Waiting for the freezing weather

[bradgray]

Bradgray, I attached new pics of the pump equipment after the PB installed diverters and check valves. It wasn't exactly how you depicted in the pics you sent me but it appears it will do the job of draining the equipment in case of electric grid issues. Agree? Bill

The PB installed it completely opposite of the suggestions we gave him.

A PB should understand the fluid dynamics of the pools he builds and we even gave contextual suggestions before this work was done. Did he provide you his reasoning for doing contrary to what was asked?

I'd like to trust your PB so I'm wondering if I'm missing information here.

To confirm, your equipment is *below* your pool water level?

 

[Katodude]

I wasn't planning on getting that large of a generator, 9500w, more like in the neighborhood of 6500w.

Shop around. The incremental cost of 9500W should only be a couple of hundred $$$. I would buy the biggest generator that makes financial sense. I forget what mine is but I think around 10,000W. In Florida I am protecting against a hurricane rather than a freeze. But keeping the pool pump running is one of the items I care about since I need that for my SWG to work.

Otherwise all the advice that everyone else is giving you makes complete sense.

 

[WBW]

The PB installed it completely opposite of the suggestions we gave him.

A PB should understand the fluid dynamics of the pools he builds and we even gave contextual suggestions before this work was done. Did he provide you his reasoning for doing contrary to what was asked?

I'd like to trust your PB so I'm wondering if I'm missing information here.

To confirm, your equipment is *below* your pool water level?

The pool equipment is very much below the pool. I in fact showed the PB the suggestions with pics, unfortunately, the plumbers came out when we weren't present. No doubt a disconnect between the plumbers and the PB. I have the PB coming on Tuesday to assess the situation as he first recommended changes based on working on the equipment as well as draining the equipment if need be. Somehow, he has to make it work since he will be demonstrating the procedure to clean the filters and drain this Tuesday. So based on the updated pics provided and work done, so I understand and can talk intelligently to the PB, what will occur? Will he be able to remove both filters and will he be able to drain the pumps? Jesus, this can't be rocket science. Thanks for getting back and appreciate the feedback.

 

[WBW]

Shop around. The incremental cost of 9500W should only be a couple of hundred $$$. I would buy the biggest generator that makes financial sense. I forget what mine is but I think around 10,000W. In Florida I am protecting against a hurricane rather than a freeze. But keeping the pool pump running is one of the items I care about since I need that for my SWG to work.

Otherwise all the advice that everyone else is giving you makes complete sense.

Thanks for the feedback. Our electrician came out and installed an updated whole-house surge protector and a surge protector on our pump equipment. He mentioned that based on our house needs, pump, freezer, frig, etc, and using some portable heating (he mentioned that based on our heat pump size, we couldn't run them), we would need around 13,000W!

 

[Newdude]

No doubt a disconnect between the plumbers and the PB

That's not a communication problem, that's a plumber not taking a moment to think problem.

Sadly, when explaining similar simple theories to the 'pros' on my build, I got either blank stares, or attitude about how long they'd been pros.

 

[Newdude]

So based on the updated pics provided and work done, so I understand and can talk intelligently to the PB, what will occur?

The valve on the return side will stop the water from that leg so that half of the screw up is ok.

The check valve on the skimmer side will not serve any purpose and allow water to push through all day long if you open any part of the system past it.

You wanted one way flow leaving the pad with the check valve, and selectable on/off flow entering the pad with the diverter valve.

 

[HermanTX]

So based on the updated pics provided and work done, so I understand and can talk intelligently to the PB, what will occur?

It definitely appears the plumber heard it incorrectly from the PB or just doesn’t understand the issue.
The check valve in front of each pump will only “check” (stop) flow going from pump basket back to the pool. In some set ups this occurs when you open the lid to the pump basket and the water drains backwards to the pool making it hard to prime pump when starting up again. The check valve would keep the pump basket full. However, in your case, with the pump below the pool level, when you open the pump basket lid, you will get a flow of water coming out of the pump basket because the check valve allows flow towards the pump.
This is why you need a 2 way diverted valve in front of the pump - something that you can manually close when opening the pump basket.

You can leave the 2 way diverted valves on the return pipes of each pump as that allows you to manually close them as well. The purpose of the check valve there would be that it would “automatically” stop flow but can achieve the same via manually closing the 2 way diverted valve they already installed.

 

[WBW]

Thanks guys for the explanation. So I imagine when he comes out on Tuesday, a quick fix is to remove the check valve and put in a diverter. Correct?

 

[Newdude]

a quick fix is to remove the check valve and put in a diverter. Correct?

That'll do.

The likely reason they didn't like that option was because you can unintentionally starve your pump. But using the check valve there entirely defeats the purpose if it's below the water level.

 

[WBW]

That'll do.

The likely reason they didn't like that option was because you can unintentionally starve your pump. But using the check valve there entirely defeats the purpose if it's below the water level.

Thanks again for the clarification and SOLUTION! I WILL definitely be a whole lot more educated when I speak with the PB on Tuesday. Being unfamiliar with pools let alone pool equipment, and with water just being filled on Nov 1, I'm trying my best to get a quick learning curve on a vast number of topics. Here's the positive, my PB has always been responsive, thank God, to our concerns and as we have a warranty, I feel pretty confident some of these issues will be resolved. Thanks all for the education.

 

[bradgray]

Thanks again for the clarification and SOLUTION! I WILL definitely be a whole lot more educated when I speak with the PB on Tuesday. Being unfamiliar with pools let alone pool equipment, and with water just being filled on Nov 1, I'm trying my best to get a quick learning curve on a vast number of topics. Here's the positive, my PB has always been responsive, thank God, to our concerns and as we have a warranty, I feel pretty confident some of these issues will be resolved. Thanks all for the education.

I'm sorry you're in this situation. This is the very reason I took the time to draw it out for your PB. Such an easy issue to have avoided if they'd paid attention.

Don't settle for a coupling in your repair. Make the PB give you a new segment of pipe after the properly installed diverter and a new praher union on your pump intake.

 

[WBW]

I'm sorry you're in this situation. This is the very reason I took the time to draw it out for your PB. Such an easy issue to have avoided if they'd paid attention.

Don't settle for a coupling in your repair. Make the PB give you a new segment of pipe after the properly installed diverter and a new praher union on your pump intake.

Will do! Thanks again for your help.

 

[bradgray]

Will do! Thanks again for your help.

I'm looking at the photos again, and there isn't much PVC to weld a new diverter to because of how close they installed the check valve, even if they slammed it against the 3-way diverter already there.

It may be better if the PB just plumbs two 2-ways on each pump on the vertical rise, and then uses a standard PVC Tee in place of the 3 way. Then you can close the flow using those. This is how we usually plumb pools in our area anyway. But this is the most expensive update so he'll likely not love it.

Or, you can remove the pins and make the 3-way you already have, spin 360° and close it this way, making no changes to the system. I'll repeat the gentle warning though that It would just require more awareness from you in terms of how the diverters are working internally and where it's located during use. You really don't want to choke the pump by mistake.

Let me know if a diagram would help with those suggestions!

 

[bradgray]

WBW, hold off on the hack and glue with the PB for a moment; Herman had a great suggestion. We're going to confirm if the body on the Pentair check-valve and diverter are the same; if so, the internal components can simply be swapped and make the solution unbelievably simple.

 

[WBW]

I'm looking at the photos again, and there isn't much PVC to weld a new diverter to because of how close they installed the check valve, even if they slammed it against the 3-way diverter already there.

It may be better if the PB just plumbs two 2-ways on each pump on the vertical rise, and then uses a standard PVC Tee in place of the 3 way. Then you can close the flow using those. This is how we usually plumb pools in our area anyway. But this is the most expensive update so he'll likely not love it.

Or, you can remove the pins and make the 3-way you already have, spin 360° and close it this way, making no changes to the system. I'll repeat the gentle warning though that It would just require more awareness from you in terms of how the diverters are working internally and where it's located during use. You really don't want to choke the pump by mistake.

Let me know if a diagram would help with those suggestions!

I'll bring up all your suggestions, as well as others, to the PB tomorrow morning when he arrives. Can't say enough about the time you and others have devoted to my issue. Appreciate it immensely. Being mechanical is not my skill set, a corporate guy in the past, but with the feedback, I'm getting it. We had some difficulty because the plumbers didn't speak the language all that well. Hence the possibility of many disconnects. In any event, always a solution to a problem. Again, thanks! Bill

 

[bradgray]

WBW, I have confirmed we can swap the internal components between the check-valve and the diverter. I chatted with my rep and also tried it myself. The valve body is exactly the same.

Don't let your PB cut or glue anything! Huge thanks to Herman for that suggestion. That'll save you and your PB a bundle of hassle.

Herman, should this be added to the 'Valves - Further Reading" sticky? This may not be frequently needed info but helpful nonetheless now that we've solidly confirmed the theory.

 

[WBW]

WBW, I have confirmed we can swap the internal components between the check-valve and the diverter. I chatted with my rep and also tried it myself. The valve body is exactly the same.

Don't let your PB cut or glue anything! Huge thanks to Herman for that suggestion. That'll save you and you're PB a bundle of hassle.

Herman, should this be added to the 'Valves - Further Reading" sticky? This may not be frequently needed info but helpful nonetheless now that we've solidly confirmed the theory.

Bradgray, so if I understand you correctly, the pics I provided and how the plumber set it up are good to go? Nothing to change out?

 

[Newdude]

Nothing to change out?

Only the guts of the pieces, effectively swapping them without any cutting or gluing.

 

[HermanTX]

Bradgray, so if I understand you correctly, the pics I provided and how the plumber set it up are good to go? Nothing to change out?

The body of the diverted valve and check valve are the same - so the PB should be able to unscrew the top of each and swap them out.
So that is the recommendation to the PB - swap out the internal parts between the check valve and the diverter valve.
this way you end up with a diverted valve before each of the pumps

 

[ajw22]

A diverter from the same manufacturer as the check valve should be used.

You have a Pentair 3 way diverter in front of the CV by the pump.

If that CV is a Pentair then you need to get a Pentair 2-way diverter, if Jandy then a Jandy 2-way diverter.