Welcome to TFP!!!Please review the instructions on the product if you have any hope for it working. If you raise the FC up more, it may be too high and kill the enzymes.
Thoughts on bio-active cya reducer
- Thread starter X-PertPool
- Start date
Welcome to TFP!!!Please review the instructions on the product if you have any hope for it working. If you raise the FC up more, it may be too high and kill the enzymes.
Poolmath is showing adding that much chlorine will raise your FC to 9. If you already added it you'll need to wait until your chlorine is at least down to 3ppm. No one has reported algae growth while treating with bioactive so as long as you keep your chlorine low (don't add any) you shouldn't have an algae issue during treatment.
Re: thoughts on bio-active cya reducer
I am going to try it this week. Just bought a house and inherited a CYA of 240ppm. I am in California so draining pool is out of the question. I am praying this will work. I will let you all know
I am going to try it this week. Just bought a house and inherited a CYA of 240ppm. I am in California so draining pool is out of the question. I am praying this will work. I will let you all know
I was hopeful on this product because i too live in California and don't want to drain my pool. I just got a notice in the mail for mandatory water reduction and was given a maximum water allotment of 16ccf or 12k gallons for 2 months April and May. My CYA is at about 250pm and i've been fighting with an algae bloom for weeks now and was really hoping this could solve my problem. I may just need buy a few of these these bags and a slight 25% partial water replacement to back to normal. I'll shower at the gym, eat on paper plates, and forego my lawn for the summer (Going to paint it green with bio paint 
) to get a manageable pool with my allotments of water. The fines are not too bad yet, but they will escalate based on how many times you go over.:ncool:
) to get a manageable pool with my allotments of water. The fines are not too bad yet, but they will escalate based on how many times you go over.:ncool:Well, it looks like I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum! 27K gal pool, CYA was about 150, using chlorine bleach, struggling to keep FC levels up adding 1 gal/day, pump running 24 hrs/day at 28 GPM. All other chem levels are in the slot.
I used an 8 oz. pack of the Bio-Active, 1 day later my CYA was 0!! Dang, this stuff works better than I hoped. Adding 2 gal bleach/day and a chlorine puck floater trying to stay sanitized. 4 days later, starting to see a little CYA show up (about 20).
Gonna call the folks that make this stuff and see what I can expect in a week. With proper management this might be the missing ingredient in managing my pool!
I used an 8 oz. pack of the Bio-Active, 1 day later my CYA was 0!! Dang, this stuff works better than I hoped. Adding 2 gal bleach/day and a chlorine puck floater trying to stay sanitized. 4 days later, starting to see a little CYA show up (about 20).
Gonna call the folks that make this stuff and see what I can expect in a week. With proper management this might be the missing ingredient in managing my pool!
And not only that ... to add 20ppm of CYA with trichlor tablets would require fully dissolving 16 of the 8oz tablets ... highly doubt that could be done in 4 days.
150 ppm CYA in 27,000 gallons is 34 lbs of CYA. 8 oz of bioactive is more than 95% dextrose and only about a gram of bacteria. The weight of cyanuric acid is 15,000 times the weight of the bacteria.
If bacteria really could consume and digest 15,000 times their weight in CYA, they should make a movie about it.
If bacteria really could consume and digest 15,000 times their weight in CYA, they should make a movie about it.
I may add that Judge Judy quote to my sig line.
I'm sorry shooter57, if you put out information like that on this forum, it will be challenged with facts.
I'm sorry shooter57, if you put out information like that on this forum, it will be challenged with facts.
- Sep 23, 2015
- 2,016
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron V25
Bacteria reproduce by fission into two daughter cells, sometimes in as little as 20 minutes. Allowing for an initial lag phase of 4 hours and a 30min doubling time that's 1gms - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 etc. etc. - 32,768gms (72lbs) of bacteria in 12 hours. Or 249,889,006,312,727lbs in 24 hours. Of cause that level of reproduction will never occur but it does make the story more plausible.
- Sep 23, 2015
- 2,016
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron V25
I would think that you would need quite a substantial amount of growth in order for this to work, the figures just don't add up otherwise. Microbial growth is measured more as population growth rather than individual cell growth. CYA provides both a carbon and nitrogen source for the bacteria, it provides carbon for growth and an energy source.
The theoretical growth is never achievable and in this case as the level of nutrient, CYA, decreases so would the growth rate which is why you would never truly get an overall concentration throughout the pool at zero but it could still be possible to get a sample with a zero concentration near an area of high activity.
When it comes to microbes there are just too many variables to be certain of anything, the microbes don't read books and forums like we do. I had read about microbial applications for cleaning up oil spills, in the labs initial testing was very promising but it failed in the field. I think the microbial processing of CYA has merit for some but doubt any two applications will have the same outcome.
The theoretical growth is never achievable and in this case as the level of nutrient, CYA, decreases so would the growth rate which is why you would never truly get an overall concentration throughout the pool at zero but it could still be possible to get a sample with a zero concentration near an area of high activity.
When it comes to microbes there are just too many variables to be certain of anything, the microbes don't read books and forums like we do. I had read about microbial applications for cleaning up oil spills, in the labs initial testing was very promising but it failed in the field. I think the microbial processing of CYA has merit for some but doubt any two applications will have the same outcome.
Dang - sorry I wasn't here to defend my results. I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but have made a living observing and trying to make sense of things. I'm simply reporting my observations, make of them what you will.
The 20 ppm of CYA seems to have been a flash in the pan, I agree that floating a stack of pucks for a little while would have little effect. But 1 1/2 weeks later my CYA is still at 0. Yes, still 0, and for whatever reason that result was realized overnight. If this is impossible, and I believe you folks know enough to claim that with authority, can you help me understand why performing the same test 1 day apart with the same kit and chemicals yields such drastically different results?
I'm a little frustrated that it went that low, product info says it should only drop to about 30-50 as I recall.
I don't have a stake in this product, but am happy to have an alternative available that prevents from from draining and refilling due to CYA buildup. Gonna give it another few days and try to start building up my CYA to around 40.
Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
The 20 ppm of CYA seems to have been a flash in the pan, I agree that floating a stack of pucks for a little while would have little effect. But 1 1/2 weeks later my CYA is still at 0. Yes, still 0, and for whatever reason that result was realized overnight. If this is impossible, and I believe you folks know enough to claim that with authority, can you help me understand why performing the same test 1 day apart with the same kit and chemicals yields such drastically different results?
I'm a little frustrated that it went that low, product info says it should only drop to about 30-50 as I recall.
I don't have a stake in this product, but am happy to have an alternative available that prevents from from draining and refilling due to CYA buildup. Gonna give it another few days and try to start building up my CYA to around 40.
Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
What are your FC and CC levels? Wonder if some magic stew happened that converted your CYA to ammonia very quickly.
Although I've been putting between 1-2 gals of liquid chlorine in the pool per day, my FC level is 0.5 ppm and the CC is at .25 ppm. Weak, I know, but I'm chalking it up to the non-existent stabilizer.
- Sep 23, 2015
- 2,016
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron V25
I not sure I would go with a magic stew, isn't magic misdirection.
There's a couple of things that could be going on here shooter. Firstly the testing method and variation. It's always a possibility and the CYA test is quite subjective. If you could get a CYA standard solution to verify your test it would add confidence.
Secondly we're talking about the enzymatic or microbial conversion of CYA, and with all things microbial there's no guarantees, every application will have a unique set of environmental conditions that will a ultimately affect the outcome in a multitude of different ways. Looking at the patent and safety data sheet a lot of money has been invested in this product.
The patent and safety data sheet indicate that the product is 0.1 - 1.0% viable cultures of Bacillus sp. Bacillus sp. are endospore forming but endospores are normally formed due to low nutrient levels, these cultures were freeze dried and ground to 100 micron which is designed to release cellular enzymes. B. subtilises are rod shaped at 4 -10 micron long X 0.25 - 1 micron in diameter so it's highly likely that the grinding process does leave a considerable amount of cells intact.
It's unclear from the patent if the CYA conversion or mediation is from direct enzyme interaction or from microbial conversion or mediation, the reader is left to think it is both. Commercial preparation of bacterial enzymes feeds the aerobic fermentation process of Bacillus sp. with glycerol as a carbon source and glutamic acid as a nitrogen source so I assume CYA is being consumed or converted as a nitrogen source by the bacteria when activated or active.
I believe it is possible that you have a bacteria bloom or an active bacteria culture that will continue to consume your CYA. Now that your CYA tests at zero I would rule out the possibility of an active bacterial culture by super chlorination, slam, or maybe even a non chlorine oxidising agent to kill or sanitise it. I wouldn't be using pucks in a low rainfall, drought affected area that may have water restrictions.
There's a couple of things that could be going on here shooter. Firstly the testing method and variation. It's always a possibility and the CYA test is quite subjective. If you could get a CYA standard solution to verify your test it would add confidence.
Secondly we're talking about the enzymatic or microbial conversion of CYA, and with all things microbial there's no guarantees, every application will have a unique set of environmental conditions that will a ultimately affect the outcome in a multitude of different ways. Looking at the patent and safety data sheet a lot of money has been invested in this product.
The patent and safety data sheet indicate that the product is 0.1 - 1.0% viable cultures of Bacillus sp. Bacillus sp. are endospore forming but endospores are normally formed due to low nutrient levels, these cultures were freeze dried and ground to 100 micron which is designed to release cellular enzymes. B. subtilises are rod shaped at 4 -10 micron long X 0.25 - 1 micron in diameter so it's highly likely that the grinding process does leave a considerable amount of cells intact.
It's unclear from the patent if the CYA conversion or mediation is from direct enzyme interaction or from microbial conversion or mediation, the reader is left to think it is both. Commercial preparation of bacterial enzymes feeds the aerobic fermentation process of Bacillus sp. with glycerol as a carbon source and glutamic acid as a nitrogen source so I assume CYA is being consumed or converted as a nitrogen source by the bacteria when activated or active.
I believe it is possible that you have a bacteria bloom or an active bacteria culture that will continue to consume your CYA. Now that your CYA tests at zero I would rule out the possibility of an active bacterial culture by super chlorination, slam, or maybe even a non chlorine oxidising agent to kill or sanitise it. I wouldn't be using pucks in a low rainfall, drought affected area that may have water restrictions.
Thanks AU. Lots to consider there.
Is there any (convenient?) way of checking for bacteria? Or would doing a super-chlorination based on suspicion just be easier? What would you recommend for a 27Kgal pool?
I appreciate the assist, and hope you're esky remains full of stubbies even into your winter ;]
Is there any (convenient?) way of checking for bacteria? Or would doing a super-chlorination based on suspicion just be easier? What would you recommend for a 27Kgal pool?
I appreciate the assist, and hope you're esky remains full of stubbies even into your winter ;]
