Troubleshooting noisy Hayward pump

[mas985]

You might what to take it apart again, just the 4 outer bolts on the motor plate (don't remove the motor from the motor plate), to see if there is any scraping on the inside of the diffuser or volute.

I ended up having to remove the motor and front bell in order to reattach the little bracket that stabilizes the drive shaft.

Are you talking about the seal:

If you put the seal in backwards, that could cause some issues. The smaller piece on the left goes into the motor plate.

 

[Greenhound386]

You might what to take it apart again, just the 4 outer bolts on the motor plate (don't remove the motor from the motor plate), to see if there is any scraping on the inside of the diffuser or volute.



Are you talking about the seal:

If you put the seal in backwards, that could cause some issues.

Yep! Those are the seals I replaced. Fairly confident I got them installed in the correct orientation. I was very diligent with that part of the process. Also changed out the various o-rings internally and got them lubed.

Update: I think I found the air leak, but I'm back to square one on the motor noise.

I removed the entire pump assembly from the 2 unions that join it to the plumbing. Inspected the o-rings, lubed them up (these didn't get lubed when I put everything back together last time), and then I carefully aligned everything and hand-tightened. This had an immediate effect: the pump basket filled entirely with water, and when I turned off the pump, the full level of water remained in the basket. Previously, the basket was draining all of the water in it when I would turn off the pump, and that was with the lid staying on. I got super excited and thought I was good. But, when I turned the pump back on: the noise came back.

Here's a video demonstrating the issue:

Again, if I remove the basket lid, let the air purge, and then put the lid back on and restart the filter, it will operate totally normally. Once it turns off, it goes back to being noisy when it comes back on unless I remove the basket lid first.

I don't understand why the pump will be running perfectly, and within the span of 20 seconds by just turning it on and off, it reverts back to being noisy. I don't mind pulling the pump apart again to double-check everything, but I don't know what to look for since the pump does have the ability to run quietly. It makes me think there's an external factor at play that I just can't figure out.

I've got a message out to a local service provider to come help, and I'll at least be able to give him some context and direciton about what's already been done. Still open to suggestions, though!

 

[mas985]

Still much louder than it should be.

Can you tell if the noise is coming from the back end of the motor? There is fan back there that could be rubbing on something.

 

[Greenhound386]

Hard to tell where the noise is coming from exactly, but definitely the rear of the unit. The fan cover does have a tiny little rattle and is contributing to the overall noise, but not significantly. I can put my hand on the cover to stop the noise.

The bearings are the only thing I didn't replace in the motor, but I feel like if they were the issue, they'd always be making noise. I can't figure out why the pump only runs well once the basket lid has been removed to purge air.

 

[mas985]

Hard to tell where the noise is coming from exactly, but definitely the rear of the unit. The fan cover does have a tiny little rattle and is contributing to the overall noise, but not significantly. I can put my hand on the cover to stop the noise.'

Maybe remove the fan shroud and see if there is any debris in there.

The bearings are the only thing I didn't replace in the motor, but I feel like if they were the issue, they'd always be making noise.

I agree. Also to me, it doesn't sound like bad bearings.

I can't figure out why the pump only runs well once the basket lid has been removed to purge air.

Could be just the movement of the pump housing is enough to shift whatever is interfering.

 

[1poolman1]

Hard to tell where the noise is coming from exactly, but definitely the rear of the unit. The fan cover does have a tiny little rattle and is contributing to the overall noise, but not significantly. I can put my hand on the cover to stop the noise.

The bearings are the only thing I didn't replace in the motor, but I feel like if they were the issue, they'd always be making noise. I can't figure out why the pump only runs well once the basket lid has been removed to purge air.

With that much corrosion in the front end-bell of the motor, it definitely has bearing damage to that front bearing. In the video from yesterday there is bearing noise to be heard. It is especially apparent in the rattle that occurs when the pump is turned off. Once the load of moving water is gone the looseness in the bearing causes that rattle/noise. The bearing noise will get worse, until it is replaced. Also, the pump lid is on backwards.

 

[Greenhound386]

With that much corrosion in the front end-bell of the motor, it definitely has bearing damage to that front bearing. In the video from yesterday there is bearing noise to be heard. It is especially apparent in the rattle that occurs when the pump is turned off. Once the load of moving water is gone the looseness in the bearing causes that rattle/noise. The bearing noise will get worse, until it is replaced. Also, the pump lid is on backwards.

I'm gonna take everything apart again and will replace the bearings. I wish I had the bearings on-hand last week when I did the seals. I wasn't originally planning on breaking the pump that far apart, but I ended up doing it anyway. Would have been easy to just replace the bearings at that point. Doh!

Good call on the lid. I figured the orientation didn't make a difference, but I fixed it so that the ears are perpedicular to the pump.

 

[1poolman1]

I'm gonna take everything apart again and will replace the bearings. I wish I had the bearings on-hand last week when I did the seals. I wasn't originally planning on breaking the pump that far apart, but I ended up doing it anyway. Would have been easy to just replace the bearings at that point. Doh!

Good call on the lid. I figured the orientation didn't make a difference, but I fixed it so that the ears are perpedicular to the pump.

You can use a piece of 3/4" Schedule 40 PVC pipe (I prefer the PVC), or 3/4" iron pipe to drive the new bearing onto the shaft. Be sure to only drive the inner race, never on the outer or the new bearing will be damaged.
I have never been sure why that lid has a "FRONT" label, but if the manufacturer says so, I do it.

 

[wireform]

I also think the bearings are contributing to the noise sending vibration throughout as they're not completely shot but definitely on their way. Did you check if the impeller has scraping marks where it protrudes into the diffuser. Also check the following: I've see more then once where a small stone gets lodged in the outer grooves of the impeller and throws it out of balance. You can also run the impeller on the motor and visually check if it somehow is warped a little.

 

[Greenhound386]

Bearings ordered, and I should have them in-hand and installed on either Thursday or Friday. I'll report back with an update! They're cheap and easy to replace, and it would be helpful to take the pump apart again anyway and double-check everything really closely.

The only thing that makes me skeptical that it's the bearings is why the sound is so random, and more significantly, why am I able to make it go away temporarily by simply removing the pump lid!?

@wireform I will check the impeller again when I get it apart. I didn't see anything remarkable when I looked at it last week.

 

[Greenhound386]

How critical is the water slinger on the shaft? That particular seal showed a tiny bit of wear on it, and I didn't replace it. Seems like it's a check-and-balance if there's a shaft seal leak.

 

[mas985]

Hopefully you got inverter duty bearings since that is a VS pump. Otherwise, they won't last very long. Few pool stores actually sell them because they are a special order item.

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You have a bearing puller right?

Also, it would be a good idea to replace the seal if replacing the bearings. If the seal was leaking, that could explain the bearing failure if that is indeed what happened.

 

[1poolman1]

How critical is the water slinger on the shaft? That particular seal showed a tiny bit of wear on it, and I didn't replace it. Seems like it's a check-and-balance if there's a shaft seal leak.

Water slinger helps with the small amount of water that actually weeps past a pump seal all the time. They are not a 100% seal, but a small amount of water gets between the two parts to help lubricate it while running. When the pump is off, capillary action allows water to get past the seal and flow up the shaft. That is why any pump that is below water level, as in an above ground spa or pool, should be run regularly if there is water in the vessel or it should be drained. Ones that aren't run for several months, can many times, have "unexplained" bearing failure the next time it is started.

 

[Greenhound386]

Hopefully you got inverter duty bearings since that is a VS pump. Otherwise, they won't last very long. Few pool stores actually sell them because they are a special order item.

How Do VFDs Cause Bearing Damage?

How variable frequency drives cause electrical bearing damage, explained as simply but accurately as possible.

blog.est-aegis.com

PSC Ep. 64: Can I replace bearings on a variable speed pump motor?

In today’s episode of Poolside Chat, Rob and Matt tackle another common swimming pool question: Can I replace bearings on a variable speed pump motor? "Is it possible to replace bearings on a variable speed pool pump motor? If so, is it more difficult than a traditional motor?" To answer the...

www.inyopools.com

You have a bearing puller right?

Also, it would be a good idea to replace the seal if replacing the bearings. If the seal was leaking, that could explain the bearing failure if that is indeed what happened.

I do have a bearing puller.

I ordered the following bearings: 6204-2RS and 6203-2RSC3.

The seals were all replaced last week via the SPXHKit100 kit (Housing O-Ring, Strainer Cover O-Ring, Diffuser O-Ring, Shaft Seal Assembly, and Jack's Lube).

 

[mas985]

Are those numbers the same as what is stamped on the original bearings?

 

[Greenhound386]

Are those numbers the same as what is stamped on the original bearings?

We'll find out, and if not, I'll lose a day reordering different ones. Those were the bearing numbers that another member listed for the same motor when they did their replacement.

 

[wireform]

Those numbers look like ordinary bearing numbers and not sure they are of the inverter duty bearing verity.

 

[Greenhound386]

Those numbers look like ordinary bearing numbers and not sure they are of the inverter duty bearing verity.

I'm not finding anything under 'inverter duty bearings' or an equivalent search term. How does that reflect in the bearing naming convention?

 

[mas985]

I'm not finding anything under 'inverter duty bearings' or an equivalent search term. How does that reflect in the bearing naming convention?

You probably won't. I believe that is one of the reasons why Inyo recommends a professional motor shop for VS motors.

I know some members have used standard bearings in a VS pump and that is there choice and may work out fine for them for at least a little while. If operated on low speed most of the time, some of the issues of using standard bearings in a VS motor may diminish.

 

[mas985]

I probably should have used the term insulated bearings rather than inverter duty since that is what the industry seems to use more often.

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But I would check the original bearings for an exact match.