to last the length of the warranty without complaint or claim by the PO. Beyond those two things, everything else probably takes a back seat... I took charge of my startup because I didn't trust my contractor to care about my pool more than I did. I'm not saying there aren't PBs out there somewhere that seek to perform better than I'm suggesting. I'd like to think there are. Here at TFP, we mostly hear about those that fall short somehow (people generally don't post on internet forums unless something went wrong), so we have plenty of examples of PBs that don't do everything they should. So each PO should ask themselves: which PB do I have? One that is motivated to do the best job possible? And does he even know how to do that? Or do I have one that falls short and needs to be supervised?

 

[Yorker]

I always add the sequestrant while the pool is filling and there is a foot or two of water in the pool.

2 days without chlorine shouldn't be an issue

Brushing isn't important on a Pebble pool startup. It certainly doesn't hurt anything but after the acid and pressure wash, it isn't doing much.

Thanks for that info Brian. May I ask for your impression of why my last pebble (Agua Cool) had distinct tonal irregularities in the surface (like the dark blue lines along the edges shone in my post #631)?

The plaster/pebble guy says he has no control over the different colored pebbles doing that, for that reason we're considering the safest thing is to go with Stonescape White Mini Pebble.

Also, is it normal for a repebble to be applied to a surface like this?

 

[bdavis466]

The rougher the surface the better the adhesion.

The discoloration, was that the actual Pebbles or it was the plaster cream?

The different stonescapes colors don't come pre-mixed. There's a recipe where you add a certain amount of each color Pebble in addition to the plaster to get the different colors. if those are all the same color pebbles in the same location then the batch wasn't mixed well enough and even then I find that hard to believe that is possible.

 

[Yorker]

The rougher the surface the better the adhesion.

Then that seems like a good thing. I assume they will clear out more of the scatted broken gunite at as well as there appears there are still small areas along the walls that could separate and cause delamination.

The discoloration, was that the actual Pebbles or it was the plaster cream?

That's what I was told, but did not inspect it close enough to tell. There were basically two types of blotches, light tanish and the blueish ones. As you may recall there was lots of sand in the pool the morning of the acid wash, and then two days later a much large amount of sand blew into the pool and they allowed it to sit there over the entire weekend. (photos on this page of my thread). and (this one).

The different stonescapes colors don't come pre-mixed. There's a recipe where you add a certain amount of each color Pebble in addition to the plaster to get the different colors. if those are all the same color pebbles in the same location then the batch wasn't mixed well enough and even then I find that hard to believe that is possible.

Good to know that it is not pre mixed. The pebble guy first told me that he warned the PB that there was "problem" with blue pebbles in Aqua Cool and he suggested Aqua White because it had no blue pebbles. He also told me that he purposely used less blue in the mix. Of course he now says that this blotchy, uneven tone is possible with all colors and suggests the white pebble color to reduce that risk.

As long as we have light toned/colored pool were fine - not having distinct marks and blotches is most important to us. I can't imagine my PB will go with another plaster company at this point. Hopefully this guy will be extra cautious this time.

Our yard has no exposed sand now, but in heavy wind some sand from neighbors yards to blow in, a fraction of what used to before the landscaping was completed. If some sand gets blown in the evening after they lay the pebble down. Is there anything I can do before the acid wash the next day? I would have no problem getting up in the middle of the night with a shop vac.