Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

[CJadamec]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

I don't see it as greed or fraud. I do see it as people behind the counter with a genuine lack of understanding of the problems they are charged with solving. There is no way for the person behind the counter to know each individual pool they test nor the conditions that the pool or equipment is in. The person bringing in the water is for the most part just as at fault for perpetuating the cycle of the "pool $tore" experience.

The general public wants nothing to do with FC CYA pH TA or CH let alone a csi number. They want the thing they can throw in the pool and have instant gratification. The guy at the pool store is faced with making these uninformed masses happy day in and day out with countess people. So out they churn their mediocre test results and give people the printout and a generic recommendation to move on to the next person.

This cycle repeats over and over most of the time resulting in mostly clear to clear water for a season with one or two algae problems but hey that's just part of owning a pool right and there is a magic pill at the pool store that makes that better.

Then there's the type of people who find their way here. Regardless of the history that brought them here they have come here for knowledge and what they are hoping will be a better way to manage their pool. For those who have woken up from the lemming like cycle of the "pool $tore" they can't believe how easy it can be and suddenly they realize just how poor the recommendations and advise from the guy behind the counter really was. That kind of sudden wool being pulled from your eyes experience will breed the kind of discontent you see here towards the poor college kid behind that test counter.

I ask people I know with pools how they are doing and listen to them go on about nightmare openings and wonderful pool store potions. They say how easy it is to feed the pool pucks all summer and bring a sample in for testing once or twice a month. I then mention how I just use liquid chlorine and never have anything but crystal clear water and just see their eyes glaze over. The people here are the vast minority of pool users and when the majority pool user is faced with information that isnt what the pool store "experts" tell them they just look at you like you are nuts.

So this nut job is going to step off my soap box and take a dip in my crystal clear, silky soft, sparkly, warm, lack of any bad chlorine smell Trouble Free Pool.

 

[Jaimslaw]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

First off, I don't understand why you feel that Leslie's is being singled out.

Please refer to title of this thread as to your query. BTW, I did make an attemot to pepper my post with references to both Leslies and non Leslie pool stores - just didn't do it on every occasion.

We recommend that pool owners steer clear of Pool $tores, it just happens that Leslie's is a large chain, and most of the time that is the store being discussed.

A recommendation often based upon spurious reasoning, IMO. I think you don't give members here near enough credit to be able to make intelligent decisions about visiting a pool store and what to do once i. the pool store.

While I understand your point that some Pool $tore employees are quite accurate in their work and advice, a store is in business to make money, period, regardless the business. Seeing that most big-chain Pool $tores make most of that money on selling chemicals, I'm sure most tend to push miracle potions before they stress the importance of your FC to CYA ratio.

I find this to be a bit on the myopic side if your comment is that pool stores should be in business only to promote the FC to CYA ratio, and that failing this, ppl need to avoid pool stores or suffer great peril. In any event, the OP query was in regard to water testing reliability of pool stores. So I assume the inference you want the reader to draw is that because they sell chemicals, there tests are going to be purposely skewed...something I still believe to be unreasonably promoted on this site. BTW, my 14 years experience....no pool store manager/employee has ever "pushed" products on me or to the customers in the store who are there when I am. Parenthetically speaking, the occasional sale of products of admittedly dubious efficacy does not send me into a tailspin or cause me to characterize pool stores owners as snake oil huskers who need to be put out of business for the sake of pool owners.

...my personal experience is that most big chain Pool $tores hire young kids on vacation from school as seasonal help. These kids have no interest in pool chemistry, just that weekly pay check.

You completely lost me here. Pimpled faced teenagers running most pool stores? For reasons already expressed by me and others, this contention places considerable strain on the logical processes, and deserves to be placed in the realm of an urban myth.

If you went to your doctor with the flu, and he said that you needed a flu shot to clear up your symptoms, would you go back to that doctor?

No I wouldn't. But by the same token, I would not use that experience to induce ppl to run away from all doctors. The central point of my post is that some are painting the pool industry with an unreasonably broad brush, by virtue of some flawed reasoning (ref. the two variable/factors rasied in my original post).

Yes, the important thing from all this is the fact that nobody will care to get your pool care right better than you. It's your pool, and it's your own family's enjoyment and well-being, so of course the pool owner has a vested interest to get it right.

If I didn't make it clear enough in my post, I fully embrace this.

Look, I am not here to change anyone's opinions or beliefs about pool stores. I just believe, and have so expressed, that some ppls beliefs about pool stores that repeatedly get expressed here are frequently made from less than firm ground - and in some cases, way way out there (pointing to no one member or post in particular). I guess a latent concern of mine, whether reasonable or not, is that this pool store = evil empire will become dogma on this site, much to my regret on behalf of the hundreds or even thousands of honest and well intentioned pool store owners.

Cheers.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

Interesting discussion here.

I tend to agree that pool store = evil empire should not be dogma here, or ever really stated. I also think it is typically newer members excited about what they have learned here that are often those that end up posting more extreme views like that. And I would hope that veteran members would temper some of those posts.

Pool stores have a purpose and can be helpful, but personally I would not rely on them for testing. I too get my chlorine and acid from the pool stores, although have switched from Leslie's to a local store that has better prices.

Ignoring their ability to accurately test, it is the advice that they offer that is a bigger concern to me. The FC/CYA relationship was documented over 40 years ago. Why is this not known by the pool store employees? Why do the pool stores still push unrealistic recommendations that will not fix the underlying problem? I can only think of 2 reasons. 1. They have not been trained properly and are ignorant of the chemistry. Or 2. They ignore it for profitable reasons.
Either of these make me wonder why they should be trusted.
I welcome additional explanations as to why the 40 year old science is still ignored in the pool industry.

 

[BattleOfYakima]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

I'm in central Florida so I have 2 Leslie's and 2 Pinch-A-Penny's in my town, with several more (and mom-and-pop stores too) in neighboring cities. I get trade bleach for under $1.50 a gallon from them using the 2.5 gallon refills. During the 4 month 'summer', depending on how much my pool overflows in a given week and how much swimming, I go through 2-4 jugs a week, spending $7.5-$15 a week, or $120-$240 over our 4 months of brutal sun and torrential rain. I'd be spending far more on cal-hypo or store bleach, so just to be clear, I LOVE POOL STORES! That being said, I only use their testing when I'm in a really bad place and out of reagent or something, and only if i have to for some reason. I was pool-stored for years. You ever see the pool store wheel - that was me except for the TDS/phosphates because I don't want algae, so I don't care about algae food. Never heard of black algae until I got it, despite being a loyal pool store follower. Why did I get it - they had built my CYA up way over 200, not that I knew what cya was, only what stabilizer was and that mine was always "good" on the test. Anyways, long story short, pool stores are neither good nor evil, but a tool you can either use right or use wrong. It is not, and will never be, their pool, it is your pool. Let them make the decisions and they will make decisions using their logic, not yours. Why use the tool that way when you've already found TFP? Use it to save money or time if you can/want to. Use it to make money if you feel like franchising one. Certainly there is nothing wrong with anyone who wishes to do business selling quality, fresh chemicals, doing quality repairs, and carrying things you'd otherwise have to have shipped. So rejoice that the pool store is a tool in your bag, there if you wish to use it. Just know, the water testing part of that tool is, unquestionably, inferior in scientific value compared to doing the testing yourself with care and determination.

- - - Updated - - -

IThe FC/CYA relationship was documented over 40 years ago. Why is this not known by the pool store employees? Why do the pool stores still push unrealistic recommendations that will not fix the underlying problem?

if they had just kept my cya under 100 they could have had me forever...but no...they didn't, so they became relegated to my cheap bleach and local parts place

 

[BattleOfYakima]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

" Just curious, when they do the cya test do they go outside with their back to the Sun? What do they do on cloudy days? Do they have their own sun?

my pinch-a-penny and leslie's stores have different water testing stations. each has their own white backlight block for the ph block. one uses cya test tabs, the other liquid. both use black dot testing. neither goes outside. one has under-lit tube, one just uses store lighting from above. Neither place waits 30 seconds and reshakes on any of the visits i remember.

other note - one of the two stores is setup to do almost all the tests at once (using some electronic testing and auto droppers) - while the other is one at a time all manual except one test. Nonetheless, water testing is treated like a race to the death. I don't know about you all, but since chemical additions are based on testing, rushing the testing is the last thing i want. do it right. move with a purpose but don't hurry. they all hurry.

 

[Ecoke]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

The reason I am here on TFP is frustration with all pool stores over the years that had me forever fixing and less enjoying my pool. Fixes usually would last at best 10 days...but usually less..then back for more..expensive fixes. No mention of the Trichlor Koolaid they had me drinking with no mention of high CYA level being a problem. It all came to a header a few weeks ago ...I was fighting a green pool and Pinch a Penny offered me several fixes 3 straight days. Seeing no progress...I took 2 samples..same spot..same time..within 10 minutes I was off for testing...Had Pinch a Penny test..left there and headed to Leslie's...was there in less then 10 minutes..

Results you say???

Test PAP Leslies

FC 5.0 10.0
TC 5.0 10.0
PH 7.6 7.6
TA 125 80
CH 425 280
CYA 100 140 (PAP said my CYA of 100 was ok)

Not knowing who to believe and what to do to fix...I Googled...found TFP...ordered a Taylor 2006...pool was crystal clear in less then a week...and not a pool store within driving distance can knock the smile off my face. But like Yakima said..they sometimes have great chlorine sales!

 

[kimkats]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

Not knowing who to believe and what to do to fix...I Googled...found TFP...ordered a Taylor 2006...pool was crystal clear in less then a week...and not a pool store within driving distance can knock the smile off my face. But like Yakima said..they sometimes have great chlorine sales!

This makes my heart smile THANKS!

Kim

 

[jagger2005]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

Been to the pool store one time in my life, a week after my pool was opened - started with TFP day one. My FC of 5 was too high and my phosphates were really high. Said I needed some Phosfree for salt water pools. I would need to add some every 2 weeks to keep it under control, so this even bigger bottle is a better value...

 

[tim5055]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

Pimpled faced teenagers running most pool stores? For reasons already expressed by me and others, this contention places considerable strain on the logical processes, and deserves to be placed in the realm of an urban myth.

While you may feel it's a myth, I witness it each year. At one store (Taylor testing) the kid had to stop multiple times during testing to go ask the boss how something was done. The boss finally came over and apologized saying (name forgotten) is here for the summer and being trained. These numbers were way off, by the way....

When I purchased my house with a pool I had zero pool knowledge and figured I would need expert help. I went to three pool stores with water samples for testing and received three different sets of results. My main reason for three stores was the fact that I was also,looking to purchase a spa, so I thought the water test would give me time to talk to them and get a feel for them.

Each year I see "kids" being hired for the summer and being trained on the testing that particular store uses. On uses a Lamotte Spin Lab and I have watched one of these kids test a guys water and then highlight the products the computer recommended. He was then led around the store and a shopping cart was filled with the recommended products.

Now, not restricted to the "kids", "professional" advice I have received includes:

- My pool finish will be destroyed if I don't immediately bring my TA up from 60 to at least 120

- Using baking soda to increase TA is unhealthy because of the impurities in baking soda

- There is no connection between CYA and FC, that CYA was good because it protects the chlorine. It's OK up to 200ppm

- It is illegal in SC to sell liquid chlorine, that is why I have to buy pucks

- Bleach can't be used in a pool because of the impurities. (This store like the threat of impurities)

- Their liquid chlorine has stabilizer in it

-Bleach has stabilizer in it

I admit, when I have a day with nothing to do now I make the rounds of the stores just to see how their testing compares. All three fail every time.

 

[BattleOfYakima]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

CYA was good because it protects the chlorine. It's OK up to 200ppm

heard this at several stores except they said "great" or "needed in Florida"

- It is illegal in SC to sell liquid chlorine, that is why I have to buy pucks

heard this in washington state, lies obviously

- Bleach can't be used in a pool because of the impurities. (This store like the threat of impurities)

heard bleach wasn't safe at a mom and pop pool store.....yeah...idk, but hey their "liquid chlorine" they said was safe was the right price and in a great location for my friend that i was helping fix his pool after using yellow out and clarifier from the chain pool store with dichlor shock packets on top

 

[cfherrman]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

My local pool store doesn't sell liquid clorine......

 

[BattleOfYakima]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

Then I'm impressed Amazon, Walmart, and TFP haven't put them out of business.... yet

 

[tim5055]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

My local pool store doesn't sell liquid clorine......

Most pool stores call it "Shock", not liquid chlorine. Ask them if the have liquid shock. They like to make you think it's not the same stuff, but it is.

 

[PAGirl]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

My only recent trip to the pool store was for pool sand, as no where else had it when I needed it. My SIL, on the other hand, is continually "pool stored". Case in point: upon every opening, she heads in to get her water tested. They always send her home with the alkalinity up, AND Ph down. I have tried to tell her, politely, that if she leaves Her alkalinity alone, (it's around 80) she won't need the Ph down. (No features on the pool that raise Ph, and she uses pucks) i have tried more than once to get her to visit this site, to no avail.

 

[domct203]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

.........They always send her home with the alkalinity up, AND Ph down........

Makes you wonder, are they really that ignorant????

 

[JoeSelf]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

I found this site after being told CYA to high have to drain half of pool. They have recently changed their testing equipment, but usually they have long time employees doing the testing. Over the last two years I have asked all of them what they do in their pool while wait for test. (Just cause its fun to see whats off.) Last time my CYA was 4 on the test. NOT ONE of them has a pool. Every time with a test the wanted me to dump something in. And always said chlorine to high.

My friend down the street swears by them and guess strips. But uses colored lights to hide the snow storm at night. He has a SWG and it looks ok in the day, but at night you can see the difference. His DE filter cracked (3rd time) his PB switched him out to glass. Said it made his pool clearer.

I have a Graduation party next year and he'll be there after dark. I'll turn on my light (this one, didn't last time) to show him how clear a pool should be. He has not been in my pool, I guess cause its not salt nor heated.

 

[cfherrman]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

Last year I was there to get clarifier since my pool wouldn't clear and bought liquid clorine then. My pool sand came from there and I cleaned my sand at the start this year and sand seemed to be large. I think it's 1/2 pool sand and is not filtering like a tfp pool.

 

[richie0701]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

I still have a problem believing as some do that what is at play here is greedy capitalism at its very worst...tantamount to fraud).

I think at the corporate level they must have a set of policies and training procedures that promote upselling wherever possible. They must, surely, otherwise they'd be the worst business on the face of the planet and completely irresponsible to their shareholders.

Even if they did have high accuracy on their testing, what sort of business would it be if it simply sent every customer away with $6 worth of bleach and a pat on the head?

Leslies do hire high school kids in the summer in my neighborhood FWIW. The guy that runs the closest store is always pretty honest with me on most things (be careful with pucks, don't bother with the CH because you're on vinyl). However, last time I was in (3 weeks ago) the very young (high school) girl insisted that even with a vinyl pool I needed to bring my CH up otherwise I'll likely end up replacing all my equipment. Clearly that was straight out of the training manual. In the same store for 4 years, the guy that runs it has been saying the opposite to the training manual.

I'm delighted to be testing my own water but understand why the average pool owner doesn't want to have the hassle. Loading up with pucks, shocking and constantly using phosfree+ultra brite seems like a lot less hassle if you can afford it. To that note, I work with a couple people with pools (there are fewer of us in New England). I was talking about how I was going to maintain mine this year and they think I'm nuts, way too much hassle for them. One already has a full years supply of Phosfree as he got 4 tubs for the price of 3.

 

[pabeader]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

What I don't understand is how it's LESS hassle to go the pool $tore route? You got to get a water sample, go to the $tore, wait for the testing, purchase a bunch of magic potions, go back home, pour all the stuff into your pool and then pray it does some good. Then repeat it all again, when it doesn't help.

With TFP you take a water sample to your table, test, add what you need, (usually only chlorine) and enjoy your clean, clear water.
Am I missing something??

 

[richie0701]

Re: Why so much hate on pool store's water test?

What I don't understand is how it's LESS hassle to go the pool $tore route? You got to get a water sample, go to the $tore, wait for the testing, purchase a bunch of magic potions, go back home, pour all the stuff into your pool and then pray it does some good. Then repeat it all again, when it doesn't help.

With TFP you take a water sample to your table, test, add what you need, (usually only chlorine) and enjoy your clean, clear water.
Am I missing something??

Test with strips, keep floaters loaded with pucks (buy massive buckets to save store trips), throw some shock in every Sunday, add Phosfree when it gets a bit cloudy and/or use the 'clarifier' stuff and go to the pool store when things go bad. That's fairly low hassle if your not suffering with continuous algae blooms. I would imagine with the short seasons here in Boston and lower water temperatures it's generally easier to keep a pool algae free.

I'm not saying that method is good but it works for almost everyone I know with a pool.