Waiting for the freezing weather

[Turbo1Ton]

I have our electrician coming out, supposedly this week, hmmm, its already Thursday, to look at our setup. We have a breaker box at the pumps and then the lines go to our main box at the house. I haven't bought a generator yet but looked at several online and waiting until our electrician can tell me options for size. One was 4500 and the other 6500. I was asking him to put a surge protector at our breaker box near the pumps, but since we have a whole house surge protector, I may squash that idea for now. We get a lot of strikes and were thinking of added protection but asking a number of folks, it may not be needed. My whole house surge protector is 12 years old but it still has a green light so I guess it still has some charges left for strikes.

Regarding your surge protection, surge protection devices wear out over time. The LED may still show green, but its useful life may be long gone. You should read the manual for your specific device to determine what the lifespan is.

You also want surge protection close to the devices you want protected. Having it on the main is a good plan, but that will not help if the surge comes in through another path, on the other side of the house from the main. For example, I had a whole house SPD installed, and had a strike nearby, and that surge took out part of my pool automation panel. Not sure if it came in through the electrical lines or through the network lines, but point being, you need more than just a single SPD for all your devices to be protected. After that, I added SPD's on my network connections, as well as right at the pool panel, and I replaced the whole house one, as it was ~10 years old, and had exceeded its useful life.

--Jeff

 

[WBW]

Regarding your surge protection, surge protection devices wear out over time. The LED may still show green, but its useful life may be long gone. You should read the manual for your specific device to determine what the lifespan is.

You also want surge protection close to the devices you want protected. Having it on the main is a good plan, but that will not help if the surge comes in through another path, on the other side of the house from the main. For example, I had a whole house SPD installed, and had a strike nearby, and that surge took out part of my pool automation panel. Not sure if it came in through the electrical lines or through the network lines, but point being, you need more than just a single SPD for all your devices to be protected. After that, I added SPD's on my network connections, as well as right at the pool panel, and I replaced the whole house one, as it was ~10 years old, and had exceeded its useful life.

--Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Your recommendations make sense. I agree a whole house surge protector lasting 12 years is a bit long from everything I’ve read. I’ll revisit this again. Thanks for your assessment and suggestions. Bill

 

[markdpratt]

Yes, you're correct and the interlock is a lot cheaper. You do have the inconvenience of turning off all the breakers and flipping on the ones you want with the generator. I wasn't looking at the inverter-type generators as they tend to be more expensive but I like the one, you picked out. Here is one mentioned on ConsumerReports, WEN 8750-Watt Gasoline Portable Inverter Generator. Interesting as they are similar costs to dual generators. Bill

We live in Lake Charles and are trying to do something similar for temporary storm power outages. Having used our gasoline-powered Honda 5kW generator during the aftermath of the 2020 hurricanes to provide essential power to the house (window AC, fridge, freezer, coffee pot, etc.) , I am planning on retrofitting the generator to also run on natural gas. For multi-day power losses, having to keep the generator filled with gasoline was a challenge not only from a gasoline shortage standpoint but also having to keep the generator gasoline tank filled.
The generator provides both 120V and 220V power and my plan is to use it to provide power to the main pool pump to keep the pool chlorinated and turned over during sustained power outages (assuming we have a pool and equipment left after future storms!)
Mark

 

[gkw4815]

Having been through a couple iterations of my generator setup, I'd recommend the following:

-In almost all cases, an interlocked generator breaker is a better choice than a transfer switch. Cheaper and allows more flexibility (ie the ability to run any circuit in your house, as long as your generator is big enough).
-Get a 50 amp inlet, not a 30 amp, even if you currently have a small generator. The incremental cost is small and it's one fewer thing to change out if you upgrade in the future.
-You may be able to run your central HVAC with a big enough generator, especially after installing a hard start kit on it ($20 part for most ACs, and quick to install). As a point of reference, my 9500w running generator will easily run our 3 ton ACs (one at a time), VS pool pump, and the rest of the house. It will not run our 5 ton AC.
-Some electronics (including VS pump drives) may be sensitive to the dirty power produced by non inverter generators. FWIW, my VS pump runs fine on mine. Inverter generators are quieter and put out clean power but are considerably more expensive and the inverter electronics are another failure point.
-Most open frame non inverter generators can be easily converted to run on natural gas with kits/parts on eBay. I did this with ours (and added a NG quick-connect on the gas line for our pool heater). Not needing to scrounge for gasoline following a hurricane or during a winter storm is a great convenience.

 

[woodyp]

Small generator and the pump plugged into it worked just fine. Don't bet on Texas having its act together after last winter. Heck.....some areas almost had rolling blackouts this summer. Also tarped the filter and hung a 100 watt bulb next to it. You can also use heat wrap tape like for mobile home lines on any exposed pipes.

 

[markdpratt]

Having been through a couple iterations of my generator setup, I'd recommend the following:

-In almost all cases, an interlocked generator breaker is a better choice than a transfer switch. Cheaper and allows more flexibility (ie the ability to run any circuit in your house, as long as your generator is big enough).
-Get a 50 amp inlet, not a 30 amp, even if you currently have a small generator. The incremental cost is small and it's one fewer thing to change out if you upgrade in the future.
-You may be able to run your central HVAC with a big enough generator, especially after installing a hard start kit on it ($20 part for most ACs, and quick to install). As a point of reference, my 9500w running generator will easily run our 3 ton ACs (one at a time), VS pool pump, and the rest of the house. It will not run our 5 ton AC.
-Some electronics (including VS pump drives) may be sensitive to the dirty power produced by non inverter generators. FWIW, my VS pump runs fine on mine. Inverter generators are quieter and put out clean power but are considerably more expensive and the inverter electronics are another failure point.
-Most open frame non inverter generators can be easily converted to run on natural gas with kits/parts on eBay. I did this with ours (and added a NG quick-connect on the gas line for our pool heater). Not needing to scrounge for gasoline following a hurricane or during a winter storm is a great convenience.

Thanks for your generator set-up recommendations. I have the Honda EM5000SXK3AN generator.(Honda EM5000S Generator | Honda Generators)
Based on your experience, do you think this generator will work to run my pool pumps on an as-required basis to keep the pool water chlorinated during a power outage? We plan on managing power requirements by only using the circuits we need and can alternate between the same.
Good point on the 50 amp vs 30 amp inlet and use of interlocked generator breaker vs. transfer switch. I also plan on converting it to natural gas and using a NG quick-connect on a natural gas line outlet on the exterior side of my garage.
Thanks.

 

[gkw4815]

That generator should have plenty of power to run your VS pump (with appropriate management of simultaneous loads). Keep in mind that you'll lose ~20% of your running watts when running on NG vs gasoline.

 

[markdpratt]

Thank you.

 

[WBW]

We live in Lake Charles and are trying to do something similar for temporary storm power outages. Having used our gasoline-powered Honda 5kW generator during the aftermath of the 2020 hurricanes to provide essential power to the house (window AC, fridge, freezer, coffee pot, etc.) , I am planning on retrofitting the generator to also run on natural gas. For multi-day power losses, having to keep the generator filled with gasoline was a challenge not only from a gasoline shortage standpoint but also having to keep the generator gasoline tank filled.
The generator provides both 120V and 220V power and my plan is to use it to provide power to the main pool pump to keep the pool chlorinated and turned over during sustained power outages (assuming we have a pool and equipment left after future storms!)
Mark

Mark, I was thinking about your thoughts on the challenge to obtain gas and totally agree. That said, I was thinking about a Dual-generator to see if that might be a possibility. I see you have a 5000W generator that I assume handles your pump and heating, fridge, and freezer with more to spare. Adequate? I'm in the early stages of this task with our electrician coming out tomorrow to install a new home surge protector and possibly add one protector to the pump breakers. Also, an interlock for the generator. I really don't want to add unnecessary $$$$ to this project but the minute something goes wrong, like a lightning strike, which we get a lot here in Central TX, or the TX grid fails again, I'll probably curse myself out for not taking preventive measures! ...Bill

 

[WBW]

Having been through a couple iterations of my generator setup, I'd recommend the following:

-In almost all cases, an interlocked generator breaker is a better choice than a transfer switch. Cheaper and allows more flexibility (ie the ability to run any circuit in your house, as long as your generator is big enough).
-Get a 50 amp inlet, not a 30 amp, even if you currently have a small generator. The incremental cost is small and it's one fewer thing to change out if you upgrade in the future.
-You may be able to run your central HVAC with a big enough generator, especially after installing a hard start kit on it ($20 part for most ACs, and quick to install). As a point of reference, my 9500w running generator will easily run our 3 ton ACs (one at a time), VS pool pump, and the rest of the house. It will not run our 5 ton AC.
-Some electronics (including VS pump drives) may be sensitive to the dirty power produced by non inverter generators. FWIW, my VS pump runs fine on mine. Inverter generators are quieter and put out clean power but are considerably more expensive and the inverter electronics are another failure point.
-Most open frame non inverter generators can be easily converted to run on natural gas with kits/parts on eBay. I did this with ours (and added a NG quick-connect on the gas line for our pool heater). Not needing to scrounge for gasoline following a hurricane or during a winter storm is a great convenience.

Thanks for the feedback and recommendations. I've got my electrician out tomorrow and will discuss with him the 50amp inlet. I wasn't planning on getting that large of a generator, 9500w, more like in the neighborhood of 6500w. But you mentioned your AC's. We have 2 heat pumps and believe both are 3 ton's. I have to double-check that. That said, I'll ask my electrician about the generator watts. I don't need the whole house, just the pool pumps, fridge, freezer, and I guess one heat pump. I guess I can switch back and forth?

 

[JJ_Tex]

I guess it is all about priorities. I have a 7,200kw generator and my pool pump is way down on the priority list.

99% of the time the pool can go several days without power, so I would be more worried about the fridges, HVAC, TVs, making sure my router had power, etc. If power happens to go out during a deep freeze, I'll spend 15 mins draining the equipment and then get back to my warm house and tv.

 

[WBW]

I guess it is all about priorities. I have a 7,200kw generator and my pool pump is way down on the priority list.

99% of the time the pool can go several days without power, so I would be more worried about the fridges, HVAC, TVs, making sure my router had power, etc. If power happens to go out during a deep freeze, I'll spend 15 mins draining the equipment and then get back to my warm house and tv.

Well thought out and certainly can't disagree. For me, new to the pool stuff, I just want to make sure I cover all my bases. Thanks for the feedback. Bill

 

[bradgray]

Honesty, I"m all new to this but they indicated one was in front of the chlorinator and the other I believe in front of the WaterCo Multi Cyclone filter. I have attached several pics of our equipment pad allowing you to see if, in fact, your suggestions fit our application. I definitely will bring up the diverters to the PB.

I've circled the areas and defined what item would be best and where given your setup. They can go anywhere in the red circle.
Based on the whole page of generator discussion, it looks like your goals are to keep both pumps running as the failsafe.

My humble suggestion is that these valves are still 100% worth the gain for ease of service.

 

[Newdude]

With regards to the NG/propane generators I cannot reccomend them enough for a seldom used device. There is nothing to foul or go bad in the tank so they can sit forever.

In the case of an extended power outage, gasoline becomes scarce quick once public panic sets in. But propane is still widely available or if you have NG you have an unlimited supply on tap.

 

[WBW]

I've circled the areas and defined what item would be best and where given your setup. They can go anywhere in the red circle.
Based on the whole page of generator discussion, it looks like your goals are to keep both pumps running as the failsafe.

My humble suggestion is that these valves are still 100% worth the gain for ease of service.

Wow, your assessment was right on where the PB had recommended. However, the PB did not mention the diverter which I will ask him about. What does the diverter do? You have the diverter along with a check valve in the cleaner pic. Are both required? I can't say enough about your quick response time and suggestions/recommendations. Appreciate it! Thanks, Bill

 

[markdpratt]

Mark, I was thinking about your thoughts on the challenge to obtain gas and totally agree. That said, I was thinking about a Dual-generator to see if that might be a possibility. I see you have a 5000W generator that I assume handles your pump and heating, fridge, and freezer with more to spare. Adequate? I'm in the early stages of this task with our electrician coming out tomorrow to install a new home surge protector and possibly add one protector to the pump breakers. Also, an interlock for the generator. I really don't want to add unnecessary $$$$ to this project but the minute something goes wrong, like a lightning strike, which we get a lot here in Central TX, or the TX grid fails again, I'll probably curse myself out for not taking preventive measures! ...Bill

Bill, we lived in Boerne for 7 years before moving to Lake Charles about 3 years ago so I understand your concerns about the Texas power grid and ice storms. For us now in Lake Charles, our biggest concern is with hurricane and tropical storm damage and resultant power outages in the August - October timeframe when the weather is normally hot. Therefore we have a small 110V window AC unit in storage that we can install in our master bedroom window that cools both the bedroom and bathroom. We have natural gas at the house and have a natural gas stove and water heaters - so those are normally operable even with power outages. We plug in our fridge and freezer and a few misc. lamps and a coffee pot and we can hunker down and survive with the generator until power is restored (we have RV’d a lot and are used to small spaces!). With our new pool recently being completed, this will be the first time we will need to manage it post storm. I talked to our electrician yesterday and he agreed the interlock is the best way to go (versus a transfer switch) and agreed the 50 amp option would be best. We already have whole-house surge protectors. That’s our power outage “survival“ plan.

 

[WBW]

Bill, we lived in Boerne for 7 years before moving to Lake Charles about 3 years ago so I understand your concerns about the Texas power grid and ice storms. For us now in Lake Charles, our biggest concern is with hurricane and tropical storm damage and resultant power outages in the August - October timeframe when the weather is normally hot. Therefore we have a small 110V window AC unit in storage that we can install in our master bedroom window that cools both the bedroom and bathroom. We have natural gas at the house and have a natural gas stove and water heaters - so those are normally operable even with power outages. We plug in our fridge and freezer and a few misc. lamps and a coffee pot and we can hunker down and survive with the generator until power is restored (we have RV’d a lot and are used to small spaces!). With our new pool recently being completed, this will be the first time we will need to manage it post storm. I talked to our electrician yesterday and he agreed the interlock is the best way to go (versus a transfer switch) and agreed the 50 amp option would be best. We already have whole-house surge protectors. That’s our power outage “survival“ plan.

Good to hear your electrician agreed on items several folks here recommended. Thanks for the feedback. Bill

 

[bradgray]

Wow, your assessment was right on where the PB had recommended. However, the PB did not mention the diverter which I will ask him about. What does the diverter do? You have the diverter along with a check valve in the cleaner pic. Are both required? I can't say enough about your quick response time and suggestions/recommendations. Appreciate it! Thanks, Bill

Yes, a diverter and check-valve combination would be needed for each pump to accomplish what I'm suggesting. I know it's tough to visualize which is why I drew on your photos.

Your pumps are what we call "flooded" because they're below the water level. You dont have to ADD a diverter (see caveat below*) but you must USE a diverter on the intake to stop that water from rushing in when the pump is off/open etc. When I say you don't have to ADD*, what I mean is that is the way your system is plumbed, without adding this additional diverter, you'd have to pull the stop pins and make your 3-way diverter capable of spinning 360°, which may confuse you of its operation and therefore put you at risk of choking your pump during normal use.

Our suggestion to most clients in your situation is to install an additional 2-way diverter that only gets used during defined service/repair/emergency periods. That way it serves one purpose and you easily know which way is open or closed.

I would show your PB the images I drew on. It should click for him at that point if he's not grasping the diverter recommendation or why a check valve won't work on the intake.

 

[WBW]

Yes, a diverter and check-valve combination would be needed for each pump to accomplish what I'm suggesting. I know it's tough to visualize which is why I drew on your photos.

Your pumps are what we call "flooded" because they're below the water level. You dont have to ADD a diverter (see caveat below*) but you must USE a diverter on the intake to stop that water from rushing in when the pump is off/open etc. When I say you don't have to ADD*, what I mean is that is the way your system is plumbed, without adding this additional diverter, you'd have to pull the stop pins and make your 3-way diverter capable of spinning 360°, which may confuse you of its operation and therefore put you at risk of choking your pump during normal use.

Our suggestion to most clients in your situation is to install an additional 2-way diverter that only gets used during defined service/repair/emergency periods. That way it serves one purpose and you easily know which way is open or closed.

I would show your PB the images I drew on. It should click for him at that point if he's not grasping the diverter recommendation or why a check valve won't work on the intake.

Thank you for the feedback and makes me completely understand the situation and needed solution. I indeed sent the pics to my PB and moving ahead with the fixes. Thanks again for your expertise and clarification. Bill

 

[WBW]

Yes, a diverter and check-valve combination would be needed for each pump to accomplish what I'm suggesting. I know it's tough to visualize which is why I drew on your photos.

Your pumps are what we call "flooded" because they're below the water level. You dont have to ADD a diverter (see caveat below*) but you must USE a diverter on the intake to stop that water from rushing in when the pump is off/open etc. When I say you don't have to ADD*, what I mean is that is the way your system is plumbed, without adding this additional diverter, you'd have to pull the stop pins and make your 3-way diverter capable of spinning 360°, which may confuse you of its operation and therefore put you at risk of choking your pump during normal use.

Our suggestion to most clients in your situation is to install an additional 2-way diverter that only gets used during defined service/repair/emergency periods. That way it serves one purpose and you easily know which way is open or closed.

I would show your PB the images I drew on. It should click for him at that point if he's not grasping the diverter recommendation or why a check valve won't work on the intake.

Bradgray, I attached new pics of the pump equipment after the PB installed diverters and check valves. It wasn't exactly how you depicted in the pics you sent me but it appears it will do the job of draining the equipment in case of electric grid issues. Agree? Bill