UPDATE - Cancelling Attempt to bring 12V light back in working order

[ajw22]

This the voltmeter I have - what do I set it to (if it's acceptable) and where do I touch the other lead to?

I am concerned about your safety working around live voltages. That is why I would prefer you to use a non-contact voltage tester to confirm what wires are hot and then confirm power is truly off from all wires in the Compool panel before you touch any wires.

Presume when testing what's labeled AUX1 in purple, I place the red or black lead from the meter on the screw head marked in purple, but where does the other lead go? This is with the Blower and 240 Pool CB on, but Lite off. Repeat same for Lite and AUX2 with Blower CB off. If I then get power readings for each, it means they're labeled correctly in the annotated pic?

There is always the risk that an electrician has swapped the LINE and LOAD wires. Thus we cannot assume that the LINE wire is hot and the LOAD wire is not hot if the relay is off.

Electrical safety requires that everything be physically confirmed and there have been too many things around your pool electrical system that were not as you thought they were.

And then unscrew the one purple marked screw, cap it off, and then... it's done?

If that is physically confirmed to be the correct wire.

Also pictured is the putty and silicone product just bought to do this,

To do what?

You should use a wire nut to put on exposed wire ends once they are removed from the screw.

Lastly, the pool and spa, sundown, this week.

Nice pool.

 

[Raleigh999]

I am concerned about your safety working around live voltages. That is why I would prefer you to use a non-contact voltage tester to confirm what wires are hot and then confirm power is truly off from all wires in the Compool panel before you touch any wires.




There is always the risk that an electrician has swapped the LINE and LOAD wires. Thus we cannot assume that the LINE wire is hot and the LOAD wire is not hot if the relay is off.

Electrical safety requires that everything be physically confirmed and there have been too many things around your pool electrical system that were not as you thought they were.



If that is physically confirmed to be the correct wire.



To do what?

You should use a wire nut to put on exposed wire ends once they are removed from the screw.



Nice pool.

Can't we reliably enough deduce that the CB labeled Lite is indeed for the light as all other labeled switches control what they're marked as, confirmed by switching them off and audibly or visibly seeing the blower and the pump/filter, respectively, stop working. Is the point of doing voltmeter testing to find which wire to pull on AUX2 and cap off to as a final step to permanently kill it, (on top of switching the Lite breaker off, and having the relay/toggle switch off, and - possibly - taking out the fuses on the transformers)? Is that necessary?

It seems appropriate then to also confirm, is there a risk to letting the transformers sit there without fuses, that they might somehow put full 120V through?

"To do what"
This is what the new pool putty was intended for, so, as you noted: "You can plug that hole although the conduit is made to be flooded. It can stop a leak if there is a break in the conduit letting water leak out."

I have to wonder if some basic part of the whole picture has not been presented here - perhaps I failed to convey that this pool isn't in a newly acquired old home with all kinds of question marks. We've been using it every year for many years with things as they are. I simply tried to change a 12V bulb, things spiraled out, and then I wanted to just go back.

And in a similar vein of clearing up possibly basic things overlooked, why is the upper left toggle even labeled SPA at the top at all - shouldn't it be called a another name since it gives a choice of actuating something that controls flow to either the pool OR the spa? As you described: "That should cause the actuators on the SUCTION and RETURN valves to rotate to direct the water flow to the pool or spa." So why is it labeled just SPA - is this a normal naming convention in the industry, or what would a more logical name be?

 

[Raleigh999]

Fixture won't easily fit back into its space.

Reassembled fixture with a thin coat of silicone around the (2-year-old) o-ring to further help seal. Major struggle - and still unsuccessful - to pack fixture and its thick cord back into the niche. The niche hardly has any bottom lip to clip the bottom part of the fixture into before screwing the top. Worse, there are 12 screws with tabs around the circumference of the lens that slightly angle out under torque and then there's hardly any room left to fit it back into the niche. As unlikely as it may sound, the screws angling out about 1mm under torque seem to make it worse. The 1" thick and not very flexible cable gets in the way behind the light, and was too short to lift fixture fully out onto deck and turn upside down to comfortably work - so it's awkward angles all around, and with those most unwelcome, flathead screws. It is impossible to comfortably work on getting the light into the pool niche without it drained.

Merely sought to change a bulb...

 

[ajw22]

Can't we reliably enough deduce that the CB labeled Lite is indeed for the light as all other labeled switches control what they're marked as, confirmed by switching them off and audibly or visibly seeing the blower and the pump/filter, respectively, stop working. Is the point of doing voltmeter testing to find which wire to pull on AUX2 and cap off to as a final step to permanently kill it, (on top of switching the Lite breaker off, and having the relay/toggle switch off, and - possibly - taking out the fuses on the transformers)? Is that necessary?

You don't know for sure which wire and relay is being used when you activate the switches.

You seem to not have much experience in doing things that have the potential to injure or kill you. Only physical verification of assumptions will keep you safe.

As I said before we do not know for certain which is AUX1 and which is AUX2.

It seems appropriate then to also confirm, is there a risk to letting the transformers sit there without fuses, that they might somehow put full 120V through?

I would do that using the ohmmeter setting on my multimeter if I was there and look for an open circuit between the transformer and the pool light wire.

"To do what"
This is what the new pool putty was intended for, so, as you noted: "You can plug that hole although the conduit is made to be flooded. It can stop a leak if there is a break in the conduit letting water leak out."

Agreed.

I have to wonder if some basic part of the whole picture has not been presented here - perhaps I failed to convey that this pool isn't in a newly acquired old home with all kinds of question marks. We've been using it every year for many years with things as they are. I simply tried to change a 12V bulb, things spiraled out, and then I wanted to just go back.

That pool wiring was unsafe and you did not know that. You cannot go back from knowing it is unsafe. This is sometimes the result of starting a project and opening up a can of worms you did not know were there.

Any professional would not leave it in an unsafe condition once they are aware of it.

As a hack homeowner you can do what you conscious allows.

And in a similar vein of clearing up possibly basic things overlooked, why is the upper left toggle even labeled SPA at the top at all - shouldn't it be called a another name since it gives a choice of actuating something that controls flow to either the pool OR the spa? As you described: "That should cause the actuators on the SUCTION and RETURN valves to rotate to direct the water flow to the pool or spa." So why is it labeled just SPA - is this a normal naming convention in the industry, or what would a more logical name be?

I think it is very logical.

One switch position runs the POOL the other position runs the SPA for use.

 

[Raleigh999]

You don't know for sure which wire and relay is being used when you activate the switches.

You seem to not have much experience in doing things that have the potential to injure or kill you. Only physical verification of assumptions will keep you safe.

As I said before we do not know for certain which is AUX1 and which is AUX2.



I would do that using the ohmmeter setting on my multimeter if I was there and look for an open circuit between the transformer and the pool light wire.



Agreed.



That pool wiring was unsafe and you did not know that. You cannot go back from knowing it is unsafe. This is sometimes the result of starting a project and opening up a can of worms you did not know were there.

Any professional would not leave it in an unsafe condition once they are aware of it.

As a hack homeowner you can do what you conscious allows.



I think it is very logical.

One switch position runs the POOL the other position runs the SPA for use.

RE: "very logical" - Under one toggle switch designated solely as SPA, it has two positions (Spa & Pool). Why is that whole switch called SPA then? Do you follow? Since it does not deal solely or in any conceivable way mainly with SPA - why term the overall switch SPA? Saying this is very logical hardly makes obvious sense.

 

[ajw22]

RE: "very logical" - Under a one toggle switch designated solely as SPA, it has two positions (Spa & Pool). Why is that whole switch called SPA then? Do you follow? Since it does not deal solely or in any conceivable way mainly with SPA - term it SPA? Saying this is very logical hardly makes any kind of obvious sense.

How do you think you turn on the water flow to your spa?

 

[Raleigh999]

We have AUX1 and AUX2. The AUX 1 toggle switch activates the blower, physically confirmed by seeing the blower (spa jets) work. So why is it that we do not assume that the AUX2 switch (labeled light) is tied to the only other available option: non-working light?

I fail to see.

All these switches are wired to control what they say they control and do, confirmed by their active physical function.

 

[Raleigh999]

How do you think you turn on the water flow to your spa?

By flipping it to the spa position. That's not the question.

The switch for pool—spa water flow has SPA labeled on it twice - do you see? Once above it in larger font, and then once to the left of it for the up-toggle position in smaller font, then pool in the down position. To select water flow for either, it's flipped to spa or pool accordingly. How on earth does it make sense that a switch which has both spa and pool functions is only called the SPA switch? Do you agree that it's called the SPA switch though it switches flow to the pool as well? And this is logical?

 

[Raleigh999]

"That pool wiring was unsafe and you did not know that. You cannot go back from knowing it is unsafe. This is sometimes the result of starting a project and opening up a can of worms you did not know were there."

Logical, of course. But are you here referring to all of the pool wiring in general (and based upon what again?) or primarily or only just the pool light - which now has the breaker off and which we know controls that light as it long did so and would now, but is out of the loop with the breaker off.

 

[ajw22]

We have AUX1 and AUX2. The AUX 1 toggle switch activates the blower, physically confirmed by seeing the blower (spa jets) work. So why is it that we do not assume that the AUX2 switch (labeled light) is tied to the only other available option: non-working light?

I fail to see.

All these switches are wired to control what they say they control and do, confirmed by their active physical function.

How do YOU know which wires go to AUX1 and AUX2?

Could the switch be mislabeled?

Such an assumption could kill you.

 

[ajw22]

By flipping it to the spa position. That's not the question.

The switch for pool—spa water flow has SPA labeled on it twice - do you see? Once above it in larger font, and then once to the left of it for the up-toggle position in smaller font, then pool in the down position. To select water flow for either, it's flipped to spa or pool accordingly. How on earth does it make sense that a switch which has both spa and pool functions is only called the SPA switch? Do you agree that it's called the SPA switch though it switches flow to the pool as well? And this is logical?

Is that a 2 position or 3 position switch?

I think that is just the way they labeled it. POOL is the normal operating position. When someone wants to turn on the SPA they look for a switch labeled SPA.

 

[ajw22]

"That pool wiring was unsafe and you did not know that. You cannot go back from knowing it is unsafe. This is sometimes the result of starting a project and opening up a can of worms you did not know were there."

Logical, of course. But are you here referring to all of the pool wiring in general (and based upon what again?) or primarily or only just the pool light - which now has the breaker off and which we know controls that light as it long did so and would now, but is out of the loop with the breaker off.

How did you physically verify that the breaker labeled LITE turns off power to the light circuit?

Or is that another assumption that can kill you?

 

[Raleigh999]

How do YOU know which wires go to AUX1 and AUX2?

Could the switch be mislabeled?

Such an assumption could kill you.

1. Let's be much clearer. When you refer to "the switch," do you mean this panel with black toggle switches? If so, then, as mentioned, all those switches do in fact control what they are labeled as, and are designated to control. No, they are absolutely not mislabeled.

2. I don't see a reason to go inside and pull any of the wires in your well-annotated photo, as the breaker (not pictured here) for the pool light is off. So off is off for the light circuit, right?

 

[ajw22]

2. I don't see the reason to go inside and pull any wires in your annotated photo. The breaker for the pool light is off. So off is off for the light circuit, right?

How do you know that is the breaker for the pool light? You thought it was the 240V breaker which it was not.

I told you it may be the breaker labeled LITE but not to believe me unless you physically confirm it. Which as far as I can tell you have not.

Instead of all this verbiage buy a Klein Non-Contact Voltage Tester and then you will have the tool to confirm where you have voltage and where you don't.

Talking about it will not make it so.

 

[Raleigh999]

How do you know that is the breaker for the pool light? You thought it was the 240V breaker which it was not.

I told you it may be the breaker labeled LITE but not to believe me unless you physically confirm it. Which as far as I can tell you have not.

Instead of all this verbiage buy a Klein Non-Contact Voltage Tester and then you will have the tool to confirm where you have voltage and where you don't.

Talking about it will not make it so.

"How do you know that is the breaker for the pool light? You thought it was the 240V breaker which it was not."

We know what it is that every single other breaker does, and they all are working, shutting off what they control, when flipped. So the answer is deduction. The pool equipment, we later understood, is under the 240 line - when that's off, nothing else works. Beneath that, blower, filter, and "lite" have their own dedicated breakers, but again, they do not work when their 240 breaker is off. They do not work when the 240 is on but they are off. This is why it was initially thought that the 240 controls the "lite".

 

[ajw22]

"How do you know that is the breaker for the pool light? You thought it was the 240V breaker which it was not."

We know what it is that every single other breaker does, and they all are working, shutting off what they control, when flipped. So the answer is deduction. The pool equipment, we later understood, is under the 240 line - when that's off, nothing else works. Beneath that, blower, filter, and "lite" have their own dedicated breakers, but again, they do not work when their 240 breaker is off. They do not work when the 240 is on but they are off. This is why it was initially thought that the 240 controls the "lite".

And that illustrates how your deduction can mislead you.

You had a hot wire in the box that you thought was off.

 

[Raleigh999]

"You had a hot wire in the box that you thought was off."

No, with the 240 CB off, everything I would engage with is off while putting the light back in, also with CB "Lite" off. I had no inclination to go into that particular "box" (this is specifically the box in the annotated photo, but they're all "boxes" - CB box, j-box, toggle switch box, box with fuses, etc. - to be clear). I was resisting it, despite the repeated prompts I was given to go in there. Why would I ever do that here when we know all the CBs and understand what they control.

Spoke with multiple techs today on the phone - each asserted that as long as the breakers were off, I could put the sealed light back into the niche, and if we want to keep all power from it off, then leaving the Lite CB off, and, if desired, removing the transformer fuses would be enough.

Flown many, many miles from overseas to be with family in the US this week. Have stressed massively over this.

In short, your assertion is that everything must be tested by means of a meter, not turning off related CB, if we want to be safely in the pool. Even with the transformer fuses out.

 

[1poolman1]

"You had a hot wire in the box that you thought was off."

No, with the 240 CB off, everything I would engage with is off while putting the light back in. I had no inclination to go into that particular "box" (this is specifically the box in the annotated photo, but they're all "boxes" - CB box, j-box, toggle switch box, box with fuses, etc. - to be clear). I was resisting it, despite the repeated prompts I was given to go in there. Why would I ever do that here when we know all the CBs and understand what they control.

Spoke with multiple techs today on the phone - each asserted that as long as the breakers were off, I could put the sealed light back into the niche, and if we want to keep all power from it off, then leaving the Lite CB off, and, if desired, removing the transformer fuses would be enough.

Flown many, many miles from overseas to be with family in the US this week. Have stressed massively over this.

In short, your assertion is that everything must be tested by means of a meter, not turning off related CB, if

"You had a hot wire in the box that you thought was off."

No, with the 240 CB off, everything I would engage with is off while putting the light back in. I had no inclination to go into that particular "box" (this is specifically the box in the annotated photo, but they're all "boxes" - CB box, j-box, toggle switch box, box with fuses, etc. - to be clear). I was resisting it, despite the repeated prompts I was given to go in there. Why would I ever do that here when we know all the CBs and understand what they control.

Spoke with multiple techs today on the phone - each asserted that as long as the breakers were off, I could put the sealed light back into the niche, and if we want to keep all power from it off, then leaving the Lite CB off, and, if desired, removing the transformer fuses would be enough.

Flown many, many miles from overseas to be with family in the US this week. Have stressed massively over this.

In short, your assertion is that everything must be tested by means of a meter, not turning off related CB, if we want to be safely in the pool. Even with the transformer fuses out.

The most experienced, and oldest, electricians will never work on a circuit that they haven't verified as "dead." That takes a meter. A voltage sensor stick might work, but they are never trusted completely. I have one to check for a live circuit but always use a meter to verify its off. That's why they are old and still living with all their fingers and so am I.
Electricity is very unforgiving and it only takes once to harm or kill.

 

[Raleigh999]

The most experienced, and oldest, electricians will never work on a circuit that they haven't verified as "dead." That takes a meter. A voltage sensor stick might work, but they are never trusted completely. I have one to check for a live circuit but always use a meter to verify its off. That's why they are old and still living with all their fingers and so am I.
Electricity is very unforgiving and it only takes once to harm or kill.

I'm not touching the circuit in that control box, and never touched anything but the the 12V light receptacle and its in-deck j-box with a meter, knowing the risk in those locations was only low-voltage. And we know it's 12V for multiple and sufficient reasons (the transformers' markings, the 12V marking printed on the bulb, the fact that we know it worked for years as a 12V system), so I don't see the risk there. Two years ago, when the service tech came to change that 12V, 300W incandescent, he turned the CBs off and did the bulb change on the deck. That's all. Does what you say therefore not suggest that it should've been standard protocol for him to use a meter to confirm everything before doing his professional light replacement? Does that make sense?? I am not going into that control box and touching any circuit. Light was reinstalled today with CBs off, fuses out, and the light sealed.

So what is the risk level now, if any, on that low-voltage system for pool users if we leave it as is, as we intend to – Lite CB off, transformer fuses out, toggle off?

 

[rstarke]

Hey Raleigh999,
there is no need to stress over this so much. Everybody here is only trying to help you. Nobody tells you to do anything. But if you ask a question on this forum you'll talk with people who worked with pools and in this case circuits for a considerable time of their life. Of course they will give you the very precise and correct way to handle things. Heck most of them will guide you through everything step by step. But that does not mean you have to follow their advice if it seems excessive or impractical for you! If you verified with other people and are sure yourself that everything is safe then that's ok. No reason to keep arguing.

That being said, if you leave the circuit intact except for the fuses make sure to label the switches and breakers with red marker saying "DO NOT USE" or similar. It's easy to forget something or have someone else fiddle around. This way it's clear that those are not to be meddled with.