Zero and zero

[clawson2000]

I have a brand new Master Spas H2X Trainer 15 and my first time trying an SWG in a swim spa. I cleaned it with Ahhhsome before filling it with fresh water. Have a brand new TFTestkits salt kit - beautiful new case.

The water is crystal clear and I did swim in it once yesterday and felt great. But my chlorine reads zero / near zero and my cya reads near zero, maybe 10 or 20ppm. With 1620 gallons cost is just not an issue for me on any chemicals so I purchased Leslie's Instant Conditioner Plus. After adding the correct dosage for 30ppm it read dead-zero. So I added another half dose, then another full dose after that. The cya test water is barely cloudy at all 2-4 days later.

I added a dose of bleach yesterday before swimming that should have brought it to 3. Today FC reads .5 or less. The Eco Pur filter is still installed. I also had a funny yellow stain/goo at the water line only right above where the SWG is draped over the side - it wiped off easily enough but is concerning.

What is going on? I thought perhaps the first cya addition I didn't get the thick white goo mixed enough. But now I've put in like half the gallon and I still get no reading.

Am I doomed? Should I drain and refill and start with good old dry cya? It can't tell if the SWG has ever come on except the one time I ran it manually.

TA 70 goal 60
CH 220 (out of the tap)
PH 7.5
Borates 30
FC 0
CYA 0

 

[clawson2000]

Links

https://lesliespool.com/leslies-instant-pool-water-conditioner-plus-1-gallon/12323.html

Eco Pur Charge Filter PMA-EPR

Eco Pur Charge filters by Master Spas can help reduce your chlorine usage by up to 75%, while also extending the lifetime of your spa or hot tub. The new Eco Pur Charge Filter is the replacement for all previous Eco Pur Mineral cartridges for Master Spas hot tubs. Choose the best for your spa...

www.masterspaparts.com

MegaChlor

MegaChlor pool salt water chlorine generator with Self Cleaning Reverse Polarity technology

controlomatic.ecwid.com

 

[Mdragger88]

You must add chlorine to get to a level that the swcg can maintain.
Until you get things sorted do that every day so the spa stays above minimum.
FC/CYA Levels
You may want to forego the liquid conditioner & use dichlor for a bit which will add approximately 1ppm of cya for every 1ppm of fc if its 99% dichlor.
Use PoolMath effects of adding to account for the cya as well as its acidic effects.
We don’t really recommend the liquid cya unless you intend to use the entire bottle at once & rinse it well in the pool because it does get stuck in the bottom.
The dichlor is nice to have on hand to replenish cya as well because cya degrades faster in hotter water.
I use it every couple weeks instead of liquid chlorine to maintain my cya level. I keep my tub 104 degrees.
I’m not sure how the settings work for the megachlor. The smaller chlormaker has its own system of “levels” that don’t necessarily correlate to time. I will look over the mega’s manual & see what I find.
For reference- My saltron mini just comes on for whatever hours you set (its displayed numbers correlate with hours)
& repeats that 24hours later or whenever power is reapplied after an outage. I use a timer to remove & reapply power so it runs for an hour or two multiple times per day.
You need to try & catch it while it’s supposed to be operating & confirm it’s producing. There should be a visible cloud of chlorine gas around the cell.

 

[clawson2000]

When I ran it manually there was definitely a cloud around it. First time seeing one in action, which was cool. I mostly want to use the SWG because I travel a lot and my water gets ruined from being out of balance so long. I keep it around 87 degrees.

I was avoiding dichlor because I can afford such a small amount of anything/everything else. And definitely don't need more than 30ppm of cya in a warm but constantly closed spa. I have the pump set to run 4 hours at night - plus the 30 min or so of swimming/exercise.

I will try adding bleach until I get to 2-4ppm and report back. You don't think it's necessary to start over with fresh water after all that Leslie's junk?

 

[Mdragger88]

No need to dump the water.
I would get a 1# can/jar of 99% dichlor. 1# lasts me over a year - I only use it for startup to get cya to 30ppm & once every couple weeKs.
It can be a pain to try and measure such small amounts of dry stabilizer - overshooting is extremely easy to do.
For the unit itself- you may just need to adjust the zero point if you do in fact have the CD version (chlorine detection) of the megachlor. This is new but it operates the same way as its little brother, the smarter spa, and it can take some adjustment/tinkering but once you get it set right it should work fine.

 

[RDspaguy]

have a brand new Master Spas H2X Trainer 15 and my first time trying an SWG in a swim spa.

Did the swg come with the spa? Did you check warranty issues regarding it's use? You may have just voided your spa warranty.

There should be a visible cloud of chlorine gas around the cell.

Around the cell laying on the side of the spa? I don't know how anybody thought that was a good idea, but I understand why it might void your warranty.

No need to dump the water.

Ummmm... I'm unclear on how much of what was added and what is being used to measure it, but spas, even swim spas, are often better dumped and refilled than corrected with chemicals. This is not a 30k gallon pool. When in doubt, dump it out.

also had a funny yellow stain/goo at the water line only right above where the SWG is draped over the side - it

C'mon. It's not rocket science. Get rid of that F'ing thing before it costs you $$$$.

 

[Mdragger88]

@RDspaguy - the only thing he used is liquid cya - it just wasn’t mixed well so it was ineffective. This is not uncommon for liquid cya which why we only recommend using it if you can use the entire bottle so you get the expected rise. Unfortunately a whole bottle in his swim spa would result in way too much.
there’s no need to dump the entire swim spa because of this. Just use dichlor to properly chlorinate while simultaneously adding cya until 30ppm cya is reached. Its been only a day or two & he has added fc just maybe not enough.
All drape over cells (& non drape over ones) produce this “cloud” its a mix of hydrogen bubbles & chlorine gas. It is almost immediately diluted by the rest of the water in the spa. I have turn everything off to see mine in my tub.
The cord where the swg is hanging may be a place in which debris/scum can accumulate similar to the skimmer area.
The two are likely unrelated.
Until recently I also used a drape over swcg in my pool - it was definitely a place that caught stuff.
He just used Ahhsome & its a fresh fill. The “scum” could easily just be some residual working its way out of the plumbing.
I agree that if he’s concerned he should check his warranty info about the swg but that doesn’t mean it’s going to trash his tub.
In my quick skim of the rather large manual all I saw was mention that dichlor was the only “ approved “ sanitizer (which we know can’t work long term as the cya would be through the roof) - this also excludes liquid chlorine.
& that Trichlor & cal hypo were expressly prohibited. No explicit salt/swcg clause or anything.
@clawson2000 does this swim spa have ozone or uv? I saw they are optional add ons in the manual.
If so those may be consuming your fc.

 

[RDspaguy]

“cloud” its a mix of hydrogen bubbles & chlorine gas. It is almost immediately diluted by the rest of the water in the spa.

also had a funny yellow stain/goo at the water line only right above where the SWG is draped over the side

The two are likely unrelated.

I'm not convinced.
Also, why are are we generating an explosive gas under a spa cover? Or in a pipe for that matter? Filter explosions are real, you know.
Yeah, never been a fan of salt cells.

agree that if he’s concerned he should check his warranty info about the swg but that doesn’t mean it’s going to trash his tub.

It doesn't necessarily mean it will damage his tub (trash is a pretty strong word), but the potential is there and it does happen. He should at least know the risk. But more importantly, he should know the warranty terms, as a voided warranty is voided for EVERYTHING, not just the stuff that might be damaged by the cell or chemistry. It may be foolish, but most spa manufacturers are sticklers about that kind of thing. Some folks don't care, which is fine, but others do.

dichlor was the only “ approved “ sanitizer (which we know can’t work long term as the cya would be through the roof)

That's the norm, as is powder ph reducer and shock. You'll never see a potentially hazardous chemical "approved" in liquid form by a spa manufacturer.
As for working long term, they tell you to change the water every 3 months, usually have ozone and mineral options, (which, as I've argued since coming on this forum, are effective at reducing the need for constant high cl levels) and they recommend mps for shock. You can most certainly go 3 month using only dichlor for cl. This is the only place that says you can't. It's also the only place that says dichlor is acidic and liquid is neutral, but I digress.

No explicit salt/swcg clause or anything.

It would be considered non-oem equipment installed by an un-authorized installer (unless your dealer "installed" it every time). Bye-bye warranty.
I'm not the guy who writes the warranty or decides what gets covered, I'm just telling you what I've learned in my 27 years doing this.

 

[Mdragger88]

Before we scare the pants off the guy,
It is a very small amount of hydrogen bubbles & chlorine gas in a quite large amount of water so there’s no major risk of explosion there with a drape over style unit. I think we would have heard a story or two by now if that were an issue.
Obviously in a sealed pipe with no flow that would certainly be a problem. That’s a different story & something we make sure to warn folks about.
Maybe one day you’ll come to the salty dark side - we’ll keep working on ya

Sadly many pool & spa equipment manufacturers will find any reason possible to void your warranty - that includes using liquid chlorine if they find out (not sure how they would know other than admission).
Everyone should assess their own risk tolerance there. Many of TFP’s recommendations are at odds with alot of manufacturer’s recommendations. For instance the instructions in my tub’s manual says to put dichlor & all chemicals into the skimmer - I won’t be doing that.
I personally looked up the cost to replace my pump/heater (& all the replacement parts) & I was comfortable taking the responsibility for that & any other part of my tub if using salt did me in while still in the warranty period. The convenience it provides was worth it to me & still is.
Not saying warranty shouldn’t be taken into consideration but that everyone’s risk tolerance is different.
Many people do choose to wait until after or near when their warranty expires to “alter” their spa if they are concerned.

 

[RDspaguy]

not sure how they would know other than admission).

Bleach stains on side panels and damaged jet gaskets and scale at one spot (where bleach is added), just to name a couple. But it's usually done in cases where there is excessive or recurring damage. Replace your heater every year under warranty and they will get you for chemistry, as they can prove that only a fraction of a percent of their spas have these claims. Then they send someone to dig. If they don't trust the dealer to be honest about chem use they'll send a factory guy. When you have a database of millions, it's easy to see the anomolies. When you're 1 out of 100k, it's probably your fault.
Just wire it wrong, or by a non-licensed contractor, and place a service call. That's the best way to void your warranty. I've seen day-old tubs voided because they had it wired wrong.

For instance the instructions in my tub’s manual says to put dichlor & all chemicals into the skimme

To avoid bleaching the shell and fittings. Pumps and heaters can be fixed, but bleached shells cannot. You're fine if jets are running, but those instructions are written for the stupid. Also, the shell has a looooong warranty compared to the equipment.
Is your tub acrylic or roto-mold?

The convenience it provides was worth it to me & still is.

And that's the kicker. It's a matter of choice, but that should be an informed choice in my opinion. Maybe because I've been the guy having to tell people that they aren't getting the repair covered. It's not a fun place to be, and is part of the reason I don't do warranty repair in my business. Plus, the warranty service provider gets screwed by this more than the customer, as we often don't know it's been declined until it's done and we've filed for payment, then it's up to us to get payment from the customer (good luck).

Many of TFP’s recommendations are at odds with alot of manufacturer’s recommendations.

That's because TFP is about owners, not financial liability. The manufacturers terms are for their benefit, not yours. They don't care if you have to replace your equipment every few years as long as they don't have to replace your spa every 10.
Like I've said many times, one of the main differences in price for spas comes down to warranty coverage. High-end tubs have high-end warranty coverage, and cheap tubs aren't covering anything if they can help it.

 

[Mdragger88]

Is your tub acrylic or roto-mold?

I’ve got a roto molded tub.
1yr warranty on plumbing, cabinet, cover & equipment
5yr warranty on structure & shell/surface. I am beyond all my warranty periods & thus far none of the things you listed have occurred- I assume because I use the practices recommended here like slowly pouring in bleach, dichlor, or MA into the stream of a running jet away from the shell. & I also pay attention to my chemistry & follow the
FC/CYA Levels
& other recommended levels.
I recently replaced my stainless steel jet assembly because it had a little rust spot. As soon as it appeared I ran all the tests & found I had little to no cya so I keep a much closer eye on that now along with making sure my chem adds are most certainly away from it as well incase that played any kind of role.
My tub is a pretty cheap one so I doubt my one ss trim ring is superb quality in the first place. It’s also possible that I compromised it by scratching it with my ring or the hose nozzle or something.

The deal is that nothing is set it & forget it with a spa or a pool. Whichever sanitation method is chosen they all have pros & cons & they all require best practices & monitoring or bad things can happen. Fortunately for most things there’s a solution.
The choices & do’s/don’ts can be overwhelming at first. If the OP wishes to continue with the swcg or even just stick with manual chlorination we can certainly help guide him on best practices to prevent the issues mentioned in this thread.

 

[RDspaguy]

thus far none of the things you listed have occurred

Yeah, like I said, their terms are for extreme circumstances in most cases. Simply running the jets while adding chems will usually suffice but you'd be surprised how many people don't bother with instructions regardless of source or simplicity.
I had one customer call complaining of no heat. As usual, I asked when she last cleaned her filter and she replied "It has a filter?". The spa was several years old as I recall, I want to say 5, and she bought it new. Imagine going 5 years without cleaning your filter! That's just my favorite example, there are many more. Like I say, just being on a pool forum puts you in the 1% of spa owners. Most of them are beyond clueless and apparently happy that way since they make no effort to change it. But that is the perspective of the guy who only sees the problems. Nobody ever calls me to say everything's peachy.

trim ring is superb quality

It might be chromed pot metal, they have those too and they are very sensitive to ph and scratches.

nothing is set it & forget it with a spa or a pool. Whichever sanitation method is chosen they all have pros & cons & they all require best practices & monitoring or bad things can happen

️️️

can certainly help guide him

 

[Mdragger88]

I don’t even wanna think about some of the stuff you get to see! 5yrs!!! Eeeew
You have solidified why I have trust issues when it comes to other people’s pools & spas
It’s the same in the electrical field- people are either scared to death or wayyy too brave!
I’m talking very grown older adults who thought they could fix a receptacle by prying in it with a fork & look you straight in the face & say “I am not sure what’s wrong but the breaker keeps tripping”

 

[RDspaguy]

don’t even wanna think about some of the stuff you get to see! 5yrs!!! Eeeew

I haven't even got to the gross ones. Want to know what makes ME vomit?

You have solidified why I have trust issues when it comes to other people’s pools & spas

Then my time here has not been wasted.

It’s the same in the electrical field

I was an IBEW local 1 class A commercial apprentice. Long story short, I had to choose between my kids and my job (so much for brotherhood). My second non-union job was Morgan spas with an ad for electrical and plumbing experience. That was January of '96. I've been electrocuted 21 times since then, not counting gfci trips. I've been caught-up long enough to wonder if this was the end, and took 650v to ground from a hi-pot with a shorted lead. But I am an expert with a wire-stretcher, both left and right-handed. BTW, Klein sucks.

 

[Mdragger88]

I haven't even got to the gross ones. Want to know what makes ME vomit?


Then my time here has not been wasted.


I was an IBEW local 1 class A commercial apprentice. Long story short, I had to choose between my kids and my job (so much for brotherhood). My second non-union job was Morgan spas with an ad for electrical and plumbing experience. That was January of '96. I've been electrocuted 21 times since then, not counting gfci trips. I've been caught-up long enough to wonder if this was the end, and took 650v to ground from a hi-pot with a shorted lead. But I am an expert with a wire-stretcher, both left and right-handed. BTW, Klein sucks.

Thank goodness I have never took any bad ones! I have always been very careful.
When I was an apprentice there was another apprentice at my company who took a pretty bad hit from an arc flash (he should have never been in a hot panel alone per IBEW rules) He is still disabled today. That was in 2000.
I too had to choose- I chose to raise my kiddos & take care of the fort so my hubs could still do his union job (pipefitter). The construction industry isn’t very parent oriented. They hold it against you when your kid is sick too many times or whatever even if they say they don’t. Thankfully It’s worked out for us and I am still very grateful for my time in the trade.

 

[RDspaguy]

I went through a nasty divorce/custody battle that had me following my ex around to gather evidence of her, well, lets say self-destructive activities, and I was missing alot of time as a result. As an apprentice, even when finished with class, that's a no-no. My second to last time before the board I told them where they could put it and volunteered to help if they needed me to. My last time they kept me sitting in the lobby for 2 hours then had one of the instructors come tell me I was canned. Guess they figured I might not wait for them to ask this time. They were right, I was headed for jail that day. Not in a good place, if you know what I mean.
But it was free training that I've used just about every day since, and I got custody of my kids, so it worked out for me too. Had I remained an electrician I'd have missed all the fun of 21 electrocutions, and never met all you lovely folks at tfp.