Underground Suction Leak

[Litlat]

Hello Folks,

I believe we have an underground suction leak somewhere between the skimmer basket and the pump. I'll describe what I've done to determine that and post some pictures. Please jump in if I am headed down the wrong path. Thank you in advance. And now the backstory...

I replaced all the above ground "O" rings in the various pieces of equipment and still had lots of air bubbles in the pump basket. I ran a garden hose over all the fittings and "O" rings to see if that would help. It didn't, but besides the air bubbles in the basket pump everything was functioning properly. The following morning, the pump automatically shutdown shortly after startup when prime wasn't achieved. I reset the pump and re-started the motor. After a few minutes I could see that it wasn't going to prime so I shut it down. I pulled the in-pool skimmer basket out, removed the cover plate and shoved a garden hose (fully on) down the inlet hole, re-started the motor and no luck. She wouldn't prime. Turned the motor off, pulled the hose out and re-configured the valves to isolate the pool skimmer out of the system. So now (I think) the pump will only get it's water from the spa. I turn the motor on, it primes right away and only one small air bubble in the pump basket. Success!
I switch the valves back to the pool while everything is running and it holds, except for a lot of air bubbles. Next morning same problem at start up. I switch the valves to the spa everything works great.
Now the questions...before I start digging everything up.
Does this mean we have an underground suction leak somewhere between the skimmer and the pool pump?
If yes, should I expect to find underground a "Y" coupler where the pipe from the pool skimmer connects to the pipe from the spa and only one pipe runs to the pump, or do pool builders run two separate pipes (one for the spa and one for the pool)? My thought is if it's just one pipe I'll replace all the pipe from the spa to the skimmer and be done with it.
Is there an easier way to fix this without digging everything up?
Thanks,
Mike

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!

First, check that the weir door is freely moving in your skimmer. Also check your water level. Also, check under the skimmer basket, I suspect your main drain is plumbed to that basket. Do you have the diverter device under the basket?

The spa and pool suction are separate lines. You show them in your first two pictures. The automated valves switches between spa or pool.

 

[Litlat]

Welcome to the forum!

First, check that the weir door is freely moving in your skimmer. Also check your water level. Also, check under the skimmer basket, I suspect your main drain is plumbed to that basket. Do you have the diverter device under the basket?

The spa and pool suction are separate lines. You show them in your first two pictures. The automated valves switches between spa or pool.

Thank you for the quick response. Yes, the weir door is moving freely and the water level is on the high side. I wouldn't call it a diverter ,per se, it's more of a cover. There are two inlet pipes then this cover goes over that then the basket on top of that.
Thanks

 

[Litlat]

I'll be away from my computer for a few hours while I help a relative.
Thanks

 

[Litlat]

A belated "Thank You" for the warm welcome Mr. Knauss.
When you mentioned you suspect my drain is plumbed to my basket, do you think the problem might be there? We have two drains about 8' apart on the bottom.
Thanks,
Mike

btw- the earthquake that happened on Friday was about 200 miles from us, but it did cause a fair amount of turbulence in the pool water. I wonder if the pipe was ready to go and the earthquake finished the job?

 

[mknauss]

If you do not have a valve at the pad to control your main drain, then it is plumbed into one of the skimmers. I would check the diverter to be sure it is set to let the skimmer supply the most water.

There is the chance the earthquake did damage a line. Normally, it is very rare to have suction side leak underground.

 

[ajw22]

If yes, should I expect to find underground a "Y" coupler where the pipe from the pool skimmer connects to the pipe from the spa and only one pipe runs to the pump, or do pool builders run two separate pipes (one for the spa and one for the pool)?

Mike, the Y where the pool suction and spa suction come together into the pump is on your equipment pad at the automated valve.

See the circled area in the pic below. That one pool suction pipe connects to any skimmers and main drain you have in the pool.

You have a bunch of joints between the left side of the valve and where it goes into the ground. I would wrap saran wrap around those joints and see if the bubbles reduce or the wrap gets sucked into an area.

 

[mikegmi2]

Yes, I would do what ajw said...you can also get something that will make a lot of smoke and let the smoke drift by the joints and look to see if it gets sucked in anywhere...or run water over the joints and see if that stops the air bubbles. I went through all these steps over the past week, and have now moved on to doing some light digging to see if I can find my air leak. Best of luck.

 

[Litlat]

If you do not have a valve at the pad to control your main drain, then it is plumbed into one of the skimmers. I would check the diverter to be sure it is set to let the skimmer supply the most water.

There is the chance the earthquake did damage a line. Normally, it is very rare to have suction side leak underground.

Ok. I'll double check the diverter. Thank you.

 

[Litlat]

Mike, the Y where the pool suction and spa suction come together into the pump is on your equipment pad at the automated valve.

See the circled area in the pic below. That one pool suction pipe connects to any skimmers and main drain you have in the pool.

You have a bunch of joints between the left side of the valve and where it goes into the ground. I would wrap saran wrap around those joints and see if the bubbles reduce or the wrap gets sucked into an area.

View attachment 110040

I'll try the Saran Wrap (or maybe the smoke since there is so many joints). Thanks AJW and Mike from Michigan.

 

[mikegmi2]

I'll try the Saran Wrap (or maybe the smoke since there is so many joints). Thanks AJW and Mike from Michigan.

Running a hose over the joints is also an easy test. Start at the bottom most joint, and work your way up. Reason you start at the bottom is because you do not want to flood a top joint, letting water run down the pipe and fixing the leak...then you would think the top joint is the problem when it was really a joint below where you are testing.

 

[Litlat]

Running a hose over the joints is also an easy test. Start at the bottom most joint, and work your way up. Reason you start at the bottom is because you do not want to flood a top joint, letting water run down the pipe and fixing the leak...then you would think the top joint is the problem when it was really a joint below where you are testing.

Thank you. Yes, I did the garden hose trick first (starting at the bottom) before I made my original post, but was unable to find a suction leak with that method. Since there is so many joints in question maybe using smoke would yield better results. Thanks again.

 

[sean.a.hyde]

I'll try the Saran Wrap (or maybe the smoke since there is so many joints). Thanks AJW and Mike from Michigan.

I found shaving cream the most effective suction side leak detector. Too much ambient wind for smoke. YMMV

 

[Litlat]

I found shaving cream the most effective suction side leak detector. Too much ambient wind for smoke. YMMV

Hey Sean,
Thanks, I'll try it.

 

[Litlat]

Update on Suction leak- 7/22/2019
Turns out there were some worn out "O" rings in the lower Jandy valve. I wish I could take credit for finding them using your methods. Unfortunately, I was unable to track it down using the garden hose or shaving cream method (I was certain it had to be underground since it developed right after the earthquake) and I ended up hiring a leak detection company. They found and fixed the problem (or at least my wife said they did because I was at work. I'll check it out myself tomorrow). Thank you to all who posted and offered their help!!!!

Best,
Mike