New pool build in San Tan, AZ

[DandT40]

Hello everyone, we are just getting started on our new pool build out in San Tan Valley, AZ (Phoenix area). It's a new construction home and this will be our first pool we own so we are new to the game. We started by getting bids from several pool builders and through attrition we are down to 2 (really 1 based on price). We've combined ideas from the he different plans, and scaled back a lot on the additional landscaping with the PB's to keep the initial cost and deposits down.

It is just myself and my wife and 2 dogs. No kids. No swimming laps. We described what we wanted to the builders as more of a "vegas hotel style pool" around socializing and relaxing in the water. We like the large baja shelf and the spa.

Below is the equipment/specs from the builder as well as a couple of designs to show both the finished product and the "stage 1" that we're shooting for. Please any help, C&C's, experiences are welcome. Our open debates and questions are:

How deep should the baja shelf be? This is the only builder that has it on the second step. Are there chairs that accommodate this or is the standard 8" depth make more sense? Obviously with the chairs shown this makes no sense.
Is the equipment sized okay? We need this big of a heater living in AZ? Is an electric heater an option?
We have the in floor cleaning. Reading around on here it doesn't seem like many people are big fans of that. Is it solely because of cost? Do they not work as well as advertised? Along with that is adding a jet in the spa for the in floor cleaning system. Is that a total waste given the water movement in the spa already once it is turned on?
Then of course colors and materials for decking and tile. We're leaning towards travertine around the pool and the patio leading to our house and then using slate for the pergola area.
In the most recent photos (the stage1 attachments) the waterfall design is stepped up but then falls off at the end. We don't like that at all and would rather have it stepped evenly on both sides.

Proposed Equipment:
Surface Upgrade (Surface: Level 1 - Aqua Blue ,Color: PebbleTEC - Pebble Sheen )
BASE Plumbing - INFLOOR (2.5") - 15' run, Paraskim VENTURI, set
Auto Fill Complete - Paramount ParaLEVEL (incl. 40' run & Febco)
1.5" Plumbing Runs
2" Plumbing Runs
2.5" Plumbing Runs
2-way/3-way Jandy Valve
Gas BASE - 1.5" or 2" Run w/ Heater Hookup
Gas - 2" Gasline
Equipment Slab (2x3) 3x
Pentair - Intelliflo3 VSF (Variable Speed & Flow Pump) w/ built in controller *3 year warranty
Add 3HP VSF intelliflo Spa Booster Pump (includes install/electrical hookup & set pump) *OPTIMAL SPA THERAPY & SETUP
Pentair - 420s.f. Cartridge Filter
Pentair - 400K BTU Heater
Added SW system (no model # give yet)
1 HP - Silencer Air Blower
PCC2000 - Premium Infloor Cleaning System w/ 10 heads/vector nozzles & 4 downjets (includes heavy debris canister, venturi skimmer, MDX3 main drain) *NO booster pump & limited features from flow capabilities
ADD - Large SPA Cleaning (up to 5 heads)
Additional PCC2000 Cleaning Heads

STEEL BASE - 12" O.C. - #3 bar throughout, 5 Bar Bond Beam
Electrical Base (INCL.) - 50' electric run, 1 LED PAL pool light, 20'PVC Conduit, motor hookup (no timeclock)
Basic SubPanel - required for stand-alone pumps
Add 1/2" Electrical Run over 50' base
Upgrade to Intellibrite COLOR POOL
Upgrade to Intellibrite COLOR SPA
100W Transformer - for Pentair MicroBrite or Paramount Paraglo lights
ADD 120V switch/fixture/light

44 Shotcrete Base - 4000psi shotcrete w/ fibermesh, 6" thick floors/walls,
12" BB, reinforced transitions (steps, walls/floor, deep end, etc)
Baja Step (flat fee)
Add underwater umbrella sleeve (Baja step)
Steps & Benches (over 30')
Strip & Finish - SPA - up to 24" (w/ stucco - no paint)
6" Raised Bond Beam w/ Natural LedgeStone
18" Raised Bond Beam w/ Stone
HIDDEN DRAINAGE SYSTEM - custom 1/2" slot drain system that eliminates plastic drains *for all paver/travertine patios
ROCK FILTER (Recommended on EACH set of sheer installed) - located behind waterfall or at equipment
Sheer Descent - 4' (*includes flow control valve - no plumbing runs)
BASE - Interior Finish (up to 720 IA pool - plaster - slurry removal/misc/drain covers/etc)
Therapy Jets - Premium Pressure Jets or equiv. (up to 5 included w/ spa)

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

You have good Pentair equipment listed except I don't see a Pentair IntelliCenter automation panel.

Your builder should get you the IntelliCenter bundle that includes the panel with integrated SWG Power Center, IC40 cell, and two IntelliValve actuators.

Pentair Automation Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I would get Microbrite lights instead of Intellibrite lights...

Pentair LED Pool Lights - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Gunite Spas - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

How to select pool equipment - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Water Features - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[DandT40]

Thanks, they all did have the automation in there (and it's still an option). They said that it is something that can be added down the road and isn't required right off they bat. We thought it was an easy place to save a few bucks, but should we prioritize that? They had the Pentair - Intellicenter i5PS w/ 100A Load Center, Digital Panel w/ 5 relays (POOL & SPA)

 

[ajw22]

They said that it is something that can be added down the road and isn't required right off they bat. We thought it was an easy place to save a few bucks, but should we prioritize that?

Sure you can defer the automation thinking you will save a few bucks. And then by the time you are done you will have spent more then if you put it in upfront. Why?

The Pentair 521906 IntelliCenter bundle - IntelliCenter System Load Center i5PS, IC40, Common Load Center (w/ Salt) -- Model Code: 5PSIC40 includes 2 IntelliValves and Wireless Antenna - is a significant discount over the individual products bought separately. Your builder is not getting you the better priced package deal.

Electrical Base (INCL.) - 50' electric run, 1 LED PAL pool light, 20'PVC Conduit, motor hookup (no timeclock)
Basic SubPanel - required for stand-alone pumps

With the IntelliCenter Load Center you do not need an electrical subpanel. And you will end up paying for duplicate electrical work. First wiring the electrical without the IntelliCenter and then needing to reroute wiring and controls to the IntelliCenter.

How are your color changing lights going to be controlled without the IntelliCenter? And then the light controls rewired and replaced by the IntelliCenter?

And I think it will get old quickly with your new pool and spa going to the equipment pad to turn valves and turn the heater on when you want to use your spa and then after using your spa back to the equipment pad to turn everything off. And who is going to get out of the spa and go to the heater when you want it colder or warmer? Every time you do that you will remember this post and mutter to your self that you should have got the IntelliCenter.

They had the Pentair - Intellicenter i5PS w/ 100A Load Center, Digital Panel w/ 5 relays (POOL & SPA)

Get the bundle installed when the pool is built.

See that your builder passes along the bundle pricing.

See that your builder nets out the electrical work not required because of the IntelliCenter installation.

It will be false economy to defer the automation for a later time.

 

[ajw22]

What is the depth profile of your pool?

 

[DandT40]

Sure you can defer the automation thinking you will save a few bucks. And then by the time you are done you will have spent more then if you put it in upfront. Why?

The Pentair 521906 IntelliCenter bundle - IntelliCenter System Load Center i5PS, IC40, Common Load Center (w/ Salt) -- Model Code: 5PSIC40 includes 2 IntelliValves and Wireless Antenna - is a significant discount over the individual products bought separately. Your builder is not getting you the better priced package deal.



With the IntelliCenter Load Center you do not need an electrical subpanel. And you will end up paying for duplicate electrical work. First wiring the electrical without the IntelliCenter and then needing to reroute wiring and controls to the IntelliCenter.

How are your color changing lights going to be controlled without the IntelliCenter? And then the light controls rewired and replaced by the IntelliCenter?

And I think it will get old quickly with your new pool and spa going to the equipment pad to turn valves and turn the heater on when you want to use your spa and then after using your spa back to the equipment pad to turn everything off. And who is going to get out of the spa and go to the heater when you want it colder or warmer? Every time you do that you will remember this post and mutter to your self that you should have got the IntelliCenter.


Get the bundle installed when the pool is built.

See that your builder passes along the bundle pricing.

See that your builder nets out the electrical work not required because of the IntelliCenter installation.

It will be false economy to defer the automation for a later time.

Got it! Thank you very much! These builders will tell you whatever you want to hear I am convinced. We will add it and I'm going to press on the pricing as well.

 

[proavia]

Not doing automation during the new build will cost you more down the road.
If you need to cut the overall budget for the entire backyard, don't cut anything from the pool and pool equipment budget. Look elsewhere - landscaping, patio furniture, outdoor kitchen, etc.

As for depth of the baja shelf - ask yourself how much water you'd want to sit in when sitting on the shelf.
If the baja shelf is the depth of the first step, you will be sitting in about 6" of water.
If the baja shelf is the depth of the second step, you will be sitting in roughly 16" of water (mid chest depth).
Living in AZ, I prefer the ~16" depth for the baja shelf. The 6" depth is too shallow and way too hot.

 

[DandT40]

What is the depth profile of your pool?

Steps are 8" so the pool itself starts at 32" and goes down to just over 5' at the deepest.

 

[proavia]

Steps are 8" so the pool itself starts at 32" and goes down to just over 5' at the deepest.

Consider a minimum of 3.5 ft (42"). 3' and less is mostly too shallow.
Stand next to a yard stick and see where those depths come on your body.
In the middle of summer, how many people (you included) want water barely to their waist.
Squatting down to lower your upper torso into the water is uncomfortable.
With several people in the pool, you will run out of usable space quickly with only a 32" to 36" shallow end.

 

[DandT40]

Not doing automation during the new build will cost you more down the road.
If you need to cut the overall budget for the entire backyard, don't cut anything from the pool and pool equipment budget. Look elsewhere - landscaping, patio furniture, outdoor kitchen, etc.

As for depth of the baja shelf - ask yourself how much water you'd want to sit in when sitting on the shelf.
If the baja shelf is the depth of the first step, you will be sitting in about 6" of water.
If the baja shelf is the depth of the second step, you will be sitting in roughly 16" of water (mid chest depth).
Living in AZ, I prefer the ~16" depth for the baja shelf. The 6" depth is too shallow and way too hot.

Thanks. That has been our mentality overall - don't skimp on the pool. Push off as much of the landscaping as possible to get the most we can out of the pool. And if we can't get the pool we really want we would wait until we could. We'll get that automation back in there!

That was our original thinking on the shelf, but the more builders we talked to and pools we saw we started to question it. Thanks for the input. I think we'll end up keeping it there.

 

[proavia]

That was our original thinking on the shelf, but the more builders we talked to and pools we saw we started to question it. Thanks for the input. I think we'll end up keeping it there.

Good thinking - you're the one who will have to live with the end result, not your builder.

 

[ajw22]

Steps are 8" so the pool itself starts at 32" and goes down to just over 5' at the deepest.

I think 32" is too shallow for anyone to enjoy.

Consider 3.5' (42") to 5.5' (66").

Confirm in writing with the builder that you are specifying water depth to the middle of the skimmers.

You should get two skimmers in the pool even if you get the IFCS and the plumbing should be valved so you can choose to run the skimmer system or IFCS or both.

My personal opinion is the IFCS adds complexity to the pool system and is more trouble then it is worth. A modern robot cleaner will keep the pool cleaner then a IFCS.

 

[JamesW]

Equipment Slab (2x3) 3x

Seems small for all equipment.

Added SW system (no model # give yet)

Get the IntelliCenter with built in SWG IC40 (SCG Transformer and cell).

PCC2000 - Premium Infloor Cleaning System w/ 10 heads/vector nozzles & 4 downjets (includes heavy debris canister, venturi skimmer, MDX3 main drain) *NO booster pump & limited features from flow capabilities
ADD - Large SPA Cleaning (up to 5 heads)
Additional PCC2000 Cleaning Heads

I would not get in-floor cleaning.

100W Transformer - for Pentair MicroBrite or Paramount Paraglo lights

100 watts seems low.

How many lights and what models.

You probably need at least 300 watts.

Do you want to be able to control different lights individually?

Pentair - Intellicenter i5PS w/ 100A Load Center, Digital Panel w/ 5 relays (POOL & SPA)

Get at least 8 or 10 relays.

 

[DandT40]

Thanks for all the comments about the depth. That is a big factor and I am confirming the profile now.

As far as the IFCS - all the builders so far have included them in our quotes. If I ask for it to be removed, what additional items should I expect to be added in? Just surface skimmers (which we should request anyways)? If we plan to use a robot cleaner are there any problems with the floor drain or anything like that?

 

[JamesW]

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/parts-sheets/automation/intellicenter-control-system-replacement-parts

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/catalogs/2023-pool-product-catalog/2023-product-catalog-by-category-sections/automation/sec03_automation_2023.pdf

 

[ajw22]

As far as the IFCS - all the builders so far have included them in our quotes. If I ask for it to be removed, what additional items should I expect to be added in? Just surface skimmers (which we should request anyways)? If we plan to use a robot cleaner are there any problems with the floor drain or anything like that?

Without the IFCS you want a standard skimmer/return system with 2 skimmers and 3 to 4 returns all home run to the equipment pad. Skimmers should be placed into the prevailing winds as the winds move the surface debris more then the return flow does.

There is a large selection of flat floor drains your builder can use. Discuss it with your builder.

 

[JamesW]

You need a relay for the Filter pump (1) even though it is not going to be used for the pump.

The filter pump relay will power the SWG.

You will probably want to control the pool and spa lights separately, so that is 2 relays (3) and two transformers.

If you have more than 1 pool light, you might want to control them separately.

That is an extra relay (4) and an extra transformer.

You need a relay for the spa blower (5).

You might want to control landscaping lights from a relay (6).

 

[DandT40]

Without the IFCS you want a standard skimmer/return system with 2 skimmers and 3 to 4 returns all home run to the equipment pad. Skimmers should be placed into the prevailing winds as the winds move the surface debris more then the return flow does.

There is a large selection of flat floor drains your builder can use. Discuss it with your builder.

Ok that makes sense. We’ll be sure to mention the drain as well. Thanks!

 

[JamesW]

Pipe Size and Flow Rates.​

You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump.[7]

Pipe Size	6 ft/sec	8 ft/sec
1.5"	38 GPM	51 GPM
2"	63 GPM	84 GPM
2.5	90 GPM	119 GPM
3.0"	138 GPM	184 GPM
4.0"	235 GPM	312 GPM

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

https://assets.speakcdn.com/assets/2683/energy_efficient_sweep_els_specification_2020.pdf

https://assets.speakcdn.com/assets/1824/sweeps2013.pdf

Make sure that the pipe is sized correctly.

Spa jet pumps need BIG pipe, especially on suction.

Sweep 90s are nice, but not critical if the pipe is sized correctly.

 

[DandT40]

You need a relay for the Filter pump even though it is not going to be used for the pump.

The filter pump relay will power the SWG.

You will probably want to control the pool and spa lights separately, so that is 2 relays and two transformers.

If you have more than 1 pool light, you might want to control them separately.

That is an extra relay and an extra transformer.

You need a relay for the spa blower.

You might want to control landscaping lights from a relay.

We will have 2 lights in the pool and then 1 in the spa. Ideally we have some options to grow/add lights and it’s not just maxed out day one because you raise all good points. We don’t really know right now if I’m honest. Easy to say one switch to control them all is fine! Until it’s not…. Lol