Upgrade Of Pool Pump, System, Equipment

[albert436]

Hello everyone and greetings to the good people of the forum.

I'm in the San Diego area and would like to do some upgrading to my mom's ~50 year old pool. It is a 32' long oval, with a shallow end that is a bit deeper than normal, maybe 4.5' (?). I have heard a size estimate of 15,000 gallons from one of the local pool service companies.

What happened was -- well long story, but we had to run new power out to the pool, and also the underwater light is kaput. The new power line is installed and the old pump is hooked up. The pool turned green in the meantime. Funniest thing, Google Earth actually happened to get a shot of the place when the pool was green.

First of all, I'd like to put in a variable speed pump, maybe one of those Pentair Intelliflo 3hp numbers, in order to reduce power consumption.

Also a new filter. Currently she has a DE filter, I'm not sure of the size but the pool people seem to think it is a bit small.

A new pool cleaning device would be nice. I have had recommended a Pentair Racer Pressure Side Cleaner, vs. a "Rebel", vs. Hayward Navigator Pro. Apparently the Pentair would require a new booster pump as well. Considerations are that pool isn't that big, I don't want something too heavy to be lifted out easily, the pool isn't plumbed for it. The current device has PVC pipe crossing the pool deck from its pump.

I would like to put a new pool light in, and I know this will be expensive. We went ahead and made a cut in the concrete deck so it is ready to be trenched out down to the light. I noticed in the pool store yesterday an LED replacement light with different colors that looked interesting, anyone ever seen that before ? BTW, if I let the water level down, trench out down to the light level, and have my electrician do the wiring, what's a reasonable cost for them to set the light in place? That's the main thing I would like them to do, as I have my own people for the other work and they seem to want an arm and a leg for running the wire over to a new junction box from the new subpanel we put out there. I would likely give them a contract for pool maintenance service, not trying to take advantage of them but it seemed a bit exorbitant, let me put it that way.

Here's the toughest question: What are the most favorable options for alternative sanitizing systems? I would like to reduce the chlorine needed. I personally just don't like it after years of spending hours and hours in pools, including competitive swimming and waterpolo through university. My mom is 90 and she loves to swim, but as you know people tend to get more sensitive as they get older.

I checked yesterday, the underground part of the pipes are copper. The pool equipment is right nearby to the pool itself, within 10 feet.

I understand that there may be issues with salt water systems and copper. One other thing is that she has ladder handles mounted in the deck, and above the water, that are made of stainless steel. (see below)

I don't want to get controversial here but the loveliest pool I have swam in (and there have been many) used ozone + chlorine, but I understand that can also be a problem with copper. I had a chat with the Del company about there Eclipse 20 device but was told it wasn't compatible with copper.

Are these copper issues absolute, or just things that can happen if your chemistry gets way out of whack ? How about mitigation by using one of these zinc anodes ? ? ?

How about copper ionizer + chlorine systems? Again I don't mean to be controversial, just want to find out if there are ways to significantly reduce the annoying smelly chlorine. I have seen some suggestions online that these systems are completely bogus ! But I do understand that for both ionizers and ozone systems, some chlorine is needed and that is fine.

I stumbled across one more type of system that seems controversial, and that is UV light + chlorine. Can someone give me the skinny on that? Legit or pie in the sky ? At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I don't mind using some chlorine but if it could even be one third of the usual amount that would be great.

Or put it this way, since I don't understand about the compounds vs free chlorine etc etc, what I'd like is a significant reduction of the effects generally attributed by the lay public to chlorine.

If I get someone to do the "plumbing" part of the installation, how hard is it to program the pump, etc. ?

Lastly, I hope it doesn't sound sacrilegious here, I'm thinking that using a pool service for ~$110/month would be good insurance to make sure everything stays perfectly balanced, since I am a fairly busy professional and live across town from my mom, and as I mentioned she is 90 after all. Is OK ?

If I may summarize:

I. Alternatives to regular chlorination, considering copper pipes
A. Salt Water
B. Copper Ionizer + chlorine
C. Ozone + chlorine - Del Eclipse 20 (this puts out a lot of ozone)
D. UV + chlorine

II. Copper pipes
A. How likely is damage from Salt or Ozone ?
B. Mitigate with Zinc Anode ? (How well does this work ?)

III. Pool Cleaning Device
A. Suggest effective, durable, and good value models ?
B. Requiring extra pump vs. not ?
C. Suction vs. Pressure vs. Robotic

IV. If I DIY pump, filter, etc, with my own contractor, how hard to program ?

V. Reasonable cost to set the underwater light ?

VI. Multicolored LED light ?

I think that's about it !

Please no flaming or tirades if you have a special grudge against any of the "alternative" sanitizing methods, for all I know they may be complete scams. I'm a total noob to this and just would like calm objective info !

Appreciate all the great stuff posted by the friendly people here!


:nemo:



The stainless rails above the side steps look something like this

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome to TFP!

Wow, this post kept going and going. Too many questions to address at once.

For the pool size, a smaller VS pump might make more sense, like the superflo or maxflo.

What kind of filter do you want? A sand filter is generally the least work.

I would suggest an electric robot for the pool since you have no plumbing for a cleaner and a booster pump just wastes power.

There really is no valid alternative to chlorine. Your perception is skewed having been exposed to public pools ... Following TFP you will not have the same experience. To lessen the work load, a SWG would be a good route to take. Realize that it is still a chlorine pool. Adding more copper is a bad idea and does little for pathogens. UV (which the sun provides for free) and ozone only treat the water that pass through the system. So the bulk water is not protected and thus the need for chlorine.

Last thought for now. A pool service will never keep the water as balanced as the way we teach to maintain pools. It is just not possible when only coming weekly. Having a SWG and pool service might get you pretty close since you should not have wild swings in the chlorine level.

 

[DaninFLA]

$110 a month for a pool service??? wow. you can buy the recommended TF100 kit for $68 that will last for a year or two.

If you can swing the upfront cost for the Saltwater system, around $1,500 installed, that's the way to go. the biggest issue with saltwater pools is for people that have soft stone coping/decking around the pool that salt can affect. doesn't sound like that's a concern here. concrete, etc decking is fine.

you have a lot of things you are trying to throw into this, which frankly are a waste of money. ozone, UV, etc are not needed or wanted. pool maintenance (especially with a saltwater sysem) is super easy. I have a saltwater system. I test chlorine levels probably every other day, usually nothing needed, sometimes a quick adjustment on the cell percentage. and then I test pH once I week and add a little bit of muriatic acid. that's it. every month or two I will run a full set of tests, but that's more because I like too, haha. pool maintenance the way its taught here is easy. shoot, some people may even say its "trouble free"

I would suggest you read thru pool school to see the basics and get educated on pool care. you will see everything you think you know about pool care that is taught by the pool stores needs to be un-learned. people cant believe maintaining a pool is so easy, but with the knowledge of some basic pool chemistry and the ability to test accurately, it really is.

 

[albert436]

Very nice of you guys to reply, yes I know there were a lot of questions contained in that post !

As I said, as a noob there is a lot rattling around in my brain.

Funny when I was a kid I used to know how to do that testing stuff but that was quite a number of years ago.

I should explain a little better. My mom is still pretty sharp at 90 years old but her memory isn't what it used to be and I don't think she would quite be able to do all that testing.

As for me, I'm across town and a somewhat busy professional, so it would be a bit hard for me to get out there every few days and do the testing. Am I a bad son ? I do try to get over there a few times a week, I often bring groceries. Sometimes, she is home, sometimes not. I want to start staying over some nights of the week, it is near to where I work in any case.

So that's the reason I was thinking about the pool service.

Also, I do understand about needing chlorine or supplemental chlorine with whichever alternative system we might use. I saw something about salt systems and copper pipes and so I was a little concerned about whether that's a real problem in a well maintained pool. I actually like the low maintenance aspect of the salt water system as you describe it, plus the chlorine effect are much less, aren't they ?

Thanks for the comment about the robotic cleaner, at first I thought it would be way overboard to have one of those, but I did some reading after seeing another thread about the Dolphin and am coming around to that point of view. It isn't clear to me that the Polaris bag even traps dirt as opposed to just stirring it up for the filter to take in.

About the Dolphins -- are they effective at picking up average size leaves ? My mom's pool doesn't have lots and lots of them but does get some. Most leaf picker uppers have big mesh bags and I don't notice anything like that on the Dolphins.

Thanks again gentlemen, hope I have been able to better clarify.



Oh yes one more thing, the sand filter. I think she has DE now. I don't understand the pros and cons of the different filter types, is there an informational page somewhere that explains it ? I think I read somewhere that the sand filters take something like 600# of sand, which seems like a lot to me ! But still I have always liked that concept. Does the sand need to be washed/flushed/changed every so often ? I would like to learn more.

Thank you.

 

[DaninFLA]

saltwater system is chlorine, there is no difference in the chemistry. the only difference is your cell is creating chlorine gas from the salt in the water. you still have to have the proper amount of chlorine in the pool, its just the delivery that's different.

sorry, no experience with the cleaners

as far as the service goes, well they are only going to go there once a week, which it sounds like you will as well if not more. so you can be the pool service and save a bunch of money. if you cant be there to add bleach every day, then the saltwater system is the way to go. it will be making chlorine everyday when you aren't there, and if you can test once a week you will see if the chlorine levels are high or low and adjust the output accordingly. its really your only option it looks like. you will need to go 2-3 times a week for the first few weeks to "dial it in", but once you know where the system should be running you could get a way with once a week. if you could do twice a week even better.

if you are concerned about the copper pipes (I wouldn't be), then remove them and replace with pvc, but I don't see the issue at all

 

[DaninFLA]

also, read your comments about not liking chlorine pools. the complaints against chlorine pools is typical from public pools and improperly maintained private pools. a pool that is maintained in the manner we do it will not have a chlorine smell, no burning eyes, etc. I get compliments all the time when people are at my house. its always the same two comments/questions: 1) wow, how do you keep your pool so crystal clear and 2) what do you put in the pool to keep it clear, its obviously not chlorine. I explain its salt and they always say, oh so no chlorine. I try and explain it, lol.

meanwhile my pool has a chlorine concentration of 8ppm in it and you would never be able to tell, that's all because we understand the relationship between FC and CYA. I swim in my pool with my eyes open under water and they never burn.

 

[Kiss4aFrog]

Usually the chlorine smell and burn is from public pools as they keep the chlorine really high for sanitation reasons. My pool, his pool, your pool will be at a level to handle normal sanitation needs including the occasional opps without smelling it or it being a problem with your eyes.

If you can't be there daily and you're not sold on salt with a chlorine generator you can also check into a pump to add chlorine. Usually it's tied into a timer to stir the pool and add the chemical. Both the salt or pump method do a good job of approximating what you need once you set them up properly but you still need to fine tune it a bit here and there with a manual adjustment.

One brand of chlorine pump - > Stenner Chlorinator Pumps for Commercial Pool and Aquatic Facilities

 

[Agent99]

Chlorine smell is actually chloromines. Chlorine is being translated into chloromines (doing its job sanitiizing) and that is what burns one's eyes and offends one's nose. It is actually a sign that more chlorine needs to be added since it is being used up.

 

[albert436]

Great info, thanks everyone, I need to read up on this stuff.

I didn't realize that there are chlorine pumps also, thanks for the tips. Will the salt systems corrode metal, and will the chlorine pumps avoid that potential problem ?

Agent 99 are you THAT Agent 99 ?

 

[Agent99]

I might be.....

 

[jblizzle]

Here is a discussion about filters:
Pool School - Pool Filter Comparison
Pool School - Maintenance and Cleaning of Pool Filters

Here is one about cleaners:
Pool School - Automatic Pool Cleaners

Here is one about SWGs:
Pool School - Salt Water Chlorine Generators

Lots more to discover in Pool School. Start with these:
ABCs of Water Chemistry
Recommended Pool Chemicals
How to Chlorinate Your Pool

 

[albert436]

Thanks JB and everyone.

Thinking low maintenance and possibly sand filter is good for that. Appreciate the comment on salt and copper pipes, though still wondering about the stainless ladder rails and light ring.

And I am off to do more reading !

:study:

PS. Can one purchase the test kits somewhere online that will help support the forum?

 

[DaninFLA]

instead of trying to prove there is no issue with the saltwater system and the pipes, can you tell us what your specific concern is and why you think its an issue? there are a LOT of myths about pools, and most are not true by the way. you vaguely mentioned you read something, but please be a bit more specific.

as far as the ladder and light, zero issues with that and the salt. stainless is hands down the correct choice, so no issues there. also, a saltwater pool is not the same as ocean water. a saltwater pool is around 3000-4000 ppm salt, while the ocean is around 35,000 ppm, so its 1/10th the salt level.

as far as purchasing to support the forum, buy it from TFTestkits.net, they also own this forum

as far as your filter goes and maintenance, I would recommend a cartridge filter. sand filters need backwashing, etc to keep them clean, and a lot more often too. a good sized cartridge filter should only need to be cleaned probably once a year, maybe twice if you have an algae issue.

 

[albert436]

as far as the ladder and light, zero issues with that and the salt. stainless is hands down the correct choice, so no issues there.

Great info, thanks. It is all over the internet when googling, that salt water pools will cause corrosion of metal, etc. etc., which is the reason I was asking.

Also thanks about the test kit info, that's exactly what I was looking for !

Not having to do backwashing and so forth makes the cartridge filter sound appealing, since I think the lowest possible maintenance is desirable in this situation. I will explore that option further.

I got some good advice from a moderator to put all my posts together in one thread. I was posting randomly when I saw threads pertaining to my interests, so I thought I might cross-post something here, and I hope it is alright to do so. It has to do with an automatic pool cleaning device, the thread was specifically about the Nautilus Plus:

Until I read this thread and started exploring the subject, I thought there was no way I would want one of these things as I figured they were way overkill. But now I am thinking it is really the best way to go.

1. No need for auxiliary pump
2. No need to hook up to and unhook from skimmer vacuum port.
3. No need to program pump
4. Pool doesn't have built-in port for pressure cleaner, no need for pipe to cross deck
5. Unit doesn't weight that much and can be removed from pool fairly easily
6. It actually picks up dirt rather than just stirring it into the water like the pressure washer (vacuum cleaner also picks up dirt to be fair)
7. Price - not more than pressure cleaner considering need for aux pump (though more than simple vac cleaner)
8. Reputed to actually do a great job of cleaning

Cons
1. Reliability ? This may be problem with other type units as well, including Hayward Navigator Pro recommended to me, ie. parts need to be replaced somewhat frequently.
2. I'm still not convinced on its leaf picking up capability, without a bag it just looks a bit small.

Comments on the above ?

:fish:

 

[DaninFLA]

the only corrosion I have had at my pool is around my pool lanai. the screws that attach the lanai to the concrete deck have rusted out, but the enclosure is 10 years old so no biggie. I am going to have to drill them out and replace this fall.

The bigger concern with your piping is going to be from low pH than from the saltwater. the saltwater concentrations in the pool are 1/10 that of seawater. low pH can be corrosive to copper, and I have never heard of anyone with saltwater systems having an issue. there is typically a lot of copper in a water heater, and plenty of people have water heaters on saltwater pools. being that you are getting a good test kit and are going to stay on top of testing, having a really low pH shouldn't an issue. people get really low pH from using a bunch of trichlor which drives down pH. again, not an issue since you wont be using this to chlorinate your pool.

the only concern I would have with a saltwater system was if you had a bunch of soft natural stone for your coping and/or decking. even then, that can be addressed through sealing the rock.

 

[otter86753]

I have stainless ladders and a SWG and I have no issues with corrosion. Also, we have a beach house on front beach with a copper roof and no corrosion with many many times more PPM salt concentration (granted the water is not flowing on it like it would in your pool plumbing, but it does get ocean spray on it 24/7/365.

 

[Tepelus]

I am using bromine as alternative sanitizer if you do not like the chlorine. I use it togather with an oversized UV lamp. Bromine does not smell like chloramines, but it has its own smell when the dome cover is in place. Many people think that a UV lamp is a waste of money, but I think that it is a perfect complement to the bromine sanitation system since the UV will make a small amount of ozone and that will activate the bromine. It will also kill more than 99% of bacteria or algae that passes through the filter. I have installed pH controller that keeps the pH at 7.3. It makes life a little easier together with a Zodilac robot-great for removing all debris from the pool. The conventional wisdom states the bromine is more expensive, but bromine is more stable than chlorine and easy to protect with a pool cover. The chemistry is somehow more complicated, but the results are great and the swimming pool can be left unattended for long periods of time. If you decide to go with a SWG, the pool needs attention basically once a week.

 

[jblizzle]

Opening a cartridge filter, lifting the wet heavy cartridge out and spraying it clean is a lot more work than turning a valve and flipping on the pump.

Bromine can not be protected from the sun as well as chlorine and many people are bothered more by its smell than properly maintained chlorine.

Btw, If you become a supporter of the forum, you get a code for a discount on the test kit.

 

[albert436]

The people here are so wonderfully helpful.

Good to know that about the salt water pool and metal, my mom's ladder rails are actually not in the water, but deck mounted as I have pictured above, and they are stainless.

No natural stone around the pool, thank goodness. Concrete deck and regular old fashioned coping tiles, regular for here in Southern California I can say at least.

I had a look yesterday and it seems the old heater has been removed. I posted a question in another thread about sizing for a solar H2O warming system; they were discussing automatic valves and such. In the summer it isn't needed but I could extend the swim season a bit. Of course too warm of water isn't good either, but the colder the outside temp, the warmer the water temp can be. We get lots of sun here so we have that in our favor.

The copper we have is three runs of ~10-15 feet underground from the pool shed to the skimmer and two wall returns. I don't see that happening, although we have already cut concrete and will trench out to replace wiring for the underwater light.

But the copper isn't a concern as far as the salt water, it was mainly the stainless. The copper was just a concern from the ozone system -- the Del company said don't do it as the ozone could cause staining and green water, 'nuff said.

I think I may have read something about automatic pH control, I wonder what the cost is for a residential sized unit ? Also one needs to make sure it is working properly, right ? But anything to reduce work is great in my mind. Just remembered, there was a large complex of buildings where I went to medical school named after the fellow who invented the pH meter, apparently he did quite well. I presume this device feeds CO2 gas or acid or something into the water as needed ? I like the concept in any case.

My only experience with bromine was a public pool in Central California where I worked out for a while. The water was a little salty (do you get that effect?). My understanding was that it would tend to get a little more salty due to evaporation until they'd need to drain some off and top it off with fresh water. This was in a public pool and 15 years ago so it may be a completely different animal and the technology may have changed. Amazing, you say the pool can be left unattended for long periods ? How does that work ? ? ? South of France, I'm envious ! I've just been reading a bio of the author W.S. Maughum, richer than Croesus and lived in a villa there for over 40 years.

Thanks everyone for being so patient with a total noob ! Sometimes I feel like I have so much on my plate, the help is really welcome.

 

[otter86753]

The people here are so wonderfully helpful.

I think I may have read something about automatic pH control, I wonder what the cost is for a residential sized unit ? Also one needs to make sure it is working properly, right ? But anything to reduce work is great in my mind. Just remembered, there was a large complex of buildings where I went to medical school named after the fellow who invented the pH meter, apparently he did quite well. I presume this device feeds CO2 gas or acid or something into the water as needed ? I like the concept in any case.

Yes they are!

Others will chime in, but once you get your pool balanced and know what it needs, the maintenance with a SWG can be minimal. Once I got my TA and PH where my pool likes it, I haven't added MA in three months. My PH stays right where I want it. From some posts from ChemGeek in particular, it is not a hard and fast rule to care for pools. Each pool/situation is different. It is up to you to take the information and apply it to your particular pool and do what is best given all your requirements/constraints. You are doing a great thing to care for your mom and her pool Good luck and ask all the questions you need/want.