VSP keeps tripping breakers
- Thread starter tstex
- Start date
Yea it probably is a code violation. But the object is to see if it trips. If it doesn't then you know it's a GFCI trip a
Most certainally downstream of the breaker. It's for testing not to operate that way.
Have you tried moving the subpanel breakers as fat apart as possible in the subpanel?
Most certainally downstream of the breaker. It's for testing not to operate that way.
Have you tried moving the subpanel breakers as fat apart as possible in the subpanel?
No amount of rewire, new GFCI breakers, new motors, etc, will fix this issue. Look around the net at professional sparky sights. They all see this problem with VSP. A Siemens breaker MIGHT fix it for a bit. My understanding is that the Siemens breaker trips at 6mA difference, the others are 3-4 or 5mA. So that breaker gives you a little more leeway. Nobody I've found can give a real reason why the VSP pumps cause a GFCI breaker to trip, they just do. The current thought is they produce line noise that causes a enough voltage differential to cause a trip.
My understanding is that the state of Florida has a technical amendment to the 2014 NEC that waives the GFCI breaker for VSP.
Now this is my opinion, and my opinion only, so take it FWIW. I see no reason to have a direct wired, no plug, not handled by human hands pump line, connected to a GFCI breaker. None whatsoever. If you had a plug in pump, ok, sure. Pool light and convenience outlet, you bet. Direct wired pool pump? Not so much.
My understanding is that the state of Florida has a technical amendment to the 2014 NEC that waives the GFCI breaker for VSP.
Now this is my opinion, and my opinion only, so take it FWIW. I see no reason to have a direct wired, no plug, not handled by human hands pump line, connected to a GFCI breaker. None whatsoever. If you had a plug in pump, ok, sure. Pool light and convenience outlet, you bet. Direct wired pool pump? Not so much.
Yes, thank you bk. I too have concluded that the VSP at "whatever" RPM's gives off too much interference harmonics and causes an amp draw surge that is detected as an electrical leakage and thus trips the breaker.
Here is my question now. I have 4 daily speeds: Sd1- 2950RPM [6am-9am]; Sd2-1390RPM [9am-2pm]; Sp3-2850RPM [8pm-10pm]; Sp4-1290RPM [10pm-5am]. The last 5-6 trips have all occurred during Sp-2 at somewhere btw 11am-1pm. All of these times there either no start-up amp draw or change in amp draw like going from "varying speed" t another. The trips occur at a steady sustained 1390RPM. Also, no other equipment is activated during this time either....
QUESTION: it is my understanding that "the noise given off" is usually done at a "variable draw", which is either at start-up or dropping speed or picking-up speed from a current sustained speed. Why would it consistently trip at this time? I have Sq-D breakers now, but started-out w Siemens...thoughts ?
Here is my question now. I have 4 daily speeds: Sd1- 2950RPM [6am-9am]; Sd2-1390RPM [9am-2pm]; Sp3-2850RPM [8pm-10pm]; Sp4-1290RPM [10pm-5am]. The last 5-6 trips have all occurred during Sp-2 at somewhere btw 11am-1pm. All of these times there either no start-up amp draw or change in amp draw like going from "varying speed" t another. The trips occur at a steady sustained 1390RPM. Also, no other equipment is activated during this time either....
QUESTION: it is my understanding that "the noise given off" is usually done at a "variable draw", which is either at start-up or dropping speed or picking-up speed from a current sustained speed. Why would it consistently trip at this time? I have Sq-D breakers now, but started-out w Siemens...thoughts ?
ts,
Keep in mind that most people with VS pumps do not see this issue at all. It certainly seems to be site or installation specific.
Putting myself in your shoes, and using the information you provided, I'd change my speeds around to see if I could move the time the trips occur..
I'd swap places with the speeds run between 6 and 9 am with the speeds run between 9 am and 2 pm. and see if the time the trips happens moves.
If nothing changes, then I'd have the pump off between 11 am and 1 pm, just to see if the trips go away.
Another thing I might try is to run the pump at say 2200 RPM 24 hours a day, just to see what happens.
It can't hurt, nor would it cost much, and you might just stumble on a setting where the trips no longer happen.
Thanks,
Jim R.
Keep in mind that most people with VS pumps do not see this issue at all. It certainly seems to be site or installation specific.
Putting myself in your shoes, and using the information you provided, I'd change my speeds around to see if I could move the time the trips occur..
I'd swap places with the speeds run between 6 and 9 am with the speeds run between 9 am and 2 pm. and see if the time the trips happens moves.
If nothing changes, then I'd have the pump off between 11 am and 1 pm, just to see if the trips go away.
Another thing I might try is to run the pump at say 2200 RPM 24 hours a day, just to see what happens.
It can't hurt, nor would it cost much, and you might just stumble on a setting where the trips no longer happen.
Thanks,
Jim R.
Jim, thank you very much! Your thinking is certainly linked to isolating the problem of when it occurs.
BTW, I see you have a Pentair 3HP VSP. What are your daily settings and runtimes/RPM's per run time. Also, do you have the Pentair 20AMP GFCI D-Pole breakers made by Siemen's? Thanks again, tom
Pool Clown
In The Industry
I have heard and agree with this too. I heard that Siemens makes a 5mA AND a breaker for Pentair that has, and don't hold me to this, a 6mA rating, though there is no documentation of this other than the Pentair reps' say so. You can hold a Pentair/Siemans breaker and a Siemans breaker and not be able to tell a difference (visually) other than the Pentair print. The only way to insure you have the "higher rated?" breaker is to get the Pentair one (costs more). Having said that, i dont have experience with the VSP, and don't know if this breaker would fix that problem.
Something else, i have NOT read every word in this thread but i didn't see if anyone had addressed the electrical service to this pump. I think OP reported that things did run ok for a period of time. Wonder if anything changed, or is "changing" with the service that could be causing this? Don't know what though...
The two or more wires connected to the same point on the bus is something that would make an inspector look twice at, but i dont think it would make a difference. And I also saw a post that i think said something about green wires connected to the neutral bus?? I would try and get that sorted out.
ts,
I have the Pentair (made by Sieman's) Circuit Breaker.. It was installed by the PB when the pool was built. Being the as cheap as they are, I'm sure he installed it for a reason...
My pump runs on the following schedule. It is how I initially set it up and I have basically never changed it. Not saying it is the best schedule for everyone, just that it works for me..
Pump is set to run 24/7 at 1200 RPM - this is the minimum I need to turn on my SWCG plus 100 RPM
Increases to 2000 RPM between 8 am and 9 am
Increases to 1400 RPM between 12 pm and 1 pm
Increases to 1400 RPM between 4 pm and 5 pm
Increases to 2000 RPM between 8 pm and 9 pm
Increases to 1400 RPM between 12 am and 1 am
Increases to 1400 RPM between 4 am and 5 am
And finally increase to 2700 RPM between 7:49 to 7:59 am to run my water fall
Thanks,
Jim R.
I've also seen discussed the possibility that time (i.e. brush and armature wear) will cause more line noise. So that's a possibility.
The NEC only updated the code in 2014 to require a hard wired pump to have a GFCI breaker. Im guessing how this went was: They were sitting around updating the code and someone got the brilliant idea that if pumps on a plug required one, they should all have one.
Just like now outlets in the laundry, dishwasher, and disposal need one. And, now almost every room in the house requires an arc fault breaker, not just the bed rooms. So do refrigerator outlets. NOBODY put a GFI plug or breaker on the reefer. Its been know since tine started that reefers and stand alone freezers tripped the things when the compressor kicked on.
Some of this stuff borders on the absurd.
Thanks Jim - Actually the Seimens is not cheap and is what is recommended by many of the VSP manufacturers as the way to go to put the odds in your favor.
So basically your Pentair pump is truly a VSP. It runs at the 1200-1300RPM all the time at a minimum and then fluctuations btw the settings you outlined. This truly demonstrates that the up and down RPM's/Amp draw/Noise-harmonic distortions do not throw your 20amp GFCI breaker. You seem to defy the electrical paradigm of the noise issue, breakers flipping and VSP's - Hat's off to you.
How is your pump wired from Pump to breaker, and breaker to panel? Mainly, is there anything btw the pump and breaker besides wire? your highest RPM is 2700 and for a short time, so you are truly running the VSP at low amp draw w continuous movement to achieve lower elect bills and good water movement. Maybe this is a Hayward VSP issue.
Thx again.
BK, I can see where any potential wear on the pump could increase noise, thus the potential for high amp draws, this tripping breaker...as mentioned and along w your train of thought, is why couldn't higher mA's for GFCI's go from the 4-6 range to maybe 10-15mA and then see what happens.
I'm kind of handcuffed on what I can do until my warranty ends, which is 14-15 more months...I'm not fired-up about what the costs will be when it starts to accumulate due to electrical failures...Thanks BK
I'm kind of handcuffed on what I can do until my warranty ends, which is 14-15 more months...I'm not fired-up about what the costs will be when it starts to accumulate due to electrical failures...Thanks BK
ts,
The pump runs at 1,200 RPM most of the time.. It takes 1,100 to turn on the SWCG's flow switch, so I just run it at 1,200 RPM...
At 1,200 RPM the pump uses about 175 watts of electrical power. My "guess" is between $10 and $25 bucks a month total to run the pump.
Again.. the noise, or tripped GFCI issue, does not effect 99% of the people with VS pumps. (OK, I made up the exact percentage, but I suspect it is pretty close)
Two wires leave my Pentair GFCI and go directly to the pump, no connections or junctions boxes are in-between. They do not go anywhere else and the power from this CB is not used anywhere else.
I have the waterfall wall come on for 10 minutes a day, just to keep the pipes and water chlorinated. I only run it when I have guests (Showing off) and when I want to aerate to increase pH...
Jim R.
The new code requires class A gfci protection. Class A GFCIs should not trip below 4 mA. They must trip at 6 mA or higher. They can trip at 4 to 6 mA. Manufacturers might say 5 mA or 6 mA, but it's really the same thing.
This is called "Personnel Protection". It is intended to protect people vs equipment.
6 mA is considered the standard "Let go" maximum current. Basically, the maximum current that someone can still let go of vs being locked on by muscle contraction.
Also, note that the motors are " brushless" and don't have brushes that can wear down.
GFCIs are supposed to pass a standard noise test per UL943.
The issue might be caused by parasitic capacitance or electric discharge machining currents generated by the drive.
EDMC can be created by certain types of drives, like ones that use pulse width modulation and insulated gate bipolar transisters.
[Note: Bipolar transistors can be treated with Prozac. But that's a different story].
This is called "Personnel Protection". It is intended to protect people vs equipment.
6 mA is considered the standard "Let go" maximum current. Basically, the maximum current that someone can still let go of vs being locked on by muscle contraction.
Also, note that the motors are " brushless" and don't have brushes that can wear down.
GFCIs are supposed to pass a standard noise test per UL943.
The issue might be caused by parasitic capacitance or electric discharge machining currents generated by the drive.
EDMC can be created by certain types of drives, like ones that use pulse width modulation and insulated gate bipolar transisters.
[Note: Bipolar transistors can be treated with Prozac. But that's a different story].
Thanks Jim. Just a few comments.
"Again.. the noise, or tripped GFCI issue, does not effect 99% of the people with VS pumps. (OK, I made up the exact percentage, but I suspect it is pretty close)"
If you google "Variable Speed Pumps trip GFCI breaker" and/or "Hayward VSP trips GFCI breaker", etc...you will see a lot of hits re this matter. This is an industry std problem, or at least it's a Hayward problem for now...
"Two wires leave my Pentair GFCI and go directly to the pump, no connections or junctions boxes are in-between. They do not go anywhere else and the power from this CB is not used anywhere else."
Is there a green ground coming from the pump conduit? if so, does it go to the "green-ground area" inside the panel...Also, does the 20AMP GFCI breaker have a coiled white wire that goes to the neutral buss of the panel? Just as a safety statement, if you do open the panel, pls flip the breaker that services your entire panel
Have to make sure you are here to keep posting....
Thanks again
- - - Updated - - -
Thanks James - Yes, I have read a lot of the NEC code that GFCI breakers are now mandatory for pool pumps, and that Seimen's has the breaker that has a 6mA threshold, thus the highest alleged legal limit before tripping.
What kind of set-up in your pool do you have re pool pump make/model and pump breaker type? Thank you
"Again.. the noise, or tripped GFCI issue, does not effect 99% of the people with VS pumps. (OK, I made up the exact percentage, but I suspect it is pretty close)"
If you google "Variable Speed Pumps trip GFCI breaker" and/or "Hayward VSP trips GFCI breaker", etc...you will see a lot of hits re this matter. This is an industry std problem, or at least it's a Hayward problem for now...
"Two wires leave my Pentair GFCI and go directly to the pump, no connections or junctions boxes are in-between. They do not go anywhere else and the power from this CB is not used anywhere else."
Is there a green ground coming from the pump conduit? if so, does it go to the "green-ground area" inside the panel...Also, does the 20AMP GFCI breaker have a coiled white wire that goes to the neutral buss of the panel? Just as a safety statement, if you do open the panel, pls flip the breaker that services your entire panel
Have to make sure you are here to keep posting....Thanks again
- - - Updated - - -
Thanks James - Yes, I have read a lot of the NEC code that GFCI breakers are now mandatory for pool pumps, and that Seimen's has the breaker that has a 6mA threshold, thus the highest alleged legal limit before tripping.
What kind of set-up in your pool do you have re pool pump make/model and pump breaker type? Thank you
Here’s what I would suggest:
1) Have a good electrician check all electrical supply for correct installation.
2) Consider replacing the power wires to the pump with VFD rated power cable.
3) Contact the motor manufacturer to see if they can help.
4) Install a power quality monitor to record power quality.
5) Get the Pentair brand GFCI breakers.
1) Have a good electrician check all electrical supply for correct installation.
2) Consider replacing the power wires to the pump with VFD rated power cable.
3) Contact the motor manufacturer to see if they can help.
4) Install a power quality monitor to record power quality.
5) Get the Pentair brand GFCI breakers.
Thanks James...
I already had #1 done, except the physical wires from the breaker to the pump have not been physically or megger checked...
Re power wires to pump, what is a VFD power cable? Do you have this installed?
The manufacturer is offering to replace the entire VSP or switch out w a 2-speed or other...he's on board and is a pretty good guy....
I'll check into #4, but we've not had any issues w anything else in the house in 8-9 yrs
The Pentair Siemen's breakers Siemen's QF220 DP 20amp GFCI breakers are the same thing as the Siemen's, but just re-labeled for Pentair. This is what we started out w in the Jan-March 2015 start-up install date and had so many problems - we switched to Sq-D which is installed now.
What is so frustrating is that this worked ok for 7-8 months, but the pump was set at a constant speed [2950 RPM] and it only ran from 8am-4pm, so this was an expensive VSP set to run like a 1-speed pump. 8-9 months later when the motor was replaced, the tech changed the times and speeds from a single speed and one daily run to 4 diff speeds over 4 diff run times...that ran for about 4-5 months before all hexx started breaking loose...
There just seems to be no constant except every 5-7 months, something on the pump needs to be replaced, but now it's been complicated w the pump breaker tripping about every 5--9 days for the last 5-6 weeks...and, the tripping has been isolated to the second speed of 1390RPM btw 9am-2pm, but almost around the 11am-12noon timeframe...
Thanks again
I already had #1 done, except the physical wires from the breaker to the pump have not been physically or megger checked...
Re power wires to pump, what is a VFD power cable? Do you have this installed?
The manufacturer is offering to replace the entire VSP or switch out w a 2-speed or other...he's on board and is a pretty good guy....
I'll check into #4, but we've not had any issues w anything else in the house in 8-9 yrs
The Pentair Siemen's breakers Siemen's QF220 DP 20amp GFCI breakers are the same thing as the Siemen's, but just re-labeled for Pentair. This is what we started out w in the Jan-March 2015 start-up install date and had so many problems - we switched to Sq-D which is installed now.
What is so frustrating is that this worked ok for 7-8 months, but the pump was set at a constant speed [2950 RPM] and it only ran from 8am-4pm, so this was an expensive VSP set to run like a 1-speed pump. 8-9 months later when the motor was replaced, the tech changed the times and speeds from a single speed and one daily run to 4 diff speeds over 4 diff run times...that ran for about 4-5 months before all hexx started breaking loose...
There just seems to be no constant except every 5-7 months, something on the pump needs to be replaced, but now it's been complicated w the pump breaker tripping about every 5--9 days for the last 5-6 weeks...and, the tripping has been isolated to the second speed of 1390RPM btw 9am-2pm, but almost around the 11am-12noon timeframe...
Thanks again
ts,
Change the 1390 RPM to a different speed and see if the problem goes away...
Jim R.
Change the 1390 RPM to a different speed and see if the problem goes away...
Jim R.
Thanks Jim - Sorry, I know the horse is beat pretty bad by now...I'm going to change the speed to 1500RPM and lower the 2950 to 2650 and see what happens.
Note, I checked w cabling companies that offer VFD cabling and 99% are for industrial app's...no one deals w residential app's...I'll keep you posted and I do appreciate your follow-up...
Also, I dated a girl in Euless Texas during college and I remembered the Euless-Bedford name, so been pretty close to your area...make sure you have your freeze app on your pool automation system bc this weekend we'll both need it - thanks again
- May 23, 2015
- 24,651
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Why not replace the pump?
If you want to rack your brains on the details of stray inductance and capacitance in transformer analysis, see here - http://coefs.uncc.edu/mnoras/files/2013/03/Transformer-and-Inductor-Design-Handbook_Chapter_17.pdf
Your problems could simply be a poorly constructed motor, possibly just a one-off bad motor where there's some defect in the way the motor was built giving it too much stray capacitance in the windings. I believe these VSPs all have multiple windings in them that get turned on by the power supply at different RPMs along with the usual variable-frequency power applied. This way, the most efficient combination of drive frequency and motor windings can be utilized. The problem is, with multiple windings comes the possibility of stray inductance and capacitance across the different windings as well as within the windings themselves. When the VFD switches on and off (it's just a square-wave drive voltage), the leading and trailing edges of the square-wave can have significant voltage/current spikes show up as the stray parasitics charge & discharge. Unless a great deal of care is taken in how the coils are wound (special winging patterns) and how the wire sizes and insulation is specified, one can build up a large degree of stray parasitics.
So, you may have gotten the one bad luck motor out of the factory that probably passed the limited quality control measures but fails in the field. I'd take your PB up on the offer of a complete pump replacement as you should not have to futz around with your pool pump like this. It's just unacceptable and you have more than proven that you have a real problem and that you have exhausted all reasonable on-site fixes.
If you want to rack your brains on the details of stray inductance and capacitance in transformer analysis, see here - http://coefs.uncc.edu/mnoras/files/2013/03/Transformer-and-Inductor-Design-Handbook_Chapter_17.pdf
Your problems could simply be a poorly constructed motor, possibly just a one-off bad motor where there's some defect in the way the motor was built giving it too much stray capacitance in the windings. I believe these VSPs all have multiple windings in them that get turned on by the power supply at different RPMs along with the usual variable-frequency power applied. This way, the most efficient combination of drive frequency and motor windings can be utilized. The problem is, with multiple windings comes the possibility of stray inductance and capacitance across the different windings as well as within the windings themselves. When the VFD switches on and off (it's just a square-wave drive voltage), the leading and trailing edges of the square-wave can have significant voltage/current spikes show up as the stray parasitics charge & discharge. Unless a great deal of care is taken in how the coils are wound (special winging patterns) and how the wire sizes and insulation is specified, one can build up a large degree of stray parasitics.
So, you may have gotten the one bad luck motor out of the factory that probably passed the limited quality control measures but fails in the field. I'd take your PB up on the offer of a complete pump replacement as you should not have to futz around with your pool pump like this. It's just unacceptable and you have more than proven that you have a real problem and that you have exhausted all reasonable on-site fixes.
ts,
"Also, I dated a girl in Euless Texas during college and I remembered the Euless-Bedford name, so been pretty close to your area...make sure you have your freeze app on your pool automation system bc this weekend we'll both need it"
I'd keep the thing with the local girl quiet, as the police may still be looking for you.
Since my pump runs 24/7, freeze protection is not an issue for me.
I thought you already had the pump replaced.. if not, then I'm with Matt on this one.
Jim R.
"Also, I dated a girl in Euless Texas during college and I remembered the Euless-Bedford name, so been pretty close to your area...make sure you have your freeze app on your pool automation system bc this weekend we'll both need it"
I'd keep the thing with the local girl quiet, as the police may still be looking for you.
Since my pump runs 24/7, freeze protection is not an issue for me.
I thought you already had the pump replaced.. if not, then I'm with Matt on this one.
Jim R.