Unable to Airlock for Winterizing... help!

[jasong86]

I am in the process of trying to winterize my pool (midwest location) now that the season is over. During this process I wanted to test that I am able to airlock the main drain via air compressor hooked up to the pump inlet drain port and diverter valve blocking off the skimmer. After letting the air bubble up from the main drain, I set the diverter valve to block off the main drain. Unfortunately, it seems the diverter valve is not sealing well enough, and it doesn't maintain pressure to hold the airlock.

I first became suspicious of the diverter valve earlier in the season when I attempted to block off the skimmer to only use the main drain, and it started pulling air into the pump (water level was below skimmer level at the time).

I've ordered a new diverter valve assembly to swap over the guts, including the valve, but this didn't seem to resolve the issue.

Pool specifications:

• ~12,000 Gal. Inground pool
• Fiberglass walls with concrete bottom
• ~20 years old
• Main drain diverter valve is just off the ground, so replacing it would require digging and cutting.
  • There is now 1-2 screws that are stripped out on the valve body that attaches the top plate (this happened after I was swapping parts over and over, but the inability to seal was present prior to stripping these two out).

I did try to swap over the diverter valve guts to my return line to verify there was no water leaks on the pressure side.

I attempted to buy a rubber plug with blow-through valve stem to hopefully install from within the diverter valve body, but the tapered plug wouldn't clear the elliptical cutout on the inside of the diverter valve port. I found a non-tapered plug, but haven't tried one since they don't have a valve that will maintain the pressure.

Does anyone have any suggestions to save me from having to frantically dig up and cut out the diverter valve before winter?

Thanks!

 

[Mdragger88]

Let’s call a guy ….
@Newdude

 

[ajw22]

What specific diverter valve assembly did you install as a replacement?

You have a Pentair handle on the valve.

That is not a Jandy valve.

Did you install the correct diverter?

 

[Newdude]

Bring the pump inside and plug the suction/return pipes. With a gizzmo in the skimmer(s) and the pad side plugged, it will be air locked.

 

[jasong86]

Bring the pump inside and plug the suction/return pipes. With a gizzmo in the skimmer(s) and the pad side plugged, it will be air locked.

Thanks, do you think the gizzmo will maintain a good enough pressure seal? I am a little worried now that the diverter valve top plate is not being held down well enough with the stripped threads, and it might loose pressure there. I suppose I can test this by disconnecting the pump, and seeing if it holds pressure (maybe I shouldn't have returned that tapered plug so quickly).

 

[jasong86]

What specific diverter valve assembly did you install as a replacement?

You have a Pentair handle on the valve.

That is not a Jandy valve.

Did you install the correct diverter?

I purchased the whole assembly (Pentair 263028), and used the diverter valve + top plate from that in my old valve body. Are there adjustments that can be made with the fasteners on the back of the diverter valve?

If I am getting an airlock, I should be able to hear the air being released when I open the valve back right?

 

[ajw22]

This Amazon review may explain why your Pentair valve will not hold air pressure pushing from outside the valve…

 

[Newdude]

If I am getting an airlock, I should be able to hear the air being released when I open the valve back right?

Yes but you may not hear a pinhole leak if it's not perfectly sealed.

 

[jasong86]

Yes but you may not hear a pinhole leak if it's not perfectly sealed.

I did a test where I ran the air compressor, shut the valve to block the main drain pipe, and then let it sit for 2 days. When I came back and opened the valve, I didn't hear anything, so I'm assuming that's a strong indicator it wasn't holding pressure. I like the idea of removing the pump and plugging it there though, I will give that a try (although now it seems the 2" plugs are sold out locally and amazon... whoops).

Do you have any recommendations for handling the 2 stripped out threads on the valve body?

 

[jasong86]

This Amazon review may explain why your Pentair valve will not hold air pressure pushing from outside the valve…

View attachment 534695

Interesting. I'm fairly sure my old valve (and the replacement one) had a bearing surface/axle point at the lower portion of the valve.

 

[jasong86]

Bring the pump inside and plug the suction/return pipes. With a gizzmo in the skimmer(s) and the pad side plugged, it will be air locked.

I decided to pick up a 2" straight plug w/blow thru stem & valve adapter, but unfortunately the moment I went to disconnect the pump I remembered the pump union drops to ~1.75"... whoops. I guess I'll accept that as a $40 learning experience.

I did test getting an airlock again, and I seem to be able to get one. I'm just not sure if it's going to slowly bleed off pressure over winter. I also verified that when the diverter valve is set to block off the skimmer line, the suction of the pump will pull air from the line, so I think that's a sign I shouldn't trust it to maintain an airlock when I have it blocking off the main drain... thoughts?

 

[Newdude]

the suction of the pump will pull air from the line

That depends. It may be a leak or it may be that the valve can hold the water pressure but not pump suction also.

 

[jasong86]

That depends. It may be a leak or it may be that the valve can hold the water pressure but not pump suction also.

Update: I got a 1.5" (1.75" fitting) blow thru plug w/valve, and was able to remove the pump and plug the main inlet pipe to the pump. This seemed to work, but I quickly noticed that when the diverter valve is set to block off the skimmer air will leak through and bubble up out of the skimmer. The only way to maintain air in the main drain would then be to also rely on sealing off the skimmer line.

I'm on the fence with how to proceed, I'm not certain it's wise to plug the threaded line at the bottom of the skimmer and rely on loading the threads with the air pressure. I worry about damaging the skimmer in some way, and/or not being able to rely on sealing at the threads all winter.

This is leading me to believe my safest course of action is to cut out and replace the diverter valve... or maybe I am being paranoid.

 

[Newdude]

I'm not certain it's wise to plug the threaded line at the bottom of the skimmer and rely on loading the threads with the air pressure.

Schedule 40 is pressure rated between something like 200 and 250 psi depending on temperature. You'll have a tiny fraction of that applying pressure when done properly. So gizzmo/plug the skimmer without concern.

What PSI are you using with the compressor ? You want volume not pressure. That could be part of the problem if you're hitting the diverter valve with 150 psi.

 

[jasong86]

Schedule 40 is pressure rated between something like 200 and 250 psi depending on temperature. You'll have a tiny fraction of that applying pressure when done properly. So gizzmo/plug the skimmer without concern.

What PSI are you using with the compressor ? You want volume not pressure. That could be part of the problem if you're hitting the diverter valve with 150 psi.

Good point. I may wrap the gizzmo threads with teflon tape to see if I can get a better seal. If not, I have a couple spare rubber plugs that may fit, and maybe a threaded plug to try as well.

I've been using a pancake style air compressor set to <20psi. I know my pool documents from the original pool manufacture mentioned not applying too high of pressure as it may open the hydrostatic relief valve, so I'm trying to be careful. Now I'm second guessing myself that I'm getting enough volume of air, but I am able to get a steady amount of air bubbles from the main drain with it.

I'm starting to think I might opt to have the valve replaced for peace of mind, but I may be waiting a bit (and spending a bit) based on my last call with the pool store.

If I replace the valve, would there be any downsides to installing the new diverter valve with threaded slip unions to allow for easier replacements in the future?

Thanks again for the suggestions.

 

[Newdude]

Now I'm second guessing myself that I'm getting enough volume of air, but I am able to get a steady amount of air bubbles from the main drain with it.

Ok GREAT. Bubbles means you're clearing the line and have no concerns at 20 psi.

If I replace the valve, would there be any downsides to installing the new diverter valve with threaded slip unions to allow for easier replacements in the future?

Unions always make future swaps easier. But most just replace the guts of rebuildable valves. Its the reason everyone goes with them in the first place.

 

[jasong86]

Ok GREAT. Bubbles means you're clearing the line and have no concerns at 20 psi.

Unions always make future swaps easier. But most just replace the guts of rebuildable valves. Its the reason everyone goes with them in the first place.

I was a little preoccupied with health and work, so decided to call the company that put the pool in ~20yrs ago to replace the valve assembly. I'm not pleased with how things lined up, but wanted to ask here if I'm just being too OCD.

1) The valve and portion that was cut out is around where the cut was taken, everything else up to the pump and after was existing. I saw the inlet pipe appeared to have some "bowing" or deflection to it. I went to turn on the pump, and immediately I could tell it was pulling in air at the pump union fitting.



2) I unthreaded the pump union, and it became apparent the inlet piping no longer lined up well with the pump fitting. Previously, these were nearly perfectly aligned at the pump outlet and inlet. If some force is applied to the inlet pipe it will get closer to lining up, and then the union can be threaded. I tightened the union with a rubber strap wrench, and was able to get enough of a seal that it wouldn't pull air in when pump was at max RPM.



3) In order for the union to line up, the inlet pipe and valve fitting all have to deflect a small amount to take up the difference. This also results in taking some weight off the inlet end of the pump, so it slightly "floats" on that end. I'm not sure I can get a shim in there, or if it's really needed. Anecdotally, I do feel like there's maybe a chance for more vibrations in the system since the front end of the pump is now partially supported by the piping.

I suspect I will be told this was what could be done with it being a retrofit, and if I want better I'd have to pay for full re-piping.

 

[Newdude]

I suspect I will be told this was what could be done with it being a retrofit,

There is no excuse for sloppy work. The pipe between the pump and MPV is too long so the pump no longer lines up.

They can add a couple 30s/45s to the pipe before the pump to make it line up.

I'd make them come fix it.

 

[jasong86]

There is no excuse for sloppy work. The pipe between the pump and MPV is too long so the pump no longer lines up.

They can add a couple 30s/45s to the pipe before the pump to make it line up.

I'd make them come fix it.

Thanks for reassuring I’m not being too OCD. They said they’d call me back Monday, but I suspect they’ll say it was as good as it would be for a retrofit and I’d need to pay more for all new plumbing if I wanted it better.

What are the 30s/45s for the uninformed?

I decided to go ahead winterize everything since we’re about to have below freezing temperatures here, so if I have them redo anything I guess I wasted a few gallons of antifreeze and half a day.

I haven gotten the bill yet either, so I’m afraid if I’m difficult the price will go up.

 

[Newdude]

What are the 30s/45s for the uninformed?

You can shift the pipe over, either a little, or a lot by twisting the connections. It kinda makes a corkscrew over to where you need it to be.

I decided to go ahead winterize everything since we’re about to have below freezing temperatures here, so if I have them redo anything I guess I wasted a few gallons of antifreeze and half a day.

They can fix that pipe without messing anything else up.