Help with Stubborn Cloudy Green

[Texas Splash]

Since you are quite certain the CYA is not over 50, I'd SLAM using that CYA and keep the FC at 20. Even that was being generous from what you described about the dot, but using 60 or 70 for a CYA just doesn't seem to be reasonable based on what you described. So we'll go with 50 (SLAM of 20), and continue the process of 24/7 circulation and daily brushing/vacuuming as needed. If you find yourself doing a lot of backwashing over the weekend, you might check the CYA again Mon or Tues. And hey, don't be so hard on yourself about that CYA test or any other facet of this process. One thing I've learned by being here for a while, it's very easy to critique others when we're sitting behind a laptop, but we're not there. Sure, we've done our own SLAMs and stuff, but every pool is unique. Sometimes we get a very good picture from the owner of what's happening, other times it's a wild goose chase. You've given us good descriptions of what's happening, and the pics have helped.

Based on your set-up and very simple pool layout, a SLAM would seem to be an easy thing, but something's holding it up. We'll know more when you get a chance to look in that filter. Since you literally have nothing else in the pool, it's either gunk settled in the filter holding you back or 100% a chemical issue - if not the CYA then something else that may have been in the water previously. We'll see. So hang in there, keep-up the great work, and try not to stare at the water looking for changes. Give it time and give yourself a break.

Hey, I don't recall asking or seeing it earlier ..... was your pool closed over the winter? Also, when did you take ownership of the pool? I'm thinking ahead (one more trick up my sleeve) but want to make sure I have a better understanding of the pool's background.

 

[madyogi]

Okay, looked over your pics, funandsun, and thought about it a bit. Cash is not so much an issue for me, especially if we're talking $50 or so, but time and know-how are. I don't know if I'll have time to deal with it this weekend, because it sounds like I really need to devote a whole day to the job. I started another thread in the filters section. Probably better to discuss this "nuclear option" over there while I struggle through the SLAM and clearing process here.

 

[madyogi]

Took ownership late summer 2016. Pool looked great. Previous owner had been using trichlor pucks and left us a bunch, but my buddy at work told me about TFP, so I started on that train pretty much straight away. Only used the pucks when we were going out of town. Closed the pool in late October 2016, just raising it to shock level, draining below returns and draining pump and filter. We inherited a great cover that attaches with springs around the pool, so put that on. Opening in 2017 took less than two weeks. Looked great all summer. Only thing I did different in closing last fall was to put a WinterPill in, because my wife saw somebody on Facebook saying it worked great for them. I frankly forgot about that thing until just going through this little history. It was only about the size of a softball. Could that be the reason this is so painful?!

 

[Texas Splash]

The Winter Pill seems to just be something to control enzymes, should be no big worries there, however there doesn't seem to be a lot of info available. We'll leave that alone for now. When you closed, no antifreeze or anything else was used? Just that pill?

No doubt if the previous owners kept stocking the pool with tabs, the CYA was through the roof. Even a partial drain or two would not lower it enough I wouldn't think, at least not if they used tabs exclusively each season. Interesting your last opening was so smooth. Crazy huh? How are you doing with the R-0013 CYA reagent? Still have enough for 2-3 tests or so? The reason I ask ... and this is really a crazy test if you will ....... but I would like for you to forget about everything you know about your previous CYA tests and do a diluted CYA test as outlined on the TFP Pool School - CYA starting at step #8. Now if you do that and return with a "diluted" result CYA result of 30 or so, then there at no worries. But if you comes back with something higher on the diluted test, say 30, 40, or more, then we found our problem. Like I said, it's kind of an obsessive curiosity for me since the owners before used tabs and you only lowered a little water. But I don't want you to use-up your last R-0013 doing it.

 

[splashpad]

... I'm fine with assuming I have no clue how to execute the CYA test properly ...

... One thing I've learned by being here for a while, it's very easy to critique others when we're sitting behind a laptop, but we're not there...

I want to say straight out I apologize for any directness that may come across as harshness, I'm just as puzzled about the issue and trying to pinpoint anything that is "controllable" to help you out of this SLAM plateau :handshake:

You've given us good descriptions of what's happening, and the pics have helped.
Based on your set-up and very simple pool layout, a SLAM would seem to be an easy thing, but something's holding it up. We'll know more when you get a chance to look in that filter. Since you literally have nothing else in the pool, it's either gunk settled in the filter holding you back or 100% a chemical issue - if not the CYA then something else that may have been in the water previously. We'll see. So hang in there, keep-up the great work, and try not to stare at the water looking for changes. Give it time and give yourself a break.

100!

 

[madyogi]

No worries splashpad. I'm in the same boat with everyone else here, just trying to get my dang pool clean, and I don't have any problem admitting that CYA test has always perplexed me :sad:

No antifreeze last year to winterize, and I do have probably 4 tests worth of the CYA reagent, so I'll do the diluted test after work.

 

[Texas Splash]

so I'll do the diluted test after work.

Only if it's not too late okay. If you have to wait until tomorrow that's fine. I want the AR sun to be high and strong at your back - right over your shoulder. Oh, and to give you an idea about the CYA test ... last night I did it at about 6:00PM. Still very hot and bright, but the sun was at a lower angle I suppose. My CYA was 30 which shocked me because last I checked it was 50. Bought some stabilizer today, but before adding decided to test again at about 2:00PM - much higher sun angle. This time my CYA was 40 after 4x views. You would think a yesterday's sun at a lower angle would make the dot disappear quicker, but for me (today anyways) it was the opposite. My point being it is a bit of a bugger to do. When I test, I like the sun to be close to its highest point in the day and I view the sample 3-5 times to be sure I have a good result. So either later today or tomorrow we'll see how that diluted result looks.

 

[madyogi]

Yeah, I thought of that, Tex. It would probably be better to wait until tomorrow.

I'm going to wager that today's test at lunch was pretty definitive, though. AR sun high in the sky behind my shoulder, tube at my waist, repeated 3 times, going line by line and trying not to stare. Came out 40 every time, but could be stretched to 50 I suppose.

Still, I'll do the diluted test tomorrow if the sun comes out strong, just to be sure. Till then, keep SLAMing, brushing, and pumping/filtering. Maybe I'll be able to get everything together for a deep clean of the filter tomorrow too, who knows ...

 

[splashpad]

One more thing to try, especially if your FC level is higher, is to add some R-0007 drops to the water sample before mixing with the reagent. That will dechlorinate the water. Chlorine bound to CYA probably won't form melamine cyanurate so the CYA test could read low by as much as the FC level (worst-case).

I finally found what I was looking for and why I was leaning towards (a possibly) underestimated CYA level.

I just got off the phone with Rebecca. She tested the current batch of R-7065 and opened a new container that has not been re bottled yet.
In both instances, she got 50 ppm. I have tested with her.....she and I test the same and get the same results.
I will say this. Over the years, I have found that correct results are best obtained when you can see the dot just the tiniest bit. If I continue to add reagent to the viewtube, I will get a falsely high test. I know Taylor calls for total obscuration of the dot but my experience tells me that I will be too high if I go that far.

I have done a calibration test with that 50 PPM cya reagent about 1 month ago and it reads 50.
But it did re-think the way I interpret the test.
With back to full sun and vial at waist high looking down:
The best way to describe it is YES you do see a little of the dot but you cannot see
the full circular edge "SHAPE" of the dot. you see just a little hint of the dot within the cloud of circulating solution...nothing more...at 50ppm
When the dot is barely visible and distorted from the liquid..you are done pouring.

 

[madyogi]

I finally found what I was looking for and why I was leaning towards (a possibly) underestimated CYA level.

Hmmm ... That is an interesting tidbit, for sure!

 

[funandsun]

Hmmm ... That is an interesting tidbit, for sure!

madyogi, you are gonna be a CYA test reading expert when this is said and done. Probably worth throwing one of the predetermined CYA results in the next cart for checkout, comparing a known known can't be a bad thing for you to lock it down once and for all.

Either that or I am going to start a madyogi GoFundme page for R-0013 for you.

 

[kellyfair]

Hmmm ... That is an interesting tidbit, for sure!

Very much so, and goes back to the glance versus look. Because if I look for longer than a millisecond, I can make out the shadow of the dot.

Makes me wonder if a dark gray dot would be better...

 

[madyogi]

Okay, not much changed yesterday. Still cloudy green, but you can definitely see the brush at the bottom of the deep end, though you can't make out the pebble pattern on the liner after about halfway down to the deep end. I'm seriously coming to the end of my rope on this.

One thing to note: I got new bags for my polaris yesterday, and ran it again overnight, and I noticed it had some sand in it. I didn't really notice sand collecting in the pool last year. I may have seen a bit in the Polaris bag, but it didn't seem to accumulate in large quantities. This seemed significant, because it's probably a tablespoon of sand in a completely clean bag after an overnight run. What might this be caused by, and could it be contributing to my troubles?

Also, do I run the risk of damaging any equipment by running FC at 20+ for multiple weeks?

Also, I'm planning to get the items I need to deep clean the sand today, if yard work doesn't consume too much of my time. What additionally should I be looking at given the polaris/sand issue? Should I expect a problem with laterals, and plan to order replacement for that?

I'm a bit overwhelmed and frustrated at this point but committed to seeing this through. Thanks for all the help so far, and for any yet to come!

 

[splashpad]

Okay, not much changed yesterday. Still cloudy green, but you can definitely see the brush at the bottom of the deep end, though you can't make out the pebble pattern on the liner after about halfway down to the deep end. I'm seriously coming to the end of my rope on this.

One thing to note: I got new bags for my polaris yesterday, and ran it again overnight, and I noticed it had some sand in it. I didn't really notice sand collecting in the pool last year. I may have seen a bit in the Polaris bag, but it didn't seem to accumulate in large quantities. This seemed significant, because it's probably a tablespoon of sand in a completely clean bag after an overnight run. What might this be caused by, and could it be contributing to my troubles?

Also, I'm planning to get the items I need to deep clean the sand today, if yard work doesn't consume too much of my time. What additionally should I be looking at given the polaris/sand issue? Should I expect a problem with laterals, and plan to order replacement for that?

I'm a bit overwhelmed and frustrated at this point but committed to seeing this through. Thanks for all the help so far, and for any yet to come!

Sounds like you've identified a filter issue =) If you are up for it, time to check out your sand state! (and pics, we love pics!)
(I think you've been linked to this info & post already, but just in case Pool School - Maintenance and Cleaning of Pool Filters AND Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter )

Hang in there, everyone is here for support! You'll get through this and (hopefully) never have to do it again!

Also, do I run the risk of damaging any equipment by running FC at 20+ for multiple weeks?

Not with CYA at your level (40/50) and not if it's dropping, which means the FC is being used up, not staying @ 20 until additions are made =)

 

[funandsun]

I'm seriously coming to the end of my rope on this.

Hang in there madyogi, a solution will become apparent. Just like Splashpad said, you WILL get through this, you have a lot of talented eyes looking at this with you.

One thing to note: I got new bags for my polaris yesterday, and ran it again overnight, and I noticed it had some sand in it. I didn't really notice sand collecting in the pool last year. I may have seen a bit in the Polaris bag, but it didn't seem to accumulate in large quantities. This seemed significant, because it's probably a tablespoon of sand in a completely clean bag after an overnight run. What might this be caused by, and could it be contributing to my troubles?

It takes 2 working processes to Clear A Green Pool (SLAM and Filtration). Each of those have subparts that work together adding back to the Sum to arrive at SLAM or Filtration.

Both sides are suspect but no charges filed at the moment, thankfully it does not take much to correct either of these and this is (as best as I recall) your first look at your Sand (like boots on the ground, eyes in the container, hands in the sand) yet you have tirelessly worked on the SLAM side.

I look forward to your PICTURES and report when time allows.

 

[splashpad]

Okay, not much changed yesterday. Still cloudy green, but you can definitely see the brush at the bottom of the deep end, though you can't make out the pebble pattern on the liner after about halfway down to the deep end. I'm seriously coming to the end of my rope on this.

I'm a bit overwhelmed and frustrated at this point but committed to seeing this through. Thanks for all the help so far, and for any yet to come!

I'm going to offer a band-aid suggestion (that will likely get blasted, lol) Clorox PoolSpa Super Water Clarifier, 32 oz - Walmart.com ... It WILL add a small amount of ammonia and other "things" to your water (but at your high FC you won't "notice" it), but it works miracles on "unexplained" cloudy water. (personal experience, we used @ 1/4 recommended dose) It might give you a morale boost to hang in there, as long you understand it's not part of the normal SLAM Process process (though your SLAM Process has been anything but normal up to this point). Then continue to follow SLAM Process protocol with your renewed enthusiasm!

I'm offering it as a suggestion/idea... since you will be cleaning the sand filter in a short time as well. (do this before you clean the filter, if you want to try it)

 

[madyogi]

Thanks for the off script suggestion, splashpad! I may actually do that later today, but here's a quick update.

Got my MPV off by cutting a long straight run in the return pipe, disconnecting from the backwash hose and the pump, and draining some water from the system. Turns out the sand looks pretty darn good, but IT'S BARELY HALF FULL OF SAND, IF THAT.

I assume that's going to reduce the efficiency of the filtering, and I should add more sand after cleaning?

Also, I assume that's an indication the previous owners didn't have enough sand in there to begin with, or I have a crack in a lateral, or some combination of both? Like I said, there is a small amount of sand showing up in Polaris bags, but I didn't notice anything significant building up in the pool while everything was nice and sparkly clean last year.

My plan right now is to grab some lunch, get a few bags of sand, and maybe that clarifier from Wal-Mart, all while waiting for a response or two here on the forum. I'm sorta leaning toward just finishing up the plumbing fix after lunch, and putting things back together, then run the clarifier through overnight before disassembling everything for a legit deep clean and adding extra sand in the morning. Disassembly was really straight-forward, so I'm not worried about having to do it twice. I'm interested in getting this thing clean by Memorial day now.

Here are a couple pics so far, and if anyone has serious objectives to my current plan, please voice them now as I don't have time to tarry. Thanks again, everybody!




Oh, and I'll probably have several more photos. Does anyone know if I can up my photo quota space, so I don't have to keep deleting old photos?

 

[funandsun]

Oh, and I'll probably have several more photos. Does anyone know if I can up my photo quota space, so I don't have to keep deleting old photos?

Bronze Supporter got me more storage, all the pics I post and I am hardly at 1/3.

 

[splashpad]

That is definitely not doing it's job!

Is it hard to pull that sand out to make sure the laterals are sound? Can you swirl the sand around with something (even garden hose) to see if it's compacted?

You could carefully add sand to bring it up to the right level, BUT then you'd have more to handle with your "deep" clean.

- - - Updated - - -

Bronze Supporter got me more storage, all the pics I post and I am hardly at 1/3.

+1! Yes =)

 

[funandsun]

madyogi, only way to check for broken laterals is to remove the straight pipe assembly. They are attached to the straight pipe but obviously at the bottom. Not sure you can do that without removing majority if not ALL of the sand.

I DO NOT Recommend pulling up through the sand, sand is heavy and that straight pipe and lateral assembly is plastic.

Once you got a lot of sand out, yes you could put the hose and water gently fishing for the bottom and loosen up the sand and slowly twist the straight pipe around but dang it man, BE CAREFUL!

That unit will not take a lot to break. If you have to use a lot of muscle, stop.

When I did mine, I got about 1/2 of the sand out and THEN I was able to get the hose deep and was able to GENTLY wiggle and it came right up I was also only working with 150lbs of sand.


IF you have a tarp that you could dump what sand is there on to it, you could inspect the laterals, then put that sand back in (not sure how easy that would be) and then top off the sand according to the manufacturers guidelines for the unit you have.

Working with 1 arm behind your back in Filtration will slow things down. No charges filed yet, just gathering facts.