Thanks for the info. Lots to consider. Don't know where I would be without the info from this forum! Oh yeah, paying $150/mo lol
Thoughts on bio-active cya reducer
- Thread starter X-PertPool
- Start date
Just joined the group, but I wanted to share my results from using Bio-Active.
Background: I bought my house in Oct 2015. 14,500gal pool, pebble tech surface, It had a CYA level of 156. They told me not to worry about it, use liquid chlorine over the winter and the levels will go down on their own with the rains.
Being a new pool own, I was think Ok. I did a bit of research and found Bio-Active as a possible solution. I wanted to see if 'Nature would take care of it' well we had slightly wetter the usual (but not too wet) winter, and it did drop some, down to 136, by the beginning of April. Water temps where coming up, and I wanted the CYA down, so I bought an 8oz bag on amazon (Water Temp in the 70-75F range, Ph 7.4-7.6 range, Ch kept between 1.0 and 2.0 with liquid chlorine, no tablets, no clarifier, no fusion cartridge installed...)
After 10 days, it dropped from 136 to 133. I contacted Biowish about it, and got no response after two weeks, other than they would get back to me shortly. So it was time to write a review on Amazon I posted my results. They promptly contacted me after this, offered to send out their commercial sized bag of Bio-active (16oz) which I tried. I provided them all my chem levels, temps, etc and followed their instructions to a T. The results, where no significant changes after another 2 weeks. So I decided to move forward and forget about Bio-active. I will say that the CYA went down a little over the summer, not sure if it was residual Bio-active in the pool or not, because we didn't have rain, and I was using Trichlor tabs (35lbs worth from May-Sept end) it was at 120ppm at end of Sept. after that I went back to liquid chlorine over the winter, which was record breaking in terms of rain, and had the pool overflow a couple of times before I bought a submersible pump to pump it down a bit when raining (no backwasher, no output plumbing switch to drain) but it did manage to get the CYA down to around 80ppm.
Now comes in the question, there's been speculation that the Bio-active can stick around for along while and keep eating the CYA slowly instead of fast. Did this happen to mine over the summer? I don't know, there may have been some impact from that, but after effectively 3x what's required for a 25,000gal pool (8oz bag is supposed to treat up to a 25,000gal pool) in a 14,500gal sized pool. And the expectation of significant reductions in CYA within days, it definitely did not work as advertised for me personally.
There are a number of success stories, and I'm happy for them. I don't think Biowish has figured out what the difference is that makes it work great for some, but fail miserably for others.
Background: I bought my house in Oct 2015. 14,500gal pool, pebble tech surface, It had a CYA level of 156. They told me not to worry about it, use liquid chlorine over the winter and the levels will go down on their own with the rains.
Being a new pool own, I was think Ok. I did a bit of research and found Bio-Active as a possible solution. I wanted to see if 'Nature would take care of it' well we had slightly wetter the usual (but not too wet) winter, and it did drop some, down to 136, by the beginning of April. Water temps where coming up, and I wanted the CYA down, so I bought an 8oz bag on amazon (Water Temp in the 70-75F range, Ph 7.4-7.6 range, Ch kept between 1.0 and 2.0 with liquid chlorine, no tablets, no clarifier, no fusion cartridge installed...)
After 10 days, it dropped from 136 to 133. I contacted Biowish about it, and got no response after two weeks, other than they would get back to me shortly. So it was time to write a review on Amazon I posted my results. They promptly contacted me after this, offered to send out their commercial sized bag of Bio-active (16oz) which I tried. I provided them all my chem levels, temps, etc and followed their instructions to a T. The results, where no significant changes after another 2 weeks. So I decided to move forward and forget about Bio-active. I will say that the CYA went down a little over the summer, not sure if it was residual Bio-active in the pool or not, because we didn't have rain, and I was using Trichlor tabs (35lbs worth from May-Sept end) it was at 120ppm at end of Sept. after that I went back to liquid chlorine over the winter, which was record breaking in terms of rain, and had the pool overflow a couple of times before I bought a submersible pump to pump it down a bit when raining (no backwasher, no output plumbing switch to drain) but it did manage to get the CYA down to around 80ppm.
Now comes in the question, there's been speculation that the Bio-active can stick around for along while and keep eating the CYA slowly instead of fast. Did this happen to mine over the summer? I don't know, there may have been some impact from that, but after effectively 3x what's required for a 25,000gal pool (8oz bag is supposed to treat up to a 25,000gal pool) in a 14,500gal sized pool. And the expectation of significant reductions in CYA within days, it definitely did not work as advertised for me personally.
There are a number of success stories, and I'm happy for them. I don't think Biowish has figured out what the difference is that makes it work great for some, but fail miserably for others.
Welcome to TFP!
No, bioactive cannot stay in the pool over time. It is a bacteria based product and the #1 job of chlorine in a pool is to kill bacteria so we don't get sick. In fact, I question whether it would be effective with FC 1-2. I would think that FC would need to be 0 for the bacteria not to be killed within an hour. Pools lose 3-5 ppm of CYA per month through normal attrition.
No, bioactive cannot stay in the pool over time. It is a bacteria based product and the #1 job of chlorine in a pool is to kill bacteria so we don't get sick. In fact, I question whether it would be effective with FC 1-2. I would think that FC would need to be 0 for the bacteria not to be killed within an hour. Pools lose 3-5 ppm of CYA per month through normal attrition.
CYA was 133 in May. Added 35 lbs (560 oz) trichlor May to Sept. PoolMath says that should have raised FC by 267 ppm and raised CYA by 162 ppm. In Sept CYA was 120. By math CYA should have been approx. 133 + 162 - 20 (3-5 ppm/mo) = 275. Assuming 5 months or 150 days, FC added was approx. 1.75 ppm per day. So how do you account for that?
Are you suggesting that the bioactive bacteria has survived in a pool with a constant FC, slowly feeding upon CYA and even breeding? I rather think the fact that the CYA numbers clearly come from an unreliable source (digital test, likely from a pool store) is a far more plausible explanation for any odd numbers.
What are you using to test above 100 on CYA? The limit of the Taylor CYA test is 100.
- Sep 23, 2015
- 1,584
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron V25
TAZ, your results are similar to many others that have tried the bioactive and no, I don't think its possible for any live cultures to survive in a properly chlorinated pool.
From the very beginning most of us including myself have assumed that there are live bacteria or microbes involved which is not surprising given the MSDS, patent and product literature states that the product is 0.1 - 1.0% of 'viable cultures' of, among others, Bacillus sp.. But the front label lists a prime attribute as 'Advanced biocatalist technology'. So what is it, live cultures or a biocatalist? The product literature says its 99.1% dextrose.
http://www.solarsunrings.com/bioactivenow/resources/BA-CAR Booklet v1_3.pdf
The patent gives a manufacture process as bacterial cultures that are freeze dried and crushed or ground to 100 micron. There's not many live cultures that would survive freezing and desiccation. If I was after a viable culture as my end product I wouldn't be doing anything to limit or kill my cultures. I assume they are after the enzymes as indicated from the product label, the process of CYA degradation is enzyme or catalyst dependant. But given the grinding is to 100 microns and the max size of the cultured bacteria is 10 microns, and the initial cultures were not fed on a nutrient broth containing CYA I'm uncertain just how much enzyme product specific to CYA degradation they are left with. And then the user is asked to tip a tiny amount of 'active' product into a large body of chlorinated water.
MPurcell, you shouldn't be continuing with chlorinating products containing CYA if your CYA is known to be at or above 80ppm. You should switch to regular bleach.
From the very beginning most of us including myself have assumed that there are live bacteria or microbes involved which is not surprising given the MSDS, patent and product literature states that the product is 0.1 - 1.0% of 'viable cultures' of, among others, Bacillus sp.. But the front label lists a prime attribute as 'Advanced biocatalist technology'. So what is it, live cultures or a biocatalist? The product literature says its 99.1% dextrose.
http://www.solarsunrings.com/bioactivenow/resources/BA-CAR Booklet v1_3.pdf
The patent gives a manufacture process as bacterial cultures that are freeze dried and crushed or ground to 100 micron. There's not many live cultures that would survive freezing and desiccation. If I was after a viable culture as my end product I wouldn't be doing anything to limit or kill my cultures. I assume they are after the enzymes as indicated from the product label, the process of CYA degradation is enzyme or catalyst dependant. But given the grinding is to 100 microns and the max size of the cultured bacteria is 10 microns, and the initial cultures were not fed on a nutrient broth containing CYA I'm uncertain just how much enzyme product specific to CYA degradation they are left with. And then the user is asked to tip a tiny amount of 'active' product into a large body of chlorinated water.
MPurcell, you shouldn't be continuing with chlorinating products containing CYA if your CYA is known to be at or above 80ppm. You should switch to regular bleach.
Sorry for the confusion. I was actually quoting the information TAZ427 gave in post #182. I was just pointing out that the numbers didn't make any sense to me. So I guess this bit of advice should go to him.
By the way, I still don't know what accounts for this, but as previously suggested, it does seem like the CYA test results may have been misleading all along.
I wasn't sure if there was something still active or not. I'm definitely not promoting Bio-Active, but the drop in CYA didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, especially over last summer, when I was using trichlor tablets in my chlorinator.
The CYA numbers were initially from my local store, but it was what I was in the range of what I was seeing on the strip test that my wife likes to use, and my test kit didn't cover it. So I bought a Pentair CYA test kit and tried it. I had to dilute the water 2:1 and double the read numbers, but it came out around 150-160 (a bit more than 1/2 way from the 60 to 100, but it being a non-linear scale, I estimated it to be somewhere between 75 and 80.)
My Pentair test kit seems to track what my local pool company measures well.
FWIW, My local pool company never tried to sell me on Bio-Active, and said the only way to correct it is draining and refilling, but that the winter rains helps do this naturally and I should wait until spring. In the mean time, keep the chlorine levels high and use liquid chlorine, so as to not keep adding CYA.
Not trying to account for anything specifically. I'm making my observations. As for these numbers, are you suggesting that normal Tablet usage would in and of itself add more than 3x the amount of CYA and no way to get rid of it beside draining and fill? By this calculation, I should be have observed an increase of 50ppm of CYA already so far this year, which hasn't occurred.
This is what many veteran TFP thought was happening. The people posting results are getting their test results from pool stores or stripes. I wish we could be more stringent and make sure amateurs UNDERSTAND that you need a proper test kit to get the proper test results.
I am so glad to find this kind of information to make sure I'm on the right track with pool chemicals. I hired a company to clean my water (RO purification system for pools) and it did a great job crystal clear. Before my pool's cya was off the chart as was Calcium Hardness and TDS's (I never drained it since I bought the house 10 years) and in one day all my chemicals etc where in the normal range and I only lost about 2000 gals to replace that were also RO'd before entering the pool.
So now I hire a new pool service that is suppose to give me the high tech accountability that my pool is properly maintained to find in three weeks they have super chlorinated my pool with several pucks and shock each week to the point that in three weeks of their servicing my pool my cya is now 100ppm vs 45ppm and FC now at 9ppm. I am really upset with the fact that my pool is just a money maker for them while they are ruining the quality of my water and then will tell me to drain my pool and btw, we do that for $$$. I understand it's a catch 22 since they only come once a week and if you don't step up this is all you get. I have invested in the Liquidator to save my pool water from cya although I realize I will accumulate salt another undesirable component and according to the pool math here, you gain as much if not more salt as you do FC from liquid chlorine of say 10% on average. So your still contributing to TDS issues just not needing to over chlorinate like tricolor pucks will cause and very quickly in my case. I saw someone said on this forum you don't add enough salt to be significant but what does that really mean, how can that be according to these pool math numbers. And if that is so then how long before you have to clean your water from too much salt and what is that safe or max number and how do you even measure or test for that because to much salt can be harmful to your pool equipment too not to mention not really healthy either in large quantities when absorbed. I was so hoping maybe this bio stuff to rid the pool of excess cya would work but it seems contradicted here.
FYI, I saw a new method online that requires no Chlorine chemicals called Clear Comfort.com which would be great if possible. I feel like someone trying to search for the cure to cancer!
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I too had my water (25k gallons) RO'ed about a month ago. Best $500 I spent on the pool. Since then I have done nothing but add liquid chlorine. With CYA at about 40-45, I only need to keep FC at around 3. Before, I had a nasty mustard algae that kep creeping back, and since my RO and daily liquid chlorine, it has been crystal clear. I'll have the Liquidator in about a week or so, and that will help automate some of the tasks. I just need to get my Calcium up a bit, but everything is in range. Really enjoying the silky water now. I tried BioActive and that was a waste of time and money after a year of chlorinating pucks in a feeder. In about a year I went from CYA of around 70 to well over 200. We'll see in a year or so if I have nearly as many issues with the water using liq Chlorine over the past year of pucks.
clearcomfort.com seems like more trouble than liq chlorine. I have resigned myself to just buying liq chlorine and making sure it gets in my pool regularly, and possibly RO'ing or replacing my water every several years. If I was staying with pucks, I bet I'd be replacing water every two years and using more chlorine as the cya keeps getting higher and always brushing away algae. I got SO MUCH information and confidence from reading TFP.
clearcomfort.com seems like more trouble than liq chlorine. I have resigned myself to just buying liq chlorine and making sure it gets in my pool regularly, and possibly RO'ing or replacing my water every several years. If I was staying with pucks, I bet I'd be replacing water every two years and using more chlorine as the cya keeps getting higher and always brushing away algae. I got SO MUCH information and confidence from reading TFP.
So let me make sure I have your position correct. Chlorine exposure = bad. Salt exposure = bad. Fecal matter, sweat, urine, and various bacteria and virus exposure = A-OK?
To you it may feel like searching for a cure for cancer. To me it feels like listening to a person refuse cancer treatment because their herbalist told them a cleanse will wash it away.
cfherrman
TFP Guide
A horse that has beat to death is salt in pools. It's ok! All water has salt! Would take a long time to build up to swg levels! On and on......
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