Help with Stubborn Cloudy Green

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Okay madyogi, I haven't visited your thread for over 2 weeks now because of helping other members, and honestly, it appeared you had lots of help with others jumping in. But after taking a peek at what's been happening, I have to say something's not right. Before I get into the SLAM itself, let me first say to you and everyone else who's been so wonderful in helping madyogi .... we have to be careful about hijacking a thread. This is madyogi's thread, and I can see where it's become derailed and is now a story about 2-3 pools, and that's never good. My gut tells me to split thins off to your own threads, but you all seem to be having a good time and getting long which is what we always want to see. So I'll leave things for now because honestly, it would be a lot of work for me to split posts, but if any of you want me to do that, just let me know and I will.

Now for madyogi's water ...... I don't like it for two reasons: The color (hue) of that green and the cloudiness. I never saw the initial green until today, and it seems borderline iron and algae. Very close. So I would like to ask the following
1. Have you ever been told there is iron in your water? I wouldn't think in LR you would. My daughters live in Cabot and I would expect they might, but in LR you never know.
2. Are you filling from a well? If not, you might also consider checking with the water district. Their annual report should disclose any metals.
3. At some point when you get a chance, I'd like you to take a water sample, not from the pool but from your fill hose, and get a free pool store test. Yes, I said it. :rant: Just ignore all the chatter and advice, say thank you, and go about your way. Let us know what your iron content is (if any). I'd feel better to know for sure.

Filtration - There is a LOT of talk about additional filtration in this thread. I understand why it is so attractive and how it may have its benefits, but I'm here to tell you ..... when you have algae it has to be chemically destroyed first. No additional filtration will cure a green pool. Nether will DE for that matter which is another item that has popped its ugly head early on. DE is fine once the pool is almost clear and blue and passing he OCLT, but not at this stage. Focus on the chemicals (FC & CYA) first. I couldn't tell earlier though when you discussed the deep clean ... did you ever do it? If not, I do believe that's something you should ensure gets done to dislodge any old junk trapped in the sand. The sand may also be compacted from years of use and become "channeled" in ways the inhibits good sand filtration throughout.

Chemicals - I think I asked this earlier in May when I first chimed in, but to make sure .... other than regular bleach, muriatic acid, and stabilizer, have you added ANYTHING else to that water you can think of? Any pool store products of any type? If the answer is no, and if you learn there is no significant amount of iron in the water, you still have an FC/CYA imbalance - no question. Even if you have iron, the water should be clear by now with a tint to it. But honestly I'm not seeing any improvements, and this has been way too long. I would recommend another CYA test using the following to assist:
CYA Testing:
Proper lighting is critical for the CYA test, so you want to test for CYA outside on a bright sunny day. Use the mixing bottle to gently mix the required amounts of pool water and R-0013 reagent, let sit for 30 seconds, then gently mix again. Recommend standing outside with your back to the sun and the view tube in the shade of your body at waist level. Then, begin squirting the mixed solution into the skinny tube. Watch the black dot until it completely disappears. Once it disappears, record the CYA reading. To help the eyes and prevent staring at the dot, some people find it better to pour & view in stages. Pour some solution into the viewing tube, look away, then look back again for the dot. Repeat as necessary until you feel the dot is gone. After the first CYA test, you can pour the mixed solution from the skinny view tube back to the mixing bottle, gently shake, and do the same test a second, third, or fourth time to instill consistency in your technique, become more comfortable with the testing, and validate your own CYA reading.
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Madyogi, it's also important for you to understand you are not the only one who struggles with testing accuracy. We all do. Just last night I was upset at myself for not reading my CH properly, even with a speedstir. Sometimes the color changes or appearance of the dot (in the case of your CYA) is frustrating, but you can do it. Like I note above, use that same sample and go back & forth 2 times or 20 times, it doesn't matter. Just keep pouring and viewing until you are 100% confident you have a good/consistent CYA. The entire concept and success of your SLAM rests on that CYA test. As you know, if the CYA is higher than you thought, the bleach isn't able to work strong enough. If the CYA is lower than you thought, like when it was below 30, the AR sun is impeding your progress. So if the sun is out today, make sure to verify that CYA.

Just remember ... algae cannot survive in a properly sanitized body of water. To see algae means either the FC/CYA ratio is off, or you still have an undiscovered body of algae in your pool you haven't brushed or found yet. By now I would think you had brushed every inch of the pool 40+ times, but if algae is tucked away in some hollow steps, ladder, or behind a light, it will get you. If there is any chance there is still some bulk material laying at the bottom, it must be removed.

I'll try to pop back in and monitor your progress as times permits, so please reply back with some answers to those questions above and let me/us know if you have any questions. To everyone who has chimed in to help madyogi, thank you. It's nice to see everyone helping. At the same time, be mindful of madyogi's thread and lets try to keep the focus on their pool. If you want my help to clean things up on this thread, just let me know. Thanks everyone, and have a great Friday/weekend. :swim:
 
Anybody who wants to put in time splitting the thread, that's fine with me. It's definitely all over the place, but it's been great to have some company during my struggle here, and I feel I have learned a lot about my system in the process, regardless of the clarity of my water at this point. So thanks everybody!

And thanks for checking back in, Texas Splash! To answer your questions:

I don't fill from a well, it's city water. I am not aware of any iron in the water. I did have my pool water tested, not straight out of the fill hose but out of the pool, at a pool store two days ago, just to eyeball my FC while out of reagent, and they didn't show any iron.

I can't imagine there's anything stuck somewhere. I have brushed at least three times daily over the past week, probably more. No ladder in the pool yet, no lights to be concerned with. I have run the polaris a bunch, and every time it came back with less debris, until all it was picking up the most recent toy my son tossed in.

I'll retest the CYA this afternoon at lunch, but it is just beyond me how it could legitimately be higher 50, and that's even with me being generous and saying the dot is gone as soon as the water in the tube gets cloudy. I'll report back about the CYA after lunch.

In the meantime, what is the drawback of just jacking your FC up to 25 or so, even if you suspect your CYA is only 30 or 40? If you're doing it just to eliminate the possibility of underestimating your CYA, is there any potential problem there, besides just unnecessarily losing FC to the sun?

Thanks again for reeling us back in, Texas Splash. Still got 48+ hours to make some progress!
 
madyogi said:
I'll retest the CYA this afternoon at lunch, but it is just beyond me how it could legitimately be higher 50, and that's even with me being generous and saying the dot is gone as soon as the water in the tube gets cloudy. I'll report back about the CYA after lunch.
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Back to the bright sun =)

madyogi said:
In the meantime, what is the drawback of just jacking your FC up to 25 or so, even if you suspect your CYA is only 30 or 40? If you're doing it just to eliminate the possibility of underestimating your CYA, is there any potential problem there, besides just unnecessarily losing FC to the sun?
Thanks again for reeling us back in, Texas Splash. Still got 48+ hours to make some progress!
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The potential to damage pump equipment and mostly wasted $$
 
I agree 100% with everything Texas Splash posted.

Rule #1 SLAM Process Kills Algae and your Filter Cleans the Water.

This delay is simply 1 of 2 or a combo of both but still only a 2 part equation. CYA/FC + Filtration.

Looking back, even with his CYA questionable, he has been keeping FC high and maybe even Higher than FC/CYA guidelines, I don't see where at any point for enough time he would have been under powered on FC to CYA that would still afford for the lack of clarity.

I think he needs to either Deep Clean his sand or consider a full replacement of it and know that from here he has sand to work with for years to come that has only known TFP methods (no floc, clarifier et all, in the sands history).

I did ponder the iron because I suffered that as well (which was why I asked about liner=green) and like Texas Splash said, I too would expect cleaner water if even with a green tint, the clarity should be better, and the Clarity or cleaning of the water is what seems to be behind the curve. Your filter doesn't know if the algae is dead or alive, nor does it care.

Looking back at my 2017 SLAM pics, my Green tint stayed until the very end and once clarity improved and the dead algae was filtered, then the blue from my liner offered that satisfying view. (I still had a iron issue but that was addressed after clear water not before or during)

All of that said, the thread is madyogi's, I think he should determine what is done with it, it's been his journey.
 
I figured it was mostly wasted $$, but given the potential for damage I can see why it should be avoided. I just can't imagine I'm grossly underestimating my CYA, but like I said, maybe it is 50.

Another question, all anti-pool store bias aside, is it possible I could get a leg up using flocculant today to try and clear some of this out? I have been diligent in not putting anything in the pool thus far but bleach, acid, baking soda, and borax/washing soda, but if there's something off script that could help me clear out what remains in a hurry, I'm willing to try.
 
I definitely understand the reasons for suggesting a deep clean and/or replacing the sand entirely, but my goal here was to clear the pool by this weekend, and I feared cutting pipes and adding unions with no prior experience might put me further behind, so I avoided that, opting for FC and Filtering, so that's where I'm at.

Once this deadline passes, swimmers or not, and once all our end of school rush is over, I plan to give the deep clean a shot, for sure.

It's interesting to me what you said, funandsun, regarding the green tint all the way through your process a couple years ago. Judging by how my shallow end looks this year, which is mostly just clear and cloudy to the naked eye right now, it feels like the whole pool might skip that cloudy blue stage...
 
madyogi said:
I figured it was mostly wasted $$, but given the potential for damage I can see why it should be avoided. I just can't imagine I'm grossly underestimating my CYA, but like I said, maybe it is 50.
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It won't be terrible if it is 50, especially being in the south :) just means a little more aggressive with the FC addition during SLAM Process

madyogi said:
Another question, all anti-pool store bias aside, is it possible I could get a leg up using flocculant today to try and clear some of this out? I have been diligent in not putting anything in the pool thus far but bleach, acid, baking soda, and borax/washing soda, but if there's something off script that could help me clear out what remains in a hurry, I'm willing to try.
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It honestly depends on WHAT the cloudiness is. (side point: last year with our tiny pool we had a cloudy issue because it was vinyl and DID use half dose of Clorox Water Clarifier, it turns out it was excess calcium knocked out of solution (the vinyl pool doesn't need it), but that is an extreme example)
 
For what it's worth, I'm seriously considering the deep clean if I can get a decent plan together by this evening so I can go to Home Depot or Lowes and get everything I need to get it done first thing tomorrow. I started a thread here to discuss those options if anyone is interested in helping/following along.
 
I'll take a few minutes to try and separate a few discussions in the thread so we can keep this thread focued on madyogi's SLAM. Bear with me as I do some major behind the scenes work. :hammer:

As for the SLAM itself, if you have plans this weekend that will have you away from the pool, or at least the SLAM, it's okay. While we emphasize consistency and details :blah: :blah: :blah:, everyone has as limit and life dictates what we do. Just do your best with the FC, and yes please, double-check that CYA with the notes I gave your earlier. As for the iron test, a pool water sample generally isn't as good because if there is iron in the pool, your chlorine has already interacted with it and will skew the iron reading. That's why we recommend getting the sample from the source. Hopefully you have no iron. If you did, with the elevated FC level you might see staining around the pool, and if you held a white t-shirt or sock over a return or placed it in the skimmer it might show a tea color over time. But that first image you posted just had an odd color - almost an emerald look related to metals. That's why I asked.

Okay, so let me get to work.

Okay - We're down from 12 pages to 6. Two other threads created for:
Mendy48: My SLAM and Filtration Issues
Funandsun: My SLAM w/ Duda Bags Fiber Clear
 

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About to head home for lunch, so I'll snap a photo in the sun to see where things stand, check FC and CYA and adjust as necessary. Also going to take a sample of water from the hose to the pool store to rule out anything strange coming from the city water.

If time allows, I might also run to Home Depot and get a few items for a potential deep clean of the filter tomorrow am.

Thanks for sticking with me, everybody!
 
madyogi said:
About to head home for lunch, so I'll snap a photo in the sun to see where things stand, check FC and CYA and adjust as necessary. Also going to take a sample of water from the hose to the pool store to rule out anything strange coming from the city water.

If time allows, I might also run to Home Depot and get a few items for a potential deep clean of the filter tomorrow am.

Thanks for sticking with me, everybody!
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Sounds great! Looking forward to update!

Any chance you'd want to take a picture of the CYA test with the test "out of focus"? Just so we could all play the CYA guessing game =)
 
I hate to disappoint, but I didn't snap a photo of the CYA test. That said, I promise you guys it can't be higher than 50. I had full sun today, back to the sun, tube at waist level, all the things I normally do. At 60 it's a little cloudy. At 50 it's definitely cloudy, but the dot is still immediately visible. At the 40 line, glancing down without trying too hard, I can see how one could say it "disappears," so I'm saying the level is most likely 40, possibly 50.

Lost 2ppm FC from this morning at 20, so I adjusted that back up to 22, just for good measure. Also went to the pool store with a sample straight from the hose, and they found no detectable iron. I even threw them about $5-6 for their trouble by purchasing a 2" PVC union there for $15.

Here's a photo from our upstairs bathroom:

20180518_131852.jpg

I can totally make out the brush at the bottom of the deep end while brushing, but there's still clearly a lot more work to do. Is it still the consensus that my next step should be to do a deep clean of my filter sand? I really wanted to have kids swimming this weekend, but I am resigned to the fact that is not likely. Even so, if there's anything else you think I can do, please let me know.

Thanks again!
 
madyogi said:
I hate to disappoint, but I didn't snap a photo of the CYA test. That said, I promise you guys it can't be higher than 50. I had full sun today, back to the sun, tube at waist level, all the things I normally do. At 60 it's a little cloudy. At 50 it's definitely cloudy, but the dot is still immediately visible. At the 40 line, glancing down without trying too hard, I can see how one could say it "disappears," so I'm saying the level is most likely 40, possibly 50.
- Lost 2ppm FC from this morning at 20, so I adjusted that back up to 22, just for good measure. Also went to the pool store with a sample straight from the hose, and they found no detectable iron. I even threw them about $5-6 for their trouble by purchasing a 2" PVC union there for $15.
- Here's a photo from our upstairs bathroom:
{pic}
- I can totally make out the brush at the bottom of the deep end while brushing, but there's still clearly a lot more work to do. Is it still the consensus that my next step should be to do a deep clean of my filter sand? I really wanted to have kids swimming this weekend, but I am resigned to the fact that is not likely. Even so, if there's anything else you think I can do, please let me know.
Thanks again!
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Unless you get a miracle clearing, it isn't safe (for visibility) to allow swimming in anything but clear water.

I still think CYA is under estimated ;), NOT that you are doing wrong at all. It's just some seriously stubborn stuff going on there!

You are doing great sticking through it!
 
madyogi, 2017, my clearing stopped, I went to deep clean took everything apart started getting my hand in there working around it.

Keep in mind We (got my wife in here on this with me) WE were not kind to our sand, I didn't know or read to vac to waste, so floc and clarifier for 2-3 seasons all ended up in my sand and that was apparent when I went to deep clean it.

Now money is tight for everyone so they say, but for me, I needed 150lbs of sand, the $45.00 was worth it to start over with a Promise that I will try to make my sand last forever "next" time.

Some folks have reported good results with deep cleaning, however, if you have a history of abusing the sand and you can swing however many lbs you would need. I vote you replace all that sand, start over with new. You will then 100% remove that from this equation.

Now, that said.. it is Friday, I replaced my sand on May 13th and I did not go Clear and blue until I assume as early as the 19th because my next picture is the 19th and I am clearly taking lots of pictures and camera happy it would appear.

I will post up pics on my new thread (Thank you Texas Splash) from 2017. If you want to view them.
 
Okay, at this point I'm fine with the fact that nobody's really swimming this weekend, and I'm fine with assuming I have no clue how to execute the CYA test properly. The question becomes, how should I proceed? Let's say the CYA is 60, because the tube kind of gets cloudy there. There is just no way it could be 70 unless my tube I bought last year is somehow defective or contaminated (the reagent is new this year). Should I spike my SLAM up to 24+ even though every test I've done tells my eyes it can't be over 50, or should I trust my gut and stay with SLAM levels for CYA of 50 and just resign myself to the fact that this year is a doosey?
 
madyogi said:
Okay, at this point I'm fine with the fact that nobody's really swimming this weekend, and I'm fine with assuming I have no clue how to execute the CYA test properly. The question becomes, how should I proceed? Let's say the CYA is 60, because the tube kind of gets cloudy there. There is just no way it could be 70 unless my tube I bought last year is somehow defective or contaminated (the reagent is new this year). Should I spike my SLAM up to 24+ even though every test I've done tells my eyes it can't be over 50, or should I trust my gut and stay with SLAM levels for CYA of 50 and just resign myself to the fact that this year is a doosey?
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Trust your Gut.
 

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