VSP keeps tripping breakers

[tstex]

Why not replace the pump?

If you want to rack your brains on the details of stray inductance and capacitance in transformer analysis, see here - http://coefs.uncc.edu/mnoras/files/2013/03/Transformer-and-Inductor-Design-Handbook_Chapter_17.pdf

Your problems could simply be a poorly constructed motor, possibly just a one-off bad motor where there's some defect in the way the motor was built giving it too much stray capacitance in the windings. I believe these VSPs all have multiple windings in them that get turned on by the power supply at different RPMs along with the usual variable-frequency power applied. This way, the most efficient combination of drive frequency and motor windings can be utilized. The problem is, with multiple windings comes the possibility of stray inductance and capacitance across the different windings as well as within the windings themselves. When the VFD switches on and off (it's just a square-wave drive voltage), the leading and trailing edges of the square-wave can have significant voltage/current spikes show up as the stray parasitics charge & discharge. Unless a great deal of care is taken in how the coils are wound (special winging patterns) and how the wire sizes and insulation is specified, one can build up a large degree of stray parasitics.

So, you may have gotten the one bad luck motor out of the factory that probably passed the limited quality control measures but fails in the field. I'd take your PB up on the offer of a complete pump replacement as you should not have to futz around with your pool pump like this. It's just unacceptable and you have more than proven that you have a real problem and that you have exhausted all reasonable on-site fixes.

Thanks Matt.

I'm not sure how far deep you read into the thread, but the originally installed pump [Oct 2014] was replaced somewhere in the late Jan 2015 - early March 2015 timeframe. When the original breakers were flipping like mad, a tech came out and wanted to examine the pumps wiring. The wiring cover on the pump has a main screw you tighten to secure the cover. Well, when he went to loosen it, the cover just came off, and there was heavy oxidation of all the wiring/even some water in it, so the whole pump was replaced...7-9 months later, the breakers flipped and it turned out to be a locked-up motor, so the motor was replaced on the replacement pump...since then, the controller on this same pump has been replaced twice, and the breakers have flipped twice since the last controller was replaced [Dec 15-20[.

A master electrician said [from info provided, no onsite testing or examination] that w all those pump and parts replaced, he believed it to possibly be the wiring btw pump & breaker or something on the buss board, or you have just received one crappy pump and pump part after another...

Since the breakers that trip [two diff ones of the same make.model (Sq-D, DP 20amp GFCI breakers)] seem to follow where the pump is placed on it, the pump seems to be the problem. But constant in the equation is the wiring [never been checked]. So, w/ that being said, and many of the other fine people that have posted on here, I have come to this potential resolution w one question:

1. Replace the entire pump as manufacturer has suggested
2. Examine and or replace wiring btw pump and breaker/panel
3. Question, do I ask to replace the breakers that have been flipping? When I want in to test the torque of the wires tighten into the breaker, the screws were tight, but there seemed to be some play or looseness of the what the screws were tightening onto w.in the 20amp breaker
4. Increase the speed/RPM's of Spd2 from 1390RPMS to 1500-1600 where the breaker always seems to flip, which it has done in the last 5-6 trips over last 5-6 weeks [all during even amp draw runtime, never on start-up or during an RPM realtime increase or decrease].

At this point, I really do not care what the actual fix is if it 1 or all 4 of the above, but I just need to let you guys focus on other posts bc I know this is prob starting to flip a bunch of our mental breakers...at least it is for me.

Again, I cannot thank all of you enough for your continued feedback and help - I hope I can soon help others too - tstex

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I did not read the original thread. I see you've been through a lot with the pump. Definitely sounds like some bad combination of pump and wiring putting you right on the edge of what the breaker can handle. I am fortunate in that my pool equipment was installed before the NEC2014 code revision and so in my locality (Pima county, not the city of Tucson), GFCI breakers were not required on pumps directly wired to the automation panel. I have thought about updating the panel myself with Pentair GFCI breakers just to be "up to code" but I have read enough of these horror stories to be very wary of doing that. My pump is properly wired, bonded and grounded so I'm not concerned in the least about safety. Not to mention the fact that I think most homes are "over-protected" nowadays with all of the required GFI/AFI breakers and receptacles. The previous guy that owned my home for some reason installed GFI outlets all over the place such that there are multiple GFIs on the same line run....makes finding the pop'ed GFI really annoying. I have tried to replace the extra ones with regular receptacles when I find them but it seems like a never-ending task.

Keep your post updated with what you find works or doesn't work as that will be the most helpful. Sorry you have to go through this....good luck.

 

[bk406]

My pump is properly wired, bonded and grounded so I'm not concerned in the least about safety. Not to mention the fact that I think most homes are "over-protected" nowadays with all of the required GFI/AFI breakers and receptacles. .

^^^^ This x100

 

[JamesW]

If you're going to replace the wiring, I would recommend going with VFD rated cable. I don't know how much good it might do, but it might make a difference.

Perhaps invest in some sort of whole house surge protection or power conditioning equipment.

Also, I suspect that you probably have some sort of stray current/voltage in the area creating issues. You have so many issues that I think that there has to be something at your property that is not right. Tracking that kind of thing can be very difficult.

Are there any power lines or big power equipment nearby?

If you can post pictures of everything, there might be something that stands out to someone.

I would also recommend contacting the motor manufacturer. Hayward makes the pump. They don't make the motor. This is really a motor issue. I think that EchoStar uses Century motors.

The motor makers are really the ones who should have the expertise in these issues. They should be able to provide some answers.

 

[tstex]

If you're going to replace the wiring, I would recommend going with VFD rated cable. I don't know how much good it might do, but it might make a difference.

Perhaps invest in some sort of whole house surge protection or power conditioning equipment.

Also, I suspect that you probably have some sort of stray current/voltage in the area creating issues. You have so many issues that I think that there has to be something at your property that is not right. Tracking that kind of thing can be very difficult.

Are there any power lines or big power equipment nearby?

If you can post pictures of everything, there might be something that stands out to someone.

I checked w all types of VFD cable companies and no residential applications re cables...so I could not find an option here

I will look into surge protection, but here has not been anything that stands out here.

I have two pool installs on both side of me...all of us are on the same electrical leg of the community grid, and they have not experienced anything like this either...a guy on the end of the street has had a Hayward install since 2008..it's a 1 or 2 speed pump...has just replaced the motor twice now, and never had the breaker flip except when the motor failed [once ever 4.5 yrs].

No heavy equipment on or near the line. we have (two) 200amp service panels in our garage w plenty of extra slots open...nothing inside there has ever flipped except during Hurricane Ike in 2008- an attic ventilator fan blew off, water some rain/water leaked in via the open hole and flipped a SP 15amp breaker that serviced some lights in the foyer...other then that, nothing....

let me know what pictures you want me to take and I will do so this afternoon - thanks again

 

[Pool Clown]

1. Replace the entire pump as manufacturer has suggested

This may be a good idea. You should be willing to do what the manufacturer wants to do to remedy a problem... to a point that is. Because if you go against the manufacturers' recommendation while under warranty, you might find yourself in the middle of the ocean by yourself, if you know what i mean. Or take it a step further and request another manufacturer. That might put this whole thing to bed if the problem stops.

2. Examine and or replace wiring btw pump and breaker/panel

I mentioned checking the electrical service earlier, and didn't get a response if it had been addressed or not. Seems the motor/drive has been replaced more or less twice (in one way or another), and is still doing this. Maybe it isn't the motor?

3. Question, do I ask to replace the breakers that have been flipping? When I want in to test the torque of the wires tighten into the breaker, the screws were tight, but there seemed to be some play or looseness of the what the screws were tightening onto w.in the 20 amp breaker

If you can get the electrician to replace them at no charge? sure. I mean at this point, try anything you haven't yet.

4. Increase the speed/RPM's of Spd2 from 1390 RPMS to 1500-1600 where the breaker always seems to flip, which is had done in the last 5-6 trips over last 5-6 weeks [all during even amp draw runtime, never on start-up or during an RPM real-time increase or decrease].

You need to ask yourself, are you willing to live with a "mostly" variable speed pump if that works.
You were sold a variable speed pump. You should be able to run it at any speed without a problem, reasonable yes?

While this is your aggravation, I see it as the PBs' or Manufacturers' Problem (to remedy). If you decide to remain with this manufacturer, i would document as much as you can with them about this and any other problem. Then when the warranty runs out and there are still issues, there is a paper trail of this problem and you may have more recourse.

 

[JamesW]

You can buy vfd cable online. I would imagine that it's available locally as well. If you're using an electrician, they can certainly get it.

Will it help? I really don't know. However, since we really don't know what is causing the issues, it seems logical to do anything that might help (within limits).

If you can post an overview of the equipment and the electrical panel with the breakers exposed, that might show something

Who is the motor manufacturer?

How far from the gfci breaker to the pump?

 

[tstex]

pool clown,

yes, following the manufacturer's recommendation under warranty is pretty imperative [Hayward]

On "electrical service" sorry, I must have missed that w all the posts...Our main electrical service into house is fine, and the service from 1 of the (2) 200amp electrical service panels to the pool panel is fine [never a tripped 70amp from house to panel[. I will have their tech test the wiring/conductors from breaker to pool pump

the manufacturer has agreed to replace the whole VSP and the breaker that services the pump, but not the wiring...

Yes, I agree that the VSP should be operable on any RPM's. I just want to determine if that has any bearing on the performance...pls also see pics below

 

[tstex]

pool clown,

yes, following the manufacturer's recommendation under warranty is pretty imperative [Hayward]

On "electrical service" sorry, I must have missed that w all the posts...Our main electrical service into house is fine, and the service from 1 of the (2) 200amp electrical service panels to the pool panel is fine [never a tripped 70amp from house to panel[. I will have their tech test the wiring/conductors from breaker to pool pump

the manufacturer has agreed to replace the whole VSP and the breaker that services the pump, but not the wiring...

Yes, I agree that the VSP should be operable on any RPM's. I just want to determine if that has any bearing on the performance...pls also see pics below

James,

Here is a pic of the equip pad w all and one of the pool panel w the two pumps..The VSP is on the left and SUper II pump on right. The distance in feet of the VSP flex wiring conduit is no more than 5 ft. Hayward is the pump manufacturer: EcoStar VSP3400

Since rain is imminent, I will post the inside of the panel when time permits...let me know if you see anything "off the wall" via these pics..thanks, tstex

 

[JamesW]

One thing that stands out is the number of conduits running parallel and in close proximity to each other. That might be causing induced currents in nearby wires, especially if the wires are not shielded.

Based on further research, I would suggest that the vfd cable be used and that it be separated as much as possible from paralleling other wires or conduits in close proximity.

I have seen references regarding thhn wire as being particularly unsuitable for vfd applications. If you have that wire type, I would recommend replacing it. The wire type will be printed on the wires.

On thing that might help is to be able to record what is on and off or turning on or off at the time of the trip.

You would need data loggers.

Is all of the equipment properly bonded and grounded, including the automation box?

Can you post a picture of the motor label?

 

[tstex]

One thing that stands out is the number of conduits running parallel and in close proximity to each other. That might be causing induced currents in nearby wires, especially if the wires are not shielded. -

I have no clue on this one...how does the conduit for your VSP look, what type of wiring? Note, there are only 3 solid copper coated wires in the 3/4" grey flex conduit: 2 blks; 1 green. That seems to be pretty consistent w each device wired into the panel. Could 2 12ga hots and 1 green grd cause or emit measurable interference in a 3/4" flex line? this is not my area of expertise.

Based on further research, I would suggest that the vfd cable be used and that it be separated as much as possible from paralleling other wires or conduits in close proximity.

Do you have a make and model suggestion for the vfd wiring that you recommend?

I have seen references regarding thhn wire as being particularly unsuitable for vfd applications. If you have that wire type, I would recommend replacing it. The wire type will be printed on the wires.

The wiring/conductors btw the pump and breaker are all insulated/solid copper 12ga wires...nothing braided at all...

On thing that might help is to be able to record what is on and off or turning on or off at the time of the trip. You would need data loggers.

If you are referring to the pool equipment, nothing else is programmed to turn-on when the pool pump is running. I have to manually initiate


Is all of the equipment properly bonded and grounded, including the automation box? - yes, there is plenty evidence of solid copper wiring from all equipment, to panel and from panel into ground. When under construction, there were plenty of bare copper wiring [12 ga or better] that was tied to the rebar coming out of the gunite at the top of the pool.

Can you post a picture of the motor label?

- I will take a pic of the motor label in the am...here's an Op's manual w info that might on the electronics and all...
https://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/Manual405.pdf

See responses above - thanks James

 

[JamesW]

I might have misunderstood the vfd cable use. I think that it is for running power from the drive to the motor.

In this case, the drive is connected directly to the motor.

I don't know how much of an issue the parallel wiring is. I think that I would want to separate and/or shield the wiring to reduce induced currents.

Note that I don't have any special expertise in this area. I am just trying to help figure it out.

Ideally, we would need an electrical engineer that specializes in these types of things.

In the absence of that, we will do the best that we can.

 

[gwegan]

In post 20 are you saying that the green ground wire (equipment ground) shares the same buss bar in the subpanel with the neutrals from the GFCI? Can we get a picture of the inside of the sub panel?

 

[JamesW]

In some posts, you're indicating that a regular breaker is tripping and not a gfci in some cases. That could indicate that you might have over current and ground fault issues happening.

I think that it would be helpful if you could use a power monitor that logged volts and amps so that you could see what's going on when a trip happens.