VSP keeps tripping breakers

[tstex]

Hello to all,

History of system:

Equipment installed Oct 2014, Equipment activated Jan 2015, the Hayward 3 HP EcoStar VSP pump tripped the breakers on and off for 3-5 weeks. Went from 3 slots of breakers to all 6 slots of breakers in panel. Each pump [VSP and Super II scupper pump [were ea on their own breaker. And, we went from the Siemens QF220 GFCI breakers to the equivalent SQ-D type breakers. Not only were all the breakers changed out, but Hayward also installed a new identical pump too.

All operated ok for 12-14 months [June 2016], then the breaker w the VSP tripped. The motor on the 2nd VSP was bad and was replaced. In early Dec 2106, 2 weeks ago, the breaker on the VSP tripped. Hayward Rep came out and moved the VSP to another breaker, and the Heater and Blower were moved to the breaker than just tripped. Just this morning, the breaker that the VSP was moved to, now tripped. The breaker that tripped 2 weeks ago now w the Heater and Blower, has not tripped. The Hayward Rep is coming back out tomorrow or Friday.

I wanted to know is this typical of VSP and 220 GFCI double poled breakers, or is something going on here? I am very concerned bc all has been covered under warranty, but after 3 yrs, if this continues, this will be very costly. So, I looking for immediate possible solutions. And, what do I need to prepare for or say to Hayward in the future?

The Hayward Rep/tech has been great, so as the Hayward local Mgr. They always respond, but the future concerns me. We’ve also had 2 pool LED lights replaced and on Spa LED light replaced too.

I really would appreciate any and all valid insight and technical support.

********** UPDATE**********

The Hayward tech came out Thursday afternoon and replaced the Drive on the 3400VSP for the second time. well, the breaker that feeds the VSP tripped again today. This is the main breaker bar, not the GFCI. It tripped during the time pump was operating at 1380RPMs, which mean it was drawing low amps and not in a start-up mode...the inside remote was flashing "CHECK SYSTEM" w the pump/filter icon lit, but no water flowing in the pool, and as noted, the breaker was tripped.

I am all ears if anyone has any suggestions on what to do ??

Regards, tstex

 

[gwegan]

Do they trip while running and won't restart? Do they trip at startup? Is it a voltage imbalance or a overload that is tripping the breakers?

What does the Hayward rep says is the problem?

Have you tried Pentair (Siemens) Breakers ?

 

[tstex]

Thanks Gw - see below

Do they trip while running and won't restart? Do they trip at startup?

The pump is programmed to run 4 diff times: 2 on high speed, 2 on low speed. From 6am-8am, high speed 2850 RPM and it runs the full 2 hrs, then is goes to low speed, 8am-noon at 1320 RPM. It changes from high to low ok, then I see it running it low speed, but seems to trip during the low-speed operating time btw 8-noon, but doesn't finish before noon and the breaker trips...what I see is a semi-wet spillway, no water running and the breaker tripped...this is what has happened the last 2-3 times on both breakers - does this help?

Is it a voltage imbalance or a overload that is tripping the breakers?

everything was running fine for 12-14 mo's, so I would not say a voltage imbalance and noting else running to over load it...thoughts ?

What does the Hayward rep says is the problem?

He as not been out to look at it again this time, but just switched the pump breakers... I am leaning to a bad motor again or something that works btw the motor and controlling that is shorting out...thoughts again ?

Have you tried Pentair (Siemens) Breakers ?

the original breakers were the Siemens QF200 DP GFCI 220 Breakers...not sure if Pentair, but I think straight Siemens...this has to be the same thing bc Pentair does not make their own breakers, yes?

 

[Jimrahbe]

ts,

Are you sure that the VSP circuit breaker only feeds the VS pump? I'm asking because it is not unusual for installers to jumper relay input power to other circuits. The two hots coming off the VSP circuit breaker should go directly to the pump without going to any relays.

I read somewhere that Pentair had a problem with random GFCI trips and to solve this they sell their 220 volt CB, P/N PA220GF. I have no idea if it is identical to the Siemens QF220 or not. I do know that I have three Intelliflo pumps.. two using Siemens breakers and one using the Pentair breaker and I have never had a CB trip on any of them.

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[tstex]

Thanks Jim - I will check on the wiring, but I know the punps are on their own breaker.

A forum question of "are there any differences btw the Siemens and Pentair CB 220 GCFI breaker" would be a good question.

Regarding the intelliflo pumps, did any of them trip on other breakers? how long have the 2 pumps been running that have never tripped w the Pentair CB breakers? are any of your pumps VSpeed pumps?

Thank you Jim

 

[Jimrahbe]

Thanks Jim - I will check on the wiring, but I know the punps are on their own breaker.

A forum question of "are there any differences btw the Siemens and Pentair CB 220 GCFI breaker" would be a good question.

Regarding the intelliflo pumps, did any of them trip on other breakers? how long have the 2 pumps been running that have never tripped w the Pentair CB breakers? are any of your pumps VSpeed pumps?

Thank you Jim

The three pumps, all VS IntelliFlos, have never tripped.. One has been running 24/7 for about three years and the other two 24/7 for about 2 years. I guess my point was that, for me anyway, the specific breakers seem to make no difference. But, I also made sure that nothing but the pump is connected to the pump's CB.

Jim R.

 

[gwegan]

I'm going to agree with Jim here I would look closely at how this is wired. I would also like to know how it is tripping. Does it come back on after a reset? Is the breaker tripping or the GFCI?

 

[tstex]

Thanks for the clarification Jim. I will ask the Hayward Tech that is coming today to examine the wiring per your orig quote. If you or gw have any specific questions, pls post them and I will either ask the tech if I am here or text him prior to his arrival for an answer when he leaves.

gw, it is actual breaker that is tripping, meaning the handle goes to the center or near center. It is not like a conventional GFCI outlet where the button trips in the center of the plug or outlet, or breaker in this instance, but the actual breaker is tripping. I've taken cell pic's everytime and texted to Hayward tech & Hayward Mgr...

Thanks again gentlemen - tstex

 

[tstex]

The tech came by and I asked what was done and I received a "I switched out the drive, hopefully that fixes it".

I sent a reply to see when he can talk. My questions are: 1. why was this part replaced? 2. what data or information led to this conclusion? 3. others I should ask?

Thanks, tstex

 

[tstex]

********** UPDATE**********

The Hayward tech came out Thursday afternoon and replaced the Drive on the 3400VSP for the second time. well, the breaker that feeds the VSP tripped again today. This is the main breaker bar, not the GFCI. It tripped during the time pump was operating at 1380RPMs, which mean it was drawing low amps and not in a start-up mode...the inside remote was flashing "CHECK SYSTEM" w the pump/filter icon lit, but no water flowing in the pool, and as noted, the breaker was tripped.

I am all ears if anyone has any suggestions on what to do ??

Regards, tstex

 

[tstex]

an electrical question re panel and pump

Been having problems w the EcoStar 3400 VSP tripping the Sq-D 220V DP GFCI Breaker...

It tripped the breaker 2 times 3 weeks ago, so the Hayward tech moved the VS pump to another identical breaker spec'ed for the Hayward Pump, and put the heater and blower on the breaker that just flipped. By tripping, I mean the entire breaker, not the GFCI button.

Less than a week later, the breaker that the VSP was moved to tripped. The breaker that the heater and blower is now on, and I used the spa, has not tripped at all.

The Hayward tech came out and replaced the drive on the VSP as a solution. That was this Friday. Saturday, the breaker that the pump still resides on tripped again. As before, this is the breaker handle flipping, not the white GFCI button on the breaker.

To add to this, here are some certainties:

* The breaker is flipping while running on a low-speed/low RPM of 1380RPM. The VSP comes on at 6am, runs at from 6am-8am @ 2950RPM, then 8am-2pm runs at 1380RPM. Somewhere around 11am-1pm the breaker will trip. No other equipment at the time of the trips were running [ie scupper pump, lights, etc].

One thing that happened during this timeframe that has never happened before is during the second pump period of 1380RPM, I was walking by the digital remote in the kitchen and noticed that the following ICONS were lit-up: POOL, FILTER [all normal as expected] but also lit were HEATER, LIGHTS, AUX 6. I have never hit the AUX button bc there is nothing on it. I surely did not engage the heater or the lights. I turned-off everything from inside and went to the pad and sure enough, the heater was very hot, so it was engaged, not just the icon. How does that happen? Also, Hayward has a feature that prevents the heater from coming on if the pump has low RPM/speed, which is what the pump was operating. In 2 yrs, I have never ran the heater to heat the pool, only the spa.

So, I am baffled. And I will propose this if the forum allows it. Anyone that definitively knows what to do to fix this, I will send a $100 gift certificate to wherever you want, or to your charity of choice. I've been at this for almost 2 yrs and it's become most aggravating. Hayward is supposed to come out w the tech Q1 2017.

Thanks and Merry Christmas to all, tstex

 

[proavia]

Re: an electrical question re panel and pump

I don't purport to know how to fix the issue...... but, I think I would first remove the automation from the equation. I'd rewire the pump to run standalone - totally removing the PS8 from the equation. Making sure only the VSP3400 is wired through it's own separate breaker- and see if the breaker still pops. This also means removing any interconnect between the pump and PS8. This should prove whether it's strictly a pump issue.

As for your offer, maybe you'd consider donating to TFP. You'd get additional benefits from your donation as well. Just a thought.

 

[tstex]

Thanks Gene.

Since I am still under Hayward Warranty, I am not sure what I can and cannot do, but I will surely submit the suggestions.

Just looking to see if anyone has a "Ah Ha" moment and something jumps out at them bc they have seen this previously.

One other question. I read this on some other thread here when I did a forum search for this problem. Regarding the control panel and the bus-board, should each [green] ground wire be connected to their own separate lug? I noticed that some lugs had 3 [green] ground wires tied into it. I am not sure if that causes any issues or not, but I thought I would ask.

And yes, I would surely make another donation to the forum or upgrade my membership...thanks again, tstex

 

[proavia]

My thought is that they just keep throwing new parts at it and the issue continues. Isolating the motor and seeing if the issue stops or continues sounds like the next step to me. I agree that passing the suggestion on may be your best course of action. When exactly does the warranty expire? If it's not the motor/CB issue they've been chasing, what are they going to due after the warranty runs out? Hopefully, it won't be throwing their hands up and saying your automation system is bad - but you're out of warranty and it's going to be $$$$ to fix it.

You may also wish to contact one of the Hayward reps here on the site - actually kind of surprised they haven't jumped in yet.

I can't answer your question about the ground wires. I have seen 2 under one lug before - but I don't know the exact code or if having 3 under one lug could cause any issues. One of the electrical gurus will probably be along shortly to respond.

 

[Jimrahbe]

ts,

I realize that it trips the entire breaker and not just the GCFI, but it does not appear to me that you have ever answered the initial question about whether the VS pump is the only item attached to the circuit breaker...

Have you, personally, opened the panel and followed the wires going from the Pump's Circuit breaker to ensure that the wires go directly to the pump and not to any other place, relay, or connection?

I see you mentioned that the pump had been switched to "another" breaker, but it is much more likely that they just swapped breakers rather than swapped any wiring.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[gwegan]

1 can you reset the breaker and it runs?

2 switch the breaker to a non GFCI breaker does it still trip? I would bet no.

3 I would strongly suggest handing a electrician come look at the wiring from the service entrance all the way to the pump. Both hot, neutral and ground. As Jim suggests run each down. Check each connection to make sure it's tight and correct.

 

[tstex]

ts,

I realize that it trips the entire breaker and not just the GCFI, but it does not appear to me that you have ever answered the initial question about whether the VS pump is the only item attached to the circuit breaker...

Have you, personally, opened the panel and followed the wires going from the Pump's Circuit breaker to ensure that the wires go directly to the pump and not to any other place, relay, or connection?

I see you mentioned that the pump had been switched to "another" breaker, but it is much more likely that they just swapped breakers rather than swapped any wiring.

Thanks,

Jim R.

QUOTE=Jimrahbe;1160721] Pls see below

I realize that it trips the entire breaker and not just the GCFI, but it does not appear to me that you have ever answered the initial question about whether the VS pump is the only item attached to the circuit breaker...

Sorry Jim, but I thought I did answer the question re VSP and circuit breaker, but yes, both the VSP and Super II pump are the only two items that have their own 20amp GFCI breaker and no other device. Nothing else is on those breakers except two blk wires that make them 220. Also, from the bottom of the service box, you can see the two black wires and grd that go into the 3/4" flex conduit, and then the flex conduit makes a homerun directly to the side of the VSP...no relays and anything inbetw...so they are homerun wired from pump directly to the breaker. Does this help clarify? If not, then I am not understanding your question.

Yesterday, the CIO of a Data Center operations Center, he and I opened the cover to the panel and traced the wires from the VSP breaker, into the conduit, then traced that conduit directly to the VSP.

Next, he tech told me when he made the switch from the original single 20AMP GFI breaker that was flipped by the VSP, undid the two VSP wires from the bottom 20AMP breaker, then took the hot's off the top breaker from the heater and blower, and moved the VSP 2 wires to the top breaker, and then the heater and blower to the bottom breaker. THe VSP has tripped this top breaker now twice, once w the old drive, and now w the new drive that was installed on the VSP Friday.
Have you, personally, opened the panel and followed the wires going from the Pump's Circuit breaker to ensure that the wires go directly to the pump and not to any other place, relay, or connection?

Yes, all homeruns direct from breaker to VSP, nothing else on the breaker except the pump.

I see you mentioned that the pump had been switched to "another" breaker, but it is much more likely that they just swapped breakers rather than swapped any wiring. Pls see above

Thanks,

Jim R.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jimrahbe]

ts,

Thanks for the update.. So my gut says, if the pump is connected directly to the circuit breaker, as it appears it is, then then only thing that can cause the breaker to pop is the pump. It does not matter what the control system does, it can't cause the CB to pop.

On second thought.. a GFCI breaker has a curly white wire that gets connected to the neutral buss... If the neutral buss connection was intermittent either at the connection inside the automation system or at the main house panel it might cause this random failure and might be the reason for your weird automation lights you were also having. I'd ensure that the lugs on either end of the neutral wire have not become loose over time... I'd check both of the hot leads, the neutral, and the ground connections...

You can give my $100 bucks to TSP... :gone:

Jim R.

 

[tstex]

1 can you reset the breaker and it runs?

2 switch the breaker to a non GFCI breaker does it still trip? I would bet no.

3 I would strongly suggest handing a electrician come look at the wiring from the service entrance all the way to the pump. Both hot, neutral and ground. As Jim suggests run each down. Check each connection to make sure it's tight and correct.

1. if the breaker trips, yes, I can reset it and then engage the VSP

2. All the breakers that have been on this panel have been GFCI's, both Siemens and now Sq D...if they choose to install no GFCI, I think that is a code violation for our County/City.

3. I agree that all the wires from the VSP need to be pulled from the flex conduit and checked for nicks, abrasions or any removal of insulation that could be causing issues. The only question I would have is how long and under what conditions does it take for the wires to cause an issue? It ran fine for 6 months w no tripping, so would the wires invoke problems more intermittently. Below is a summary of the electrical issues in order w the dates the best I can remember:

A. During Jan 2015 to early March 2015 breakers flipped consistently, sometimes 2 breakers at a time [Seimens QF220P DP GFCI breakers were installed]
- More 20AMP breakers were added to isolate pumps, still they tripped
- Switched from Seimens to Sq-D
- Went from 2 GFCI 20AMps & 1 15amp GFCI breakers to 4 GFCI 20amp breakers and 2 15amp GCFI breakers
- The entire EcoStar 3400VSP was changed out, but the VSP breaker still tripped
- Something on the bus-board was changed out/replaced, then we got the first week of no breakers tripping in one solid week.
B. Went 8-9 months w ZERO issues, then the VSP breaker flipped.
- I reset the breaker, turned on pump/FILTER on. but pump would not start.
-Hayward tech came and the motor on pump was bad and replaced...VSP then operated
C. Went another 5-6 months and the VSP breaker tripped again...
-reset breaker and pump would not start
- the drive was bad and replaced, VSP then worked
D. Breaker on VSP tripped again.
-Tech came out and moved VSP to another breaker; heater and blower moved to previously tripped VSP breaker
-VSP tripped this breaker
-Tech came out and replaced the drive on VSP again this thur Dec 15
-Saturday the VSP tripped the breaker again...Dec 17
-I reset breaker and it has operated w no trips [today is sunday, Dec 18]

Somewhere in the above events in the first 3-6 months, one of the 2 LED Color logic lights in pool went bad, it was replaced
-about 2-3 months later, the same light went bad and was replaced again
-about 1-2 months later, the LED light in the Spa was replaced, for about a year now, all LED lights have operated, but:
-They have been out of sync 3-4 times..2 of the 4 they reset and re-synced with in 2-4 tries
-The last 2 times, including the Friday the drive was replaced, it took over 20 times Friday night and 15-20 times early Sat am and the pool and spa Hayward color-logic lights finally re-synced.

As a note, the DP-70AMP breaker inside one of our two 200AMP house service panels in the garage, it has never tripped one time since the date of putting water into the pool in Jan 30 2015...no breaker in either of the 2 200AMP services in garage has ever tripped except during Hurricane Ike in Sept 2008...

So, I hope the Hayward Rep does see this and can tell me why I am experiencing horrendous performance of their products. Both of my neighbors on each side of me have Pentair installs, receive the same electricity off the same leg of the grid as I do, and have only replaced on pump in 5 yrs...one install in 2007, the other in 2010...

Thanks and sorry for the long post...I wish I could sell the pool and equipment today...I'd take a 20K loss just to remove the headaches...but I'd still come back here to bother you guys

 

[tstex]

ts,

Thanks for the update.. So my gut says, if the pump is connected directly to the circuit breaker, as it appears it is, then then only thing that can cause the breaker to pop is the pump. It does not matter what the control system does, it can't cause the CB to pop.

On second thought.. a GFCI breaker has a curly white wire that gets connected to the neutral buss... If the neutral buss connection was intermittent either at the connection inside the automation system or at the main house panel it might cause this random failure and might be the reason for your weird automation lights you were also having. I'd ensure that the lugs on either end of the neutral wire have not become loose over time... I'd check both of the hot leads, the neutral, and the ground connections...

You can give my $100 bucks to TSP... :gone:

Jim R.

You are welcome Jim - I appreciate your feedback.

When the breaker again failed yesterday, [Sat Dec 17], my neighbor down the street that is electrical savvy and was consulting w his on-staff Master Electrician, he said to check the wires/conductors from the breaker to the VSP.

First, I turned off the 70amp breaker to the pool service panel. It was at this time that we checked all the breakers and wiring. we also checked the torque on all the screws on the breakers and neutral bus-board/lugs. The green wire for the VSP was traced to the bus-board lug and there were 2 greens in the same lug...we moved the green from the VSP into another vacant neutral lug...we checked that everything was tight...all checked...then we put back the panel cover, tightened and then reset breaker, turned on the 70AMP breaker and turned-on the FILTER PUMP and it ran...We are in a holding pattern right now to see what happens...

Jim said:

"You can give my $100 bucks to TSP... "

Do you mean TFP or to the Tri Sodium Phosphate Corporation ? LOL