There's a slow train's coming...

[ajw22]

Water is a grossly mispriced commodity in most of the USA.

 

[scdaren]

I feel bad for the pool guys -- people on Nextdoor where I am complaining like you wouldn't believe that their pool guy has had to increase his prices.

But don't get me started on the water. Where I live, there are miles and miles and miles and miles of almond orchards. I see them on my commute every day. It's really hard to swallow arguments that farmers need to the water to grow food so we don't starve when almonds are the main crop, much of which gets exported. Not only do they use tons of water - much of it groundwater that causes subsidence and can't be replaced, but they send up these massive plumes of dust into one of the worst air quality basins in the country for two months of every year during harvesting.

 

[pjt]

one of the worst air quality basins in the country for two months of every year

I used to live just south of you in Hanford. I feel your pain and don't miss living the in central valley at all.

 

[scdaren]

I used to live just south of you in Hanford. I feel your pain and don't miss living the in central valley at all.

Yeah I work in Hanford.

 

[Oly]

So many great posts
Directed my neighbor to local independent pool store before I tested his water as he is shopping for pool service. I used to buy 12.5% from them as well as filter parts they keep in stock. I often chatted water chemistry with them and was encouraged, not TFP level but better than Lesters....

Anyway I suggest he take a water sample that I pulled from his pool into them, he did and they have this digital test device they use. It has a round cartridge and reads the analysis in mere seconds. I tested CH at 500+ they test 600, I test CYA at 200+ they test at 70 , I test again today and still 200+ being precise with the dilution and test procedure. Clear to me he must drain, they advise against that citing temps, plaster risks ( I agree but can be mitigated) and that 70 CYA is high but managable (my 200+ is not) and CH at 600 is not an immediate issue (ok maybe but 2 birds one stone).

I'm walking a fine line now. I will make my case and stand behind my test results to the pool store, the new pool service and my overwhelmed neighbor, then I will stand down and let the smoke clear ... waiting for the train.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So many great posts
Directed my neighbor to local independent pool store before I tested his water as he is shopping for pool service. I used to buy 12.5% from them as well as filter parts they keep in stock. I often chatted water chemistry with them and was encouraged, not TFP level but better than Lesters....

Anyway I suggest he take a water sample that I pulled from his pool into them, he did and they have this digital test device they use. It has a round cartridge and reads the analysis in mere seconds. I tested CH at 500+ they test 600, I test CYA at 200+ they test at 70 , I test again today and still 200+ being precise with the dilution and test procedure. Clear to me he must drain, they advise against that citing temps, plaster risks ( I agree but can be mitigatrd) and that 70 CYA is high but managable (my 200+ is not) and CH at 600 is not an immediate issue (ok maybe but 2 birds one stone).

I'm walking a fine line now. I will make my case and stand behind my test results to the pool store, the new pool service and my overwhelmed neighbor, then I will stand down and let the smoke clear ... waiting for the train.

Their CYA test relies on colorimetry of cyanuric acid reacting with a pH sensitive dye. It’s the same chemistry used by test strips. Totally inaccurate above 100ppm and can have false results if the chlorine levels are too high. It’s highly likely that it is giving false readings because the CYA is so high. If you can do a 3:1 dilution and redo the test (multiply what you get for CYA by 4), then you can show him that the CYA is too high. You’re already getting 100 when you do a 1:1 dilution.

 

[duraleigh]

Time and again suggested TFP testing kits prove themselves.

I deal directly with TF-100 and TF-Pro users who believe there new, expensive TF kits must have bad reagents because of discrepancies with pool store results. When we bore down into the issues, it is the TF kits that are providing the accuracy nd reliability needed for TFP pool management......almost 100% of the time

 

[Oly]

I will try the 3:1 diluted sample, tested on thei stores digital device, and report back, thnx. Using my Taylor CYA reagent even after the 1:1 dilution the sample was like milk, no trace of the dot well before the 100ppm mark. I'm considering pumping out a several 100 gallons of his pool water and marketing it liquid CYA increaser.

 

[Oly]

For those still following along, I diluted a sample of my neighbors pool water and had it tested with their digital analyzer at the pool store. I made no mention this was a diluted sample to the operator.
The dilution was a 3:1 and the CYA tested at 162ppm (in seconds), when multiplied by 4 equals 648ppm. Their first test, 2 days ago with an undiluted sample was reported at 70ppm.
Remember my second drop test was a sample diluted 1:1 and was milk-like with no trace of the dot well before the 100 mark. so 200+ is where I stopped.
I suppose I will have to dilute 9:1 to find the range of the Taylor reagent test. Not too sure I'm going to do that, not really my circus and the decision is not to drain, too hot.
The lonesome train whistle blows.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

650ppm CYA, that’s ridiculous. His TA must be off the charts too - he’s getting 195ppm alkalinity at a pH of 7.5 simply from the presence of cyanurate. So he has no way of knowing what his carbonate alkalinity is and if his TA is below 200ppm, then the water has almost no carbonate in it. That makes it very corrosive towards plaster.

Honestly I’m not even sure I believe the pool store number. The photometer may not be able to handle a CYA value that high.

Heat isn’t an excuse, he could do an exchange drain.

 

[Oly]

I agree, an exchange is the answer here and can be done safely. There already is some plaster spalling so damage is possible and liability can be a hot potato. I explained my reasons to my neighbor and am not going to push this any more unless they request my opinion. It will be a lab experiment for the new pool service. I am upwind and have a good view of the train tracks.
Yes TA was reported at 290 and not a test I did, no need.

 

[Orion7319]

Well, yes and no.

Desalination requires energy. You either use distillation (heat and pressure) to remove the minerals in water or you use reverse osmosis (mechanical energy). Both of those are energy intensive processes and, it’s California, so they already don’t have enough energy to go around. Also, desalination plants are built in coastal areas. Once the fresh water is created it has to be transported. Anytime you have to physically move water more than a hundred miles or higher than a few thousand feet, the costs skyrocket. So, at the end of the day, desalination water is probably the most expensive form of water you can utilize.

The Aussies have some very cool desalination tech based on the use of wave energy to power the desalination process BUT you still have to transport the water which adds up fast.

About the only place on the planet that makes sense to desalinate is in the Middle East where oil is cheap and plentiful and there’s no other sources of water to begin with.

There are some interesting proposals out there that in theory sound great.

 

[Newdude]

I will have to dilute 9:1 to find the range of the Taylor reagent test

The dilution instructions clearly say that the variance for error increases with each dilution so it's just an 'about'. At 9-1 you might be better just tasting it.

 

[scdaren]

The dilution instructions clearly say that the variance for error increases with each dilution so it's just an 'about'. At 9-1 you might be better just tasting it.

Is that a thing? With enough effort, could I develop the skills to just taste the water and know what to add? Like a human TF-100!

 

[magiteck]

Is that a thing? With enough effort, could I develop the skills to just taste the water and know what to add? Like a human TF-100!

There was a post awhile back (last year maybe?) where someone reported their “pool guy” just tasted or smelled their water and said “yep, all balanced” as some sort of demonstration of their amazing skill and the fact that a homeowner couldn’t do what they do.

… no words.

 

[duraleigh]

Very likely he developed that keen sense by tasting other liquids over the years.....perhaps too many!

 

[Vickery]

The gubbermint put a desalination project in Wrightsville Beach, NC for over 20 years. The water there went from being nasty, sulferous near undrinkable to very good. The plant began supplying the city of Wilmington with water at a better rate than what they could treat from the Cape Fear river. Being a beach community they had access to plenty of supply, Wilmington was just next door and connecting the systems was simple. At the end of the project it was disassembled, packed up and shipped to the west coast. Now it's a park/city offices. Water comes from the city now because NO ONE would drink from the salt impinged aquifer!

 

[Dave1096]

Desalination requires energy. You either use distillation (heat and pressure) to remove the minerals in water or you use reverse osmosis (mechanical energy). Both of those are energy intensive processes and, it’s California, so they already don’t have enough energy to go around. Also, desalination plants are built in coastal areas. Once the fresh water is created it has to be transported. Anytime you have to physically move water more than a hundred miles or higher than a few thousand feet, the costs skyrocket. So, at the end of the day, desalination water is probably the most expensive form of water you can utilize.

With the vast majority of the CA population living near the coast transport costs shouldn't be a showstopper. The water provided by a desalination plant in Huntington could supply the local market, and they could stop importing water or import less ( i.e. LA aquaduct). I know the Owens Valley locals for one would appreciate it immensely.

The power demand is another problem with readily available solutions that unfortunately politics usually stand in the way of.