Water rings in New plaster

[Dirk]

Took 24 hour pictures and nothing has changed (as suspected) PB is now contacting warranty company who will come out and take a water sample. Is there anyway I could possibly be screwed here?

Doubtful, unless the company(ies) responsible turn on you and out-n-out attempt to screw you over. You describe how the PB and/or the plaster company advised adding a gallon of acid. Did you yourself add the acid, or did they? Any chance those exchanges were in writing, email maybe? Also, does your contract stipulate that the PB would perform the startup? And/or manage the pool for the first 30 days? Any mention of who is to manage filling the pool? Here's what I'm getting at: If you have written proof that (1) the contractor was responsible for filling the pool, the startup process, managing for the first 30 days and was responsible, one way or another, for adding that acid (dropping the pH), then you are totally in the clear. The more of those you can prove the better. But even if you can't actually prove any of those things, IMO, you'd still have a strong case. You hired a contractor to build you a pool. You are the consumer, not the expert. He didn't perform. His product has a significant defect in materials and/or workmanship. If you did no action that can be directly shown to have caused that defect (and you didn't, of course), then you are not liable for the repair. And it would be a huge stretch for the PB to prove that those rings were caused by anyone or anything that was not in his charge. He is liable.

So, first things first. We'll wait out the warranty assessment before we start lobbing grenades. In the meantime, it's important that you:
1. Do not pay the contractor any more money. If he asks, we can get into why you don't have to. For now, retain whatever leverage you have left.
2. Do not do anything else to the pool. Don't try to fix anything yourself. Don't add any chemicals. If asked to, simply reply you are not comfortable doing so and would prefer the PB or his rep perform any and all further actions. If you doing the brushing is mentioned in the contract, or otherwise in writing, that's OK to do.
3. Minimize or eliminate the he said/they said scenarios. As Kim suggested, capture things in writing as much as possible. If conversations take place, have someone witness them. No more conversation between just you and the PB. Limit phone calls to "Hey, can you email me those instructions?" or "Hey, can we meet at the pool to discuss that?" where you can meet him with a witness. Seriously.

This sounds ugly, I'm sure. You can still be respectful and tactful, even friendly, but if this goes south you want to be prepared. We here at TFP are treading lightly (well, others have, so far) because we are trying to help you via an Internet forum and posted pictures. We're not there at your pool, and we weren't witness to what transpired. But we all know what happened (or think we do). Someone from the PB's crew messed up and allowed water to puddle on new plaster. This is a well known and 100% preventable phenomenon, and 100% his responsibility. He knows this. The plaster guy does too. IMO, acid isn't going to fix this. Your pool is likely going to need to be replastered. They both know this, too, and are currently back-pedaling to find a way out of ponying up what this is going to cost someone. (Someone other than you.) We're all crossing our fingers for you that one of these guys (PB, or plasterer or warranty co) is going to man up and do the right thing. That is likely to happen. If not, we can point you in the direction of a resolution.

Let's think positive while we wait for the warranty assessment...

 

[Mr.Bond]

Phenomenal advice Dirk. I'll keep all that in mind and try to respond more thoroughly when I can. I got this email from the plaster company today

Hey Mike



Guys will be out today to drain and clean the spa. On Quartz finishes you have to watch your PH and Alk levels and make sure they never get above 7.6 and 120 on alk or the pool will become scale forming at this time and start turning white . We would like you to keep your Ph at 7.2 and your ALK at 80 at all times to keep your finish looking as good as possible



Thanks


I haven't been tasked to do anything but brush the pool since start up (aside from adding acid to the issues of the hot tub which is in writing) so the ph levels and Alkaline should fall on the start up guy who's been out a whopping ONE time in 6 days.... Maybe that's normal I don't know. I'm not sure if "cleaning the spa" is going to fix the issue or not. What exactly would they be doing?

 

[Mr.Bond]

It looks like water may have dripped in from the returns and drain when you were filling the pool and sat on the dry plaster. Did you start filling the spa before the water reached the level of the pool returns?

I don't believe so. The plaster company started the fill. All we did was move the hose into the spa once it hit halfway up the water line tile

 

[ajw22]

Phenomenal advice Dirk. I'll keep all that in mind and try to respond more thoroughly when I can. I got this email from the plaster company today

Hey Mike



Guys will be out today to drain and clean the spa. On Quartz finishes you have to watch your PH and Alk levels and make sure they never get above 7.6 and 120 on alk or the pool will become scale forming at this time and start turning white . We would like you to keep your Ph at 7.2 and your ALK at 80 at all times to keep your finish looking as good as possible



Thanks


I haven't been tasked to do anything but brush the pool since start up (aside from adding acid to the issues of the hot tub which is in writing) so the ph levels and Alkaline should fall on the start up guy who's been out a whopping ONE time in 6 days.... Maybe that's normal I don't know. I'm not sure if "cleaning the spa" is going to fix the issue or not. What exactly would they be doing?

Being Blamed for Plaster Discolorations? Don't Get Hoodwinked

Some newly plastered pools (including quartz and pebble finishes) may develop either color fading, white soft spotting (also incorrectly called "spot etching" by some plasterers), white streaking (in colored plaster), calcium nodules, gray mottling discoloration (of white plaster), spalling...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JJ_Tex]

I don't believe so. The plaster company started the fill. All we did was move the hose into the spa once it hit halfway up the water line tile

Hmm... that could be it. When we were filling ours, our PB had us start filling the spa right before the water got the the pool jets because he said once the pool return lines filled with water they could come out of the spa returns and cause staining. Good luck, hope they can get it straightened out.

PS - Love the Oilers glass.

 

[Mr.Bond]

Hmm... that could be it. When we were filling ours, our PB had us start filling the spa right before the water got the the pool jets because he said once the pool return lines filled with water they could come out of the spa returns and cause staining. Good luck, hope they can get it straightened out.

PS - Love the Oilers glass.

Luv ya blue will forever be my team lol

 

[jimmythegreek]

It's hard to tell from the pics but it does look like standing water in plaster. The sundeck has rings around every fitting so that's kind of a telling sign. In the spa I cant see the fittings. If those were low spots the cream could have migrated to the low spot giving uneven consistency or dry time. As someone posted above it is possible to get water out of fittings on the fill if not careful. The preferred way is to truck water in and let them do it fast and to the tile on pool and spa. As said let them handle everything going forward. An acid wash will even it out some but I doubt you will get rid of it competely. Hopefully they can blend it better so it's not so noticeable

 

[Dirk]

This would be my concern about their "cleaning" process, and why I cautioned you about acid washing, if what they mean by "cleaning" is that they're going to acid wash your finish. Emptying the body of water is the first step of an acid wash (and granted many other processes), so that's my red flag. I'm no expert, and I'd happily be proven wrong, but this is my understanding about acid washing (and the experience I do have is with plaster and pebble, not with quartz). Contractors are quick to try acid washing to fix stains and unevenness in plaster finishes, because it's a cheap fix that sometimes disguises a bad installation. Acid doesn't magically attack just the stains, or somehow "find" the unevenness and smooth it out somehow. And even the most skilled application of acid could not target just the stains and somehow avoid the surrounding finish. No, what acid washing does is remove a layer of plaster. How much, and how deep, depends on how heavy-handed it is applied, and how quickly it is removed (neutralized). So an acid wash "skins" a layer of plaster off, and hopefully takes the stain or discoloration with it.

Here's the rub. (1) Acid washing will likely leave the surface rougher than before. It may be very slight, or it could be pretty bad. When they tried to acid wash my pool, to fix stains and calcium built up, the plaster later felt "stickier" than before. Etched. Just not as nice. That was the best areas. The worst areas were very badly pitted, and lower in the pool, where the residual acid mixture pooled, the plaster was completely destroyed. And the process only removed about half of the stains and calcium. (2) One way or another, you're going to end up with less plaster, even if the resulting feel is to your satisfaction. Plaster has a lifespan. Etching it and removing some of it is going to shorten its lifespan. I don't believe that to be disputable. By how much is also defined by how much plaster was removed by the acid, but invariably it is not enough to cause it to wear out in a few years, under warranty, but rather in five or more years, outside of warranty and after the PB's crew is long gone. Most "victims" of this process don't even realize, and have no great way to prove even if they did, that their plaster's life was shorter than it would have been otherwise. Most just figure, "Oh, my plaster is done," have it replaced, and the original offender gets off scott free.

It's like coming home with a loaf of bread from the bakery to find there is mold on top of the bread, a direct result of the baker's mis-handling of the bread, and certainly not your fault. So you go back and demand what's right. He takes a knife and trims off the top of your loaf and declares "There, no more mold." Great. But the crust (the best part) is now gone. And you have less bread! What's left is still bread, true. But not as good, not as much and most importantly NOT what you paid for.

I would inquire of them before they start if they plan to acid wash your pool (do it in writing). If they say yes, then it will be up to you to decide if this is an acceptable solution (assuming it works to remove the rings). Ask them about what I've described. See what they say about removing a layer of plaster and affecting longevity. Decide then, or beforehand, if this is going to be OK with you. And if not, prepare yourself to stand your ground and demand a proper fix (though I don't know what else that might be, short of the replacement of the plaster). See if you can get any other TFPers to weigh in on how an acid wash will solve your plaster issues (like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong).

An alternative that we've seen some here use (and this would apply if you go ahead with an acid wash or not) is to negotiate a reduction in price in exchange for you just living with the result (either accepting the stains as is, or the results of the acid wash and the shortening of your plaster's lifespan). This can work for both parties: the PB gets a less expensive solution than full replacement, and the consumer gets a little less pool but pays less for it.

My "perpetrator" first tried to declare my bad acid wash adequate and a success. And when I balked, he later declared that the problem was due to faulty plaster, not the acid wash. He even sent out a third party to help him establish that the plaster was to blame. This third party was a big mucky-muck from the NPC (the same guys that onBalance describes in the article Allen linked you to). Anywho, this guy wouldn't say it was the fault of the contractor, but he also couldn't bring himself to say it was entirely the plaster's fault, either. This woeful tale is described at length in posts I wrote when I first found TFP, but the short version is: I stuck to my guns, would not take any of their BS as gospel, and demanded plaster replacement. When the contractor refused, I had it replaced anyway, later went after him, and eventually forced him to pay for the entire repair, without going to court. Mine was "a happy ending," though the stress I endured (it took over six months and many letters) was awful. More than anything, it was the letters we exchanged (as I stopped talking to the guy all together) that eventually hung the guy, and why he capitulated. In his letters he incriminated himself, and later realized he would lose a court battle. (Which is why Kim and I are advising the "everything in writing" scheme.) You're going to have to decide what is or is not acceptable to you, and how much you're willing to endure to get what is. I hated the process while I was in the middle of it, but I'm very happy with the result (a new, gorgeous pool). The stress was awful, to be sure, but I know myself well enough to know that had I given in, my regret for doing so would be worse... It's gut-check time.

 

[Mr.Bond]

This would be my concern about their "cleaning" process, and why I cautioned you about acid washing, if what they mean by "cleaning" is that they're going to acid wash your finish. Emptying the body of water is the first step of an acid wash (and granted many other processes), so that's my red flag. I'm no expert, and I'd happily be proven wrong, but this is my understanding about acid washing (and the experience I do have is with plaster and pebble, not with quartz). Contractors are quick to try acid washing to fix stains and unevenness in plaster finishes, because it's a cheap fix that sometimes disguises a bad installation. Acid doesn't magically attack just the stains, or somehow "find" the unevenness and smooth it out somehow. And even the most skilled application of acid could not target just the stains and somehow avoid the surrounding finish. No, what acid washing does is remove a layer of plaster. How much, and how deep, depends on how heavy-handed it is applied, and how quickly it is removed (neutralized). So an acid wash "skins" a layer of plaster off, and hopefully takes the stain or discoloration with it.

Here's the rub. (1) Acid washing will likely leave the surface rougher than before. It may be very slight, or it could be pretty bad. When they tried to acid wash my pool, to fix stains and calcium built up, the plaster later felt "stickier" than before. Etched. Just not as nice. That was the best areas. The worst areas were very badly pitted, and lower in the pool, where the residual acid mixture pooled, the plaster was completely destroyed. And the process only removed about half of the stains and calcium. (2) One way or another, you're going to end up with less plaster, even if the resulting feel is to your satisfaction. Plaster has a lifespan. Etching it and removing some of it is going to shorten its lifespan. I don't believe that to be disputable. By how much is also defined by how much plaster was removed by the acid, but invariably it is not enough to cause it to wear out in a few years, under warranty, but rather in five or more years, outside of warranty and after the PB's crew is long gone. Most "victims" of this process don't even realize, and have no great way to prove even if they did, that their plaster's life was shorter than it would have been otherwise. Most just figure, "Oh, my plaster is done," have it replaced, and the original offender gets off scott free.

It's like coming home with a loaf of bread from the bakery to find there is mold on top of the bread, a direct result of the baker's mis-handling of the bread, and certainly not your fault. So you go back and demand what's right. He takes a knife and trims off the top of your loaf and declares "There, no more mold." Great. But the crust (the best part) is now gone. And you have less bread! What's left is still bread, true. But not as good, not as much and most importantly NOT what you paid for.

I would inquire of them before they start if they plan to acid wash your pool (do it in writing). If they say yes, then it will be up to you to decide if this is an acceptable solution (assuming it works to remove the rings). Ask them about what I've described. See what they say about removing a layer of plaster and affecting longevity. Decide then, or beforehand, if this is going to be OK with you. And if not, prepare yourself to stand your ground and demand a proper fix (though I don't know what else that might be, short of the replacement of the plaster). See if you can get any other TFPers to weigh in on how an acid wash will solve your plaster issues (like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong).

An alternative that we've seen some here use (and this would apply if you go ahead with an acid wash or not) is to negotiate a reduction in price in exchange for you just living with the result (either accepting the stains as is, or the results of the acid wash and the shortening of your plaster's lifespan). This can work for both parties: the PB gets a less expensive solution than full replacement, and the consumer gets a little less pool but pays less for it.

My "perpetrator" first tried to declare my bad acid wash adequate and a success. And when I balked, he later declared that the problem was due to faulty plaster, not the acid wash. He even sent out a third party to help him establish that the plaster was to blame. This third party was a big mucky-muck from the NPC (the same guys that onBalance describes in the article Allen linked you to). Anywho, this guy wouldn't say it was the fault of the contractor, but he also couldn't bring himself to say it was entirely the plaster's fault, either. This woeful tale is described at length in posts I wrote when I first found TFP, but the short version is: I stuck to my guns, would not take any of their BS as gospel, and demanded plaster replacement. When the contractor refused, I had it replaced anyway, later went after him, and eventually forced him to pay for the entire repair, without going to court. Mine was "a happy ending," though the stress I endured (it took over six months and many letters) was awful. More than anything, it was the letters we exchanged (as I stopped talking to the guy all together) that eventually hung the guy, and why he capitulated. In his letters he incriminated himself, and later realized he would lose a court battle. (Which is why Kim and I are advising the "everything in writing" scheme.) You're going to have to decide what is or is not acceptable to you, and how much you're willing to endure to get what is. I hated the process while I was in the middle of it, but I'm very happy with the result (a new, gorgeous pool). The stress was awful, to be sure, but I know myself well enough to know that had I given in, my regret for doing so would be worse... It's gut-check time.

Incredible information. I can't thank you enough

 

[Dirk]

Sorry, I was all fired up this morning! Others here don't endorse my "both barrels" approach (and I've only shared the "lite" version so far!). Little harm would come from you tempering it, at least at first. Play to his ego, and/or his reputation as a builder. Express your concern about an acid wash (if that's what they're planning) and about what you're learning about it, and about proper plaster installation. Ask him point blank: would he want his own pool to look like this? Or to have a layer of it skinned off to make up for a mistake? Or other similar, "softer" approaches (still all in writing though, or in front of a witness). If he's got a conscience, decent ethics and/or any pride, maybe he'll come through and do the right thing, without you having to get ugly. My contractor was a snake (I later found out I was not his first victim), so I tend to project. Ya gotta wade through TFP advice, mine especially, and extract what works for you, what makes sense to you...

 

[jimmythegreek]

Dirk explained it very well. That's the meat of the situation. Usually a good plaster crew can be careful of where they wanna wash and for how long it's all experience and touch and feel. If you dont have faith in them leave it as is. Theres a chance it could look worst

 

[Mr.Bond]

Just an update. They came out and "cleaned" the spa. Waiting on feedback from the plaster company on what exactly they did. But the spa looks absolutely beautiful now....... And the pool is getting worse now. The spa came out absolutely gorgeous and looks exactly what we think the plaster supposed to look like. But the pool seems to be getting much much worse. y'all please see the pictures below and tell me if I'm crazy. The texture is completely different as well. Granted the spa was just done yesterday, will it change at all in appearance? If so how much?

You guys have been incredible, can't thank you enough

 

[kimkats]

Keep a close and I mean CLOSE eye on the levels and brush as often as you can with the pump running to keep that spa looking that awesome!!

Pool-they can make it as pretty!

 

[Dirk]

Well, it'll be interesting to know how they did that, but there's no disputing it looks fantastic!

 

[kimkats]

Mr. Bond can you stand to put your hand/arm in the water in the spa? (might be too cold) I would LOVE for you to feel it and see how it feels. Use the back of your hand to feel it also.

 

[Mr.Bond]

Mr. Bond can you stand to put your hand/arm in the water in the spa? (might be too cold) I would LOVE for you to feel it and see how it feels. Use the back of your hand to feel it also.

I'll do it again when I get home. Definitely has more texture and slight roughness to it compared to the pool but it looks and feels exactly like the sample we chose it from

 

[Dirk]

TFP Experts: does a quartz installation work like pebble, in that the installer uses an initial acid wash to burn off some cream to reveal the proper depth of quartz?

 

[Mr.Bond]

I'll do it again when I get home. Definitely has more texture and slight roughness to it compared to the pool but it looks and feels exactly like the sample we chose it from

Im starting the think, given what I've researched and what my pool guy just did. The plaster guys didn't acid wash the plaster before filling it up or something of the sort. We NEVER saw the specs of black in the plaster when it was first installed. Pool guy came out and put acid on the sun deck and it looks night and day different, just like the spa looks now after it was redone. The pool guy originally thought we put the cheap Altima plaster in because the black grains were never even visible from day one and it was SUPER dusty when brushing . Now the areas that have been acid washed look exactly like the sample did from the get go. PB is coming in the morning for the first time to put eyes on it. I won't settle for anything less than it being drained and acid washed completely. Then the fight of who's paying for the sewer and water bill will commenced. Pictures are some before and after of the sun deck with pool guy acid washing today. The others are initial fill up, you can see (knowing what I know now) the plaster never looked right from the get go

 

[Mr.Bond]

TFP Experts: does a quartz installation work like pebble, in that the installer uses an initial acid wash to burn off some cream to reveal the proper depth of quartz?

Would love to know this

 

[IMissNimoy]

Would love to know this

I'm not a TFP expert but my PB did an acid wash before filling my pool. I want to say it was the day after plaster was installed but I'd have to check my photo log to confirm.