The reliability of SWG's

[chem geek]

Bruce,

In situations with a high CH, one can intentionally lower the Total Alkalinity (TA) to try and compensate somewhat. This also helps keep the rate of pH rise lower since that is mostly a function of TA level (due to carbon dioxide outgassing). Finally, the use of 50 ppm Borates should significantly reduce the amount of scaling in the SWCG because it strongly buffers against a rise in pH.

For example, without 50 ppm Borates and assuming a TA of 80 ppm, CYA of 80 ppm, then a pure base (such as produced at the hydrogen gas generation plate) that would raise the pH from 7.5 to 8.8 without borates would only raise it to 7.9.

Richard

 

[Guest]

Bruce,

In situations with a high CH, one can intentionally lower the Total Alkalinity (TA) to try and compensate somewhat. This also helps keep the rate of pH rise lower since that is mostly a function of TA level (due to carbon dioxide outgassing). Finally, the use of 50 ppm Borates should significantly reduce the amount of scaling in the SWCG because it strongly buffers against a rise in pH.

For example, without 50 ppm Borates and assuming a TA of 80 ppm, CYA of 80 ppm, then a pure base (such as produced at the hydrogen gas generation plate) that would raise the pH from 7.5 to 8.8 without borates would only raise it to 7.9.

Richard

Thank you Richard! Once I get another unit in place I will want to try this. For now I am just pouring bleach in manually to maintain levels. The temps here (should be in the high 80's/low 90's today) are cooling, and have been for a while. My water is down in the low 70's, so not much bather load currently, and not having a unit is not a real big deal.

I'll have a way to "clean up" my water to low calcium ppm levels by the end of the year. Can't talk about it now, but should help our area immensely with hardness levels, and calcifying of salt cells! Then I can fully embrace the BBB Method!

Bruce

 

[Pool Clown]

it doesn't dissolve it, and it will take you much longer to clean it properly with a stick than with acid
you probably wouldn't even be able to clean it fully with a stick

The Three manufacturers that i deal with (none of which are this particular company) say that the acid DOES take away from the coating. Iv'e seen the cell in question, and it is easy and effective to clean with the stick.

plates are much more prone to damage by scratching than by acid washing. hence why virtually all manufacturers recommend cleaning with acid. If cleaning with a hose doesn't clean enough first.

This manufacturer doesn't recommend that, so why not do it the way the manufacturer suggests to preserve the warranty?

I'll admit it, I too probably acid wash to try and save time, That and the fact that usually the customer says "I've already tried to clean it with the hose". The cells i usually deal with don't provide for getting a stick in there to clean, and i usually have to resort to the acid, But this particular cell has the spacing for a stick to clean and it is effective. Have you dealt with this cell before?

 

[Warlord46]

That is true if you have the option of starting with low levels of calcium in the water to start with! Those of us on the left coast (and towards the bottom!) start with a calcium hardness level outside of the range of proper levels, so we are somewhat doomed from the start! If I get water from the tap at about 450 ppm at start up, I tend to get to 1,000 ppm within about 2 years.

I'm very interested in seeing SWCG progress and become a common piece of pool equipment. I just need to find one that works well in our water conditions!

Bruce

It seems to me there is a business opportunity for someone to drive a water treatment truck around from pool to pool to soften the water in certain areas of the country, including S. Fla. and Arizona -- pump it out, run it through a softener, pump it back. I'd much rather do that then deal with the 400+ calcium readings I have from a pool filled with well water. The summer rains, which exceed evaporation losses in S. Fla., keep calcium levels from going any higher in the warm months, and I use soft water from my house water softener system rather than 400+ well water to top up the pool in the dry months.

To tie this message with the title of this thread, lower calcium might help SWG reliability in affected areas.

 

[duraleigh]

The reliability I am curious about is the way they're built. It seem as more people use them, we get more and more reports of circuit board issues and/or sensor issues. Those are the things for which I'm trying to get an anecdotal pattern.

Again, I have no agenda to knock them in any way. That said, I am having this vague feeling that they are certainly not as reliable as some other appliances that are driven digitally....... Stoves, AC's, HVAC units all have circuitry that drives their functions.....do the SWG's perform as reliably as these more common items? I don't know.

 

[Strannik]

I'll admit it, I too probably acid wash to try and save time, That and the fact that usually the customer says "I've already tried to clean it with the hose". The cells i usually deal with don't provide for getting a stick in there to clean, and i usually have to resort to the acid, But this particular cell has the spacing for a stick to clean and it is effective. Have you dealt with this cell before?

I haven't dealt with this particular cell, but majority of Autochlor cells have spacing of around 5.5-6mm and plates are easily accessible.

Yet, the recommended way of cleaning is acid, and soft plastic stick should be used only as a last resort if deposits are so large that acid doesn't eat them away (which means you should've cleaned it earlier). Now considering that Autochlor, unlike most of manufacturers, produce their own plates and have done extensive R&D (which i used to be part of when I worked for them), I'd be inclined to follow their advice

 

[Strannik]

That said, I am having this vague feeling that they are certainly not as reliable as some other appliances that are driven digitally....... Stoves, AC's, HVAC units all have circuitry that drives their functions.....do the SWG's perform as reliably as these more common items? I don't know.

one thing to keep in mind is that unlike stoves etc SWGs operate in harsh environments. If you put SWG into a well ventilated room with stable temperature it will last you much longer than when it sits on a stick open to the weather.

 

[idowatsu]

Hi poolsean,
In 2005 I built an indoor AG pool to do Watsu therapy (aquatic massage) in my commercial home. It runs 12 hours a day from noon to midnight and kept at 96 degrees. More info about the pool at http://www.akashabodysmith.com
Last year it went with a low grade algae problem and the PH kept dropping running at 7.4-7.1 weird combination. I found out the hard way that this corrodes the equipment and had to buy another heater for other reasons. after the replacement I got serious about killing the algae. Bought a TF test kit, shocked it for a long duration till the cc difference came into less that .25
added borates to 50 and this leveled the ph problem. Mind you I have no CYA in the pool, it interfered with the chemtrol reading when we installed it and had to drain and start over. Now I have about 20 CYA with no effect to the reading. No biggie with it being indoor but I have a skylight over it.Thanks TFP
I check the strainer on the cell and the cell about 3 x a year. After bringing up the low PH I checked it a few times, it's OK as far as I could see.[attachment=0:38q7n39k]Copy of HPIM0009.JPG[/attachment:38q7n39k]

 

[Poolsean]

Hey Simi Bruce,

While it's true that some regions are prone to high CH, or TA, compensating the "other" parameters involved in the SI, will help out greatly. The ability for the Salt Chlorine Generator to reverse polarity, and even better, programmable for a faster reversal frequency, will also help to keep the scale off.
If you look at our Total Control, the acid solution is injected prior to the cell location, therefore helping keep the cell scale free. We have many installations in Phoenix, similar conditions as yours, with scale formation greatly minimized.

You're going a ways back with Rob Blake. You had to have the first edition Digital unit.

Can I give you a call and discuss some "industry" offers?

Idowatsu, thanks for the info. Looks like you have alot of stainless steel and aluminum in your pool area. Any incidences of corrosion?

 

[Guest]

Hey Simi Bruce,

While it's true that some regions are prone to high CH, or TA, compensating the "other" parameters involved in the SI, will help out greatly. The ability for the Salt Chlorine Generator to reverse polarity, and even better, programmable for a faster reversal frequency, will also help to keep the scale off.
If you look at our Total Control, the acid solution is injected prior to the cell location, therefore helping keep the cell scale free. We have many installations in Phoenix, similar conditions as yours, with scale formation greatly minimized.

You're going a ways back with Rob Blake. You had to have the first edition Digital unit.

Can I give you a call and discuss some "industry" offers?/quote]

Sean-

If I understand the SWCG correctly, creating a faster reversal frequency also serves to shorten cell life. I may be wrong, but I have been told that numerous times, so I assume that to be true. Please let me know if I have been mislead or am just ignorant!!!

Rob Blake was a ways back! I now speak with Mike Ramey on occasion, and know that he has taken the helm. Mike is a great guy and a huge asset to the pool industry! I wish I could remember which unit I got from Rob back when, but I can't (must be getting old.....!).

I'd love to talk with you and get better informed! I'll PM you with my cell. My wife is taking me to Yosemite for the rest of the week to celebrate my 50th B-day, so I may not be completely available for the week, but we can try and connect!

Bruce

 

[Poolsean]

Mike and John Gruckey took over. Rob moved to SCP commercial division (I believe). The whole Blake group are all great guys.

You're correct in that there is some sacrifice in cell life for a frequent polarity reversal. Good memory. However, allowing the cell to become scaled is the worst condition for the cell, and will cause the quickest death of a cell. In my opinion, I would reverse more frequently to control the scale, rather than letting the scale form and then acid washing it.

The best case scenario is to maintain water balance by adjusting the different parameters involved with balanced water, if you can. If not, keep an eye on your cell and clean it before the scale build up.
If it gets scaled and bridges from blade to blade, you're screwed.

 

[Guest]

I was just getting scale build up so quickly (it got to be about every 6-8 weeks that I was pressure washing the build up off the blades) that I started to get disenchanted with the whole idea of a SWCG. I never really made the jump completely though, since my pool still has salt in it! This all being the case in 2 year old water or "newer".

I'm hoping for better results once I get this hard water issue resolved (more later....) in my pool. I'll start completely over with very clean water and chemicals (including salt if I go that route again) and see how it all plays out. I haven't lost all hope with SWCG, but I'm not 100% in that camp currently either.

Looking forward to talking tomorrow. Give me a call on the number I sent you! I have a couple of meetings between 9 and 11 but should be able to excuse myself to talk with you.

Bruce