I have no idea how Leslies does phosphates testing, but I have no other way to test for them, so that is the one text I have to rely on them for. I will say this - the first time they tested, they got 2900, the second time, they got 3886. Either way, even if the margin of error was 2000, after adding a qt of SeaKlear, the numbers should have come down to zero.
Yellow stains on liner
- Thread starter cholmes28
- Start date
Yes, pool cleared up after 2 days, but more troubling is how can phosphates go up by 1000, after adding enough SeaKlear to drop them 3000 for my size pool?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,707
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
They may not have gotten the correct number the first time around. Your phosphates could actually be very, very high and their testing setup, whatever they use, simply is not calibrated to read that high. The K-1106 residential phosphate test can only read as high as 6000ppb and, it's not that exact at such high levels. These tests are not like the chlorine test where you can add a drop at a time and count the number of drops until clear. Phosphate testing relies on color comparison and, for a residential tester, it's basically looking at a color chart to see if your phosphate level looks closer to the blue color for 500ppb or the slightly darker blue color for 1000ppb. If a digital phosphate tester is used, those can very easily go out of calibration and give all kinds of crazy answers. This is why pool store testing is so untrustworthy because even when they have "the good equipment" to test stuff with, they rarely take care of it and keep it in good shape. Who cares if it's not working precisely, since their job is to sell you chemicals, not fix your problems.
If you added the full bottle of SeaKlear and let the filter run for 48 hours before backwashing and the water cleared up, then you removed 3,000ppb worth of phosphates. The chemistry works, that much is for sure. If the pool store is detecting more phosphates, then you either do have more phosphates in the water and they screwed up the first test OR you have no phosphates in the water and they screwed up the second test. But I can tell you from my practical experience with using phosphate removers and my K-1106 test kit that every time I have added SeaKlear PR to my pool, the phosphates have gone to zero.
I have not fully read this entire thread so forgive me if I'm asking the same questions over again, are you now or have you ever added metal/scale control products like Metal Magic or Jack's Magic stuff? If so, have you used it regularly or as a one time addition?
The first time I did the AA treatment I used Metal Magic. The second and third times I used Metal Free by Natural Chemistry from Leslies. The strange thing is that my pool has cleared up and the staining appears to be gone and iron level is zero according to my test strips and Leslie's test. The downside is that I have 0.7 copper now because of that CuLator iron bacteria eliminator kit I used and my CuLator packets have turned blue which is supposed to indicate they are pulling copper from water. I mailed them a water sample which they were going to test fully and try to figure out what is going on. I guess I should order a few bottles of Metal magic to use as maintenance treatments but not sure how much to add and whether I should do every month to every two weeks.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,707
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
If you’re going use metal magic or any metal scale control chemicals, it’s best not to bother with phosphate remover. Most of the scale control chemicals are phosphonate based and will breakdown into phosphates. It sounded like you were trying to get away from using those chemicals completely and so in that case you need to keep the water’s pH on the low side and use only the minimal amount of chlorine possible. Phosphate removers can help with that as it gives some wiggle room on the FC. But if you plan to use metal sequestrants, then you have to follow their balancing guidelines.
Post the water test results when you get them. The CuLator website says they use ICP-MS to measure trace metal levels so, assuming they’re doing the tests correctly, they should be able to give you accurate values for any metal ions in the water.
Post the water test results when you get them. The CuLator website says they use ICP-MS to measure trace metal levels so, assuming they’re doing the tests correctly, they should be able to give you accurate values for any metal ions in the water.
You are correct that I was trying to avoid those chemicals but I thought I read where you said that if I am going to try and keep pH at 7.2 and FC on low end of range, that removing phosphates would help control possible algae blooms. I am having a hard time keeping pH at 7.2. It keeps creeping up to 7.6 - 7.8.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,707
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
You are correct. There’s no easy solution here. Either you have to keep the pH and FC on the low side with lots of testing and adjusting OR spend lots of money on the metal inhibitors. Either way, it’s going to be work to keep the stains at bay.
Let’s see what the water test results come back with. Perhaps there’s some new information there that might help.
Here are the test results from Periodic:
In addition to the results image, they said that my LSI is -1.47, and it should be -0.3 to +0.5 which means that my water is corrosive, and is removing metals and other materials from hard surfaces in contact with the water. I had never heard of this before, but he said LSI is a calculation using all of the water chemistry parameters – alkalinity, pH, hardness, and temperature (minor impact) to determine the corrosiveness of the water. Because my alkalinity and hardness are low, the water is looking for things to dissolve. The best way to correct this is to get the alkalinity up to 100 or so and the hardness to 200 or so. I have never worried about hardness since I have a vinyl pool, but if his suggestion is valid, then I would need to add like 44lbs of Calcium Chloride, along with 5lbs washing soda which would raise pH to 7.6, and TA to 100.
Also, the other thing that is of concern is that they say my CYA is zero, which is strange because I tested it 2 days before I sent the sample, and twice after, and al 3 times I have been getting 30-35, plus the pool store tests are showing 26. If it is truly at zero, that would explain my chlorine demand, because I have been adding a gallon of 10% bleach in the morning (which would raise FC to about 4), and 24 hours later, it is zero. So I would need to add either 3 gal liquid stabilizer or 9lbs dry stabilizer.
Very interested in your thoughts and also with all the stuff I may be adding, if you can give me the correct order and how much wait time between that would be great.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,707
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Ok, so to be clear, this testing is from a company that is going to simply parrot the standard pool industry recommend levels without regard to much logic. Yes, your saturation index is probably very negative, but you have a vinyl liner pool and so there is no need to have water that is oversaturated with calcium. TFP typically recommends a minimum of 50-100ppm CALCIUM hardness (not general or total hardness). At 25ppm your water is low in calcium but that is only really going to manifest itself, possibly, as water foaminess. If you raised your CH up to 100ppm, that would be totally fine. So, not to get too technical, but TFP has had this discussion many times in the past and saturation indices (whether you use LSI or CSI or some other index) ONLY give you an idea of how saturated or unsaturated calcium is in the water, that has NOTHING directly to do with metal corrosion. The assertion that because your water is not fully saturated with calcium that it will somehow look for metals to corrode is nonsense. Saturation indices ONLY apply to calcium, not metal corrosion. Metal corrosion, for the most part, is dominated by pH, TDS/conductivity and whether certain ions, like chloride and sulfates, are present. Your water pH seems a little low and if your tap water is normally that low, you can certainly raise pH a bit. But I think you have been keeping your pH on the low side because of the stains, so that explains your low pH not what your normal pH levels would be. I honestly would ignore most of their recommendations.
The copper metal came into your water form the algaecide that they told you to use. So, at nearly 0.5ppm, it is high enough to cause stains. The only way to get rid of copper is to exchange pool water with fresh, copper-free water. That can be done with draining and refills or perhaps draining before a big rainstorm and using rainwater to refill the pool.
If you don't have a pool heater and there's no metal in the pool, then there's really no issue with your saturation index.
The copper metal came into your water form the algaecide that they told you to use. So, at nearly 0.5ppm, it is high enough to cause stains. The only way to get rid of copper is to exchange pool water with fresh, copper-free water. That can be done with draining and refills or perhaps draining before a big rainstorm and using rainwater to refill the pool.
If you don't have a pool heater and there's no metal in the pool, then there's really no issue with your saturation index.
When I asked them why their CYA test was zero when mine is 30 and the pool store is 26, and here was his response. I am not sure exactly what this means. But I’m not sure who to trust at this point should I increase by CYA or trust my numbers?
“We directly measure the CYA rather than looking for or measuring the melamine adduct on the strip or vial. Our test is more accurate. CYA is stable during shipping.”
- May 23, 2015
- 25,707
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I honestly don't trust them and I think they screwed up. If you have been adding any stabilized chlorine (dichlor or trichlor) to your pool OR you have been maintaining your CYA using granular stabilizer, then you have CYA in your water sample. The only limitation to you or the pool store using the melamine test is that it's not possible to visually detect below 20ppm and 30ppm is the floor that most people will be able see the dot disappear. You would absolutely know if there was zero CYA in your water as you would see no cloudiness whatsoever when you add the R-0013. Either they messed up and forgot to do the CYA test with your sample or their machine is out of calibration.
Again, this is why it is so hard to trust these people offering free tests, their motive is to sell you something and so doing the test correctly is not really their concern.
I would say the only relevant part of their analysis that is worth the paper it was printed on is the copper number. Assuming they are correct (and their accuracy is highly suspect), then you should focus on getting water exchanged to lower than number. Less than 0.3ppm is where you want to be with copper so you would really only need to exchange about 33% of your pool volume to be safe.
As for your yellow stains, let me ask you this - if you take a couple of vitamin C tablets, crush them up and add them to a thin sock or nylon, could you leave that on the stain for a little while to see if it changes the color of the stain or lightens it at all? If the stain disappears, then it is iron. If the stain gets darker in color, then it's more likely copper.
Every time I had the stains I could take vitamin C put it in a sock and rub it in a pattern and that pattern with disappear where the stain was further I could take the sock and rub it around the return jets and they were turn from light brown to bright white. For some strange reason the last eight days I have had zero staining whatsoever and the pool is crystal clear this is the first time this is happened since I started this process
- May 23, 2015
- 25,707
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
So definitely iron then. I wouldn’t worry about the copper levels. Just use your seasonal rainfall to your advantage. If you see a big storm coming your way, drain an inch or two of water out of the pool and let the rain refill it. You might need to rebalance the CYA after a time but it really shouldn’t be a huge deal.
Sounds like the filter is finally catching up and grabbing everything. Keep this post updated as you see new things.
Sounds like the filter is finally catching up and grabbing everything. Keep this post updated as you see new things.
One other thing, why is my water demanding so much chlorine? I have only been able to test in mornings, but I put in a gallon of 10% every am, and the next morning FC is zero. I just tested this am and here are my numbers. One other strange thing - if I run pH test First, I get light amber (7.0), But if I test anything else including pH, then Test for pH get 7.6-7.8. I always rinse the tube in pool after every test. So I am not sure if pH is 7, which is what Periodic got or 7.6.
FC 0
TA 80
pH 7.0
CYA 30
