Chrolrine with Ozone

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GregTR

0
May 9, 2016
25
Dallas, TX
Builder installed an ozonator and I'm not sure if it's helping or hurting.

I have a variable speed pump which I run 23 hours a day at 38 gpm (measured with a flow meter) so I turn about 52k gallon a day at about 260 W so about $0.60/day at $0.11/kWh.

However I'm also having a hard time maintaining FC at anything reasonable, I'm using about 3 PPM a day which is over a gallon of bleach so it's close to $3/day.

What level of FC should I be running with the ozonator? Is the ozone destroying my FC essentially hurting my wallet? At close to $4/day running the pool is no cheap endeavor.
 
Taken straight out of Alternative sanitizers and pools--The Truth!!

What about ozone and/or UV? Can't that reduce or eliminate the need for chlorine? In a word, No, and for a very simple reason. Ozone and UV have NO residual effect so again, a residual sanitizer is still needed. The only place these will kill pathogens is in the contact chamber (where the water is exposed to the ozone or UV), not in the pool. Ozone will destroy chlorine but will oxidize organics so it's a two edge sword. You will generally have higher chlorine consumption with ozone than without and it does not allow you to run lower chlorine levels because there is no residual effect from the ozone. The higher bather to water ratio in a spa makes ozone much more useful there than in a pool because it does oxidize organics. Ozone is also toxic in large enough quantities to actually sanitize pool water. For many, ozone is more useful in bromine systems since it will activate the bromide into bromine sanitizer so it works with bromine instead of against it. However, it will cause bromates to form and they are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water!
​

Unplug the thing for a few days and see what it does to your FC consumption.
 
Welcome to the TFP pool! :splash:

Ozone is one of those things that sounds really great, but the reality may be something less.

First, using ozone does not allow you to run at a lower FC level. Second, yes - ozone consumes your chlorine.

From an old post here (but often quoted) - Alternative sanitizers and pools--The Truth!!

What about ozone and/or UV? Can't that reduce or eliminate the need for chlorine? In a word, No, and for a very simple reason. Ozone and UV have NO residual effect so again, a residual sanitizer is still needed. The only place these will kill pathogens is in the contact chamber (where the water is exposed to the ozone or UV), not in the pool. Ozone will destroy chlorine but will oxidize organics so it's a two edge sword. You will generally have higher chlorine consumption with ozone than without and it does not allow you to run lower chlorine levels because there is no residual effect from the ozone. The higher bather to water ratio in a spa makes ozone much more useful there than in a pool because it does oxidize organics. Ozone is also toxic in large enough quantities to actually sanitize pool water. For many, ozone is more useful in bromine systems since it will activate the bromide into bromine sanitizer so it works with bromine instead of against it. However, it will cause bromates to form and they are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water!
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The "average" chlorine usage for a pool is 2 - 4 ppm of chlorine a day and you are right in that zone. Turn off the ozone and you may save a little. Dial back the time on that pump (23 hours is a lot of filtering time) and you will save a little.

You should maintain you FC level based on the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]

You could conduct an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to verify nothing is "living" in the water.

You have a big pool and big pools have a cost.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I found those posts already (I do use the search feature) but as you know, I was hoping for a different answer so I asked anyway :)

I lost 1.4 PPM overnight with ozone running. I guess nothing is really out of the ordinary here, my last pool was an SWG with a "mere" 12.5K gallon volume so running a non SWG that's 3x the size is taking some getting used to.
 
GregTR said:
Thanks for the feedback. I found those posts already (I do use the search feature) but as you know, I was hoping for a different answer so I asked anyway :)

I lost 1.4 PPM overnight with ozone running. I guess nothing is really out of the ordinary here, my last pool was an SWG with a "mere" 12.5K gallon volume so running a non SWG that's 3x the size is taking some getting used to.
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1.4 loss sounds high to me. I would re-run that with the ozone turned off.
 
GregTR said:
Thanks for the feedback. I found those posts already (I do use the search feature) but as you know, I was hoping for a different answer so I asked anyway :)

I lost 1.4 PPM overnight with ozone running. I guess nothing is really out of the ordinary here, my last pool was an SWG with a "mere" 12.5K gallon volume so running a non SWG that's 3x the size is taking some getting used to.
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Greg,

Overnight you should not lose any FC... So either your ozone-nator is eating it or you have something in your water...

I suggest you unplug your "Magic" ozone machine and run an OCLT and see what is what... See this link. Overnight Chlorine Loss Test Make sure you are not adding any FC from your Stenner or any other source when running the OCLT..

Thanks,


Jim R.
 
Jim,

I guess I didn't perform a true OCLT, I estimated my FC after my last add at night based on a pre-add reading and the chlorine added and I measured in the morning around 11AM so it was already full sun for a good couple of hours.

I'll perform a true test tomorrow evening. I've been so busy with the yard I only have time to test and add chemicals after 11pm so tomorrow I'll try to do all that just before sunset so I can get a true reading just after sunset.
 
Well I did a test last night. Shut off the Ozone, removed the tri-chlor tablets and from 9PM until 4:30AM I lost 0.6 PPM, went from 5.6 to 5.0, Me and my daughter did spend an hour in the pool last night just before I took the evening measurement, I'm not sure if that would have any effect on a pool my size. Water temps are close to 90F this morning. My CYA is not quite 30, it's a new pool and I'm still going through the tri-chlor tables my builder left for me so I figured it would gradually increase a bit as I go through the box, however it might not be worth the wait and maybe I should raise it some the old fashioned way.

I haev kept the Ozone off for today so we'll see how much more I'll lose by tonight when I'll add chlorine back in, open the ozone and see what difference it makes, if any.
 
GregTR said:
Well I did a test last night. Shut off the Ozone, removed the tri-chlor tablets and from 9PM until 4:30AM I lost 0.6 PPM, went from 5.6 to 5.0, Me and my daughter did spend an hour in the pool last night just before I took the evening measurement, I'm not sure if that would have any effect on a pool my size. Water temps are close to 90F this morning. My CYA is not quite 30, it's a new pool and I'm still going through the tri-chlor tables my builder left for me so I figured it would gradually increase a bit as I go through the box, however it might not be worth the wait and maybe I should raise it some the old fashioned way.

I have kept the Ozone off for today so we'll see how much more I'll lose by tonight when I'll add chlorine back in, open the ozone and see what difference it makes, if any.
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Well, we have answered a question here. It would appear that your ozone is consuming 0.8 overnight, so with you running the pump 23 hours a day easily 1.5 or more of your FC loss is to ozone.

Obviously it is your pool and your choice, but if it were mine I would leave the ozone disconnected and dial back the pump run time. Pool School - Determine Pump Run Time

Also, it appears you are using 25 mL sample for 0.2 ppm accuracy. You can go ahead and use 10 mL sample for 0.5 ppm accuracy. It will save you reagents and is close enough for us.
 

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Tim,

I left ozone off for the remainder of today and I will test the levels at 8PM tonight again to see what my FC consumption was today during the day with no ozone. Then I'll add chlorine, measure again at 9PM, turn on the ozone and perform the same test tomorrow for consistency to see what I get. This is the only way I can see the true effect of the ozone on chlorine.

As for using 25ml, I usually test with 10ml samples but I figured for this particular test I'll go with the higher resolution. Once I'm done with this, I'll revert to the usual 10ml test with 0.5 ppm resolution as that is indeed close enough.
 
So I tested the pool chemistry at 8PM tonight and my FC was 1.0 so my pool dropped 4 PPM since 4AM. I added 3 lbs of cal-hypo 70% and at 9PM my FC was 7.4 PPM. I turned on the Ozone and I'll take measurements in the morning as well as tomorrow night and see how the Ozone affects my values.

It seems my pool is losing 4.6 PPM a day which is pretty brutal on a 35K pool as it's 2.6 gallon of 6% bleach a day.

I don't know how anyone can have a once a week pool service without algae in their pool.

Is there anything I can do to reduce my chlorine consumption? My dad suggested a UV protective cover that would help. I'm not sure if the cost/benefit of the cover is worth it to me but I'll investigate. Bot for the interesting part, I'll post tomorrow's numbers to see how they work out with the Ozonator running.
 
CYA is just under 30. Last night with ozone on I lost 0.8 PPM so the ozone cost me an additional 0.2 PPM compared to no ozone from the night before. Hardly the excessive loss some anecdotes claim. We'll see how much it drops by tonight to get info for the full day.
 
GregTR said:
CYA is just under 30. Last night with ozone on I lost 0.8 PPM so the ozone cost me an additional 0.2 PPM compared to no ozone from the night before. Hardly the excessive loss some anecdotes claim. We'll see how much it drops by tonight to get info for the full day.
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Not as much as the previous answers led me to believe, but I really like folks like you who are willing to take the time and prove/disprove things scientifically. Thanks!

Understand, that like a SWCG Ozone systems have a finite life. At some point (1 - 5 years maybe) either the UV lamp or the Corona Discharge will need to be replaced and the tubing and valves degrade and will need replacement at some point.

One of my previous hot tubs came with an ozone system. About a year after I purchased the tub I opened the side to do some work and discovered that the tube form the ozone was not even connected. Apparently when installed, they broke the nipple off the side of the ozone generator that the hose attaches to. From the location, I think it was done inadvertently when the electric cable was routed thru the tub. I never knew it wasn't working. I guess thats a long way of saying I like methods I can see and test for.

What I hate is the folks who "sell" ozone as a replacement for chlorine or bromine. I found one site (a large reputable on line retailer) that was proposing if you bought one of their small systems you could run FC at 0.5 with weekly shocking. If you bought their large system you coul deven skip the 0.5 residual and just shock monthly. But they said you may need to use some of the following products:

algaecides
mineral system
algaecide
clarifier
enzyme

I'll stick with chlorine
 
Tim,

Make no mistake, I'm a bleach guy myself. The ozonator I have (DEL Ozone 50 (EC-20)) does not have UV, only Corona Discharge. I will not be replacing it once it serves its expected life, about 5 years. I should have asked for a discount rather than an install of the system, I think my builder put one of these along with a Nature 2 on every pool they build. Funny thing is they didn't even have it plumbed right the first time, it took involvement of their service manager and me sending them e-mails with manuals to plumb it the way it would work for both spa/pool and at any speed of my variable speed pump. One of the techs just set the minimum speed on the VSP to 2600 and called it good. So when you know more about the product than the technician installing it you might be better off doing it yourself.

The most disturbing thing for me regarding Ozone is that there is no documentation on any manufacturer's site just how much effect Ozone really has on your pool and how much lower chlorine levels you can run with one. There is absolutely nothing of fact that I found regarding this matter which to me means there is no true fact based consensus on the benefits of it, if any. They sell it to you but if you still have to run chlorine (which I firmly believe you do) then what is the purpose of the Ozone?

I can't wait to see the results tonight.
 
GregTR said:
The most disturbing thing for me regarding Ozone is that there is no documentation on any manufacturer's site just how much effect Ozone really has on your pool and how much lower chlorine levels you can run with one. There is absolutely nothing of fact that I found regarding this matter which to me means there is no true fact based consensus on the benefits of it, if any. They sell it to you but if you still have to run chlorine (which I firmly believe you do) then what is the purpose of the Ozone?
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That they won't document anything tells me their attorneys are involved.

The science is a fact, ozone kills lots of stuff. It even kills some really bad stuff better/faster than chlorine IF that bad stuff actually comes in contact with the ozone. And there lies the rub. You can't guarantee full exposure of the ozone to every drop of water in the pool. Even pools with chlorine can have areas of low circulation where stuff can grow. In my pool I use both the circulation of the returns/skimmers as well as running a robot every day to make sure the water is mixed well.

Here is an example of a body of water (white water training center) that relied on UV instead of chlorine and it resulted in a death.

The attorneys for legitimate "alternative" sanitizer companies will never let them put anything in writing.

U.S. National Whitewater Center acknowledges filter flaw following death of Ohio teenager infected by amoeba | Charlotte Observer
 
GregTR said:
Tim,


The most disturbing thing for me regarding Ozone is that there is no documentation on any manufacturer's site just how much effect Ozone really has on your pool and how much lower chlorine levels you can run with one.
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Bottom right hand corner of Page 3 of this manufacturer manual says, ".5-1.0". I looked because that is what Leslie's Pool told me and I wanted to confirm. This manual is not for the brand that was installed by my builder but it concurs what Leslie's told me.

https://www.delozone.com/files/Genesis-CD45-installation.pdf


Update:
I found this on the manufacturer of my Ozonator's website. "Maintain a 1.0-1.5 ppm as a backup sanitizer." As stated on first infographic from the bottom of this page.
https://www.waterquality.net/ozone-info
 
On this forum, Leslie's is far from being an authoritative resource. Daily, we help folks get their pools back in order after Leslie's has misguided them.

Your particular place may be good for you but across the country, Leslie's approach to pool care is quite lacking.
 

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