Texas vs. SWG - What is the deal

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I inherited a salt pool last year. It came with this house i purchased. I have witnessed severe damage to stone around the pool past 12 months. I am very disappointed with the problem, i got 3 pool guys assess the damage. They all said it is due to the salt system and recommended converting to a UV system. A complete replacement of coping and decking with pavers or travertine was suggested as alternate solution with a price estimate of 20k


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Sal512,

Pretty severe damage there but, since you say it was inherited, there's no way to definitely say that salt is the cause. As we all know here in TFP, people can let their pool water get very corrosive and there's no telling what the previous owner did or did not do.

And I will just state for the record that TFP certainly does recognize legitimate salt damage is possible. Salt, when allowed to build up on and penetrate into stone, causes recrystalization pressure inside the stone matrix as water evaporates and leaves behind solid salt precipitates inside of the microscopic pores found in many natural limestone materials. These salt crystals tend to have larger volumes than the spaces they occupy and so the "push" on the material surrounding them. This leads to microscopic cracking and then spalling. Texas is well known to have very weak flagstone materials as opposed to Arizona limestone.

But the way to treat these problems is not to ban salt, it's to make better choices of materials to use for coping and decking. As well, stone can be sealed to prevent penetration of pool water into the stone matrix. Finally, a good habit to get into is to wash off your pool decking with fresh water regularly to dilute splash out.

As Joel stated, when pool owners practice proper maintenance techniques and are diligent in caring for their pools, problems are greatly mitigated.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Sal512,

Pretty severe damage there but, since you say it was inherited, there's no way to definitely say that salt is the cause. As we all know here in TFP, people can let their pool water get very corrosive and there's no telling what the previous owner did or did not do.

And I will just state for the record that TFP certainly does recognize legitimate salt damage is possible. Salt, when allowed to build up on and penetrate into stone, causes recrystalization pressure inside the stone matrix as water evaporates and leaves behind solid salt precipitates inside of the microscopic pores found in many natural limestone materials. These salt crystals tend to have larger volumes than the spaces they occupy and so the "push" on the material surrounding them. This leads to microscopic cracking and then spalling. Texas is well known to have very weak flagstone materials as opposed to Arizona limestone.

But the way to treat these problems is not to ban salt, it's to make better choices of materials to use for coping and decking. As well, stone can be sealed to prevent penetration of pool water into the stone matrix. Finally, a good habit to get into is to wash off your pool decking with fresh water regularly to dilute splash out.

As Joel stated, when pool owners practice proper maintenance techniques and are diligent in caring for their pools, problems are greatly mitigated.
Click to expand...

Thanks for explanation on how salt damages, especially the weak limestone of texas. Since I was new to pools, I hired a good pool guy to manage my pool . He did weekly visits and notified me of the SWG malfunctioning. I got the circuit board of the Aqua link controller and salt cell replaced in Dec 2015. I have begun to manage the pool on my own past 3 months. We have used this pool only about 10 times in the past year. And i do hose the coping and deck with water from garden hose after use. Any ideas on how to solve the decking and coping problem is highly appreciated. I love the stone look , so dont want to go with stamped concrete or pavers. And i dont want to spend 20k on replacing the entire stone. Could I stop the deterioration by sealing the stone ? I was not aware that it needs to be sealed, otherwise I would have done it soon after inheriting the pool


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I definitely recommend sealing. Here is what I use:
StoneTech Salt Water Resistant Sealer
Is it expensive? Yes
I sealed it 2 months ago and it still beads up. Which is longer than the sealant my PB used at install.
You can find it at Amazon, but I found a better deal at stone masonry website.

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Geez, that's a drag. Usually we pay more for everything down here than what I hear from the US. My quote was AU$26 (US$19) per sq ft for 1.2" limestone including the 4" reinforced concrete base with 8 piers that were needed. They said it was Egyptian or some such hogwash; I think it's from South Africa or China. But I guess we do better on that, but worse on most everything else, especially robots!

I sealed the limestone (5 gallons for $280, includes enough for a couple of re-coats, but I only have about 350 sq ft). There was a lot of argument about sealing. The guy who laid it said seal it. The pool builder said don't waste your money, stone is a million years old. The plasterer said don't get that sealer near the pool, stone is a million years old. My wife said seal it, so it got sealed! Easiest painting ever.

SWCs are very dominant here, and limestone, and travertine are common. Sometimes marble & granite. One I've been at was beautiful and very exxy tile. Finished concrete for the rest. Sandstone is very pretty, but fallen out of favour because of abrasion and softness. One supplier said sandstone was fine, but just not Australian sandstone because it's soft. It's sure nice for traction. I can only speak for maybe 30 pools that I've looked closely at. I think if PBs didn't offer SWG and stone, they'd just sell fewer pools or less stone. I don't see any indication of SWC losing favor here in Sydney.
 
Thanks guys, I'm not going anywhere as I'm a true believer in this site and give the web address at every pool school I do. Tons of information here and that's just too much to ignore.

Silver; The context is wrong in your assumption. I was referring to Mickelin who stated that chlorine is the most corrosive agent in water. I was simply arguing that low pH is worse than high chlorine levels.

Tim; To humor you my thoughts on UV/Ozone are still in their infancy. While My company does sell the combination as an option with new construction we haven't been utilizing them long enough for me to give my approval. I've however selected a handful of existing pools that were out of hand either in algae or cya levels to give UV a try. What I have learned so far is that removing the cya canister aka chlorinator from the equipment pad and utilizing a couple of floating dispensers has wow'd me to no ends. First for those unaware of UV sanitizers, we use the Paramount Ultra UV- used to be called Trident UV before they were bought out, the claim is that a pool can operate just fine on a .5ppm chlorine level. Now being in Houston I was unsure this claim could be recognized due to our climate but on every instance of my personal experience it has. Now this is huge because not only do you remove operator error in dissolving tabs faster than needed thus resulting in cya levels over 100 but you take heater damage and mineral deposits ( mainly from angled returns) off the table. You can run VS pumps 24 hours at any speed w/o again dissolving tabs faster than needed. Algae you ask? Well, as long as you can keep it off the wall it's not a factor. I say off the wall because in one case a pool was covered in green algae. We installed a UV because his Rainbow chlorinator kept getting clogged at the lower fitting and wasn't sanitizing the water as it was supposed too. This customer called a couple days mad that he spent a lot of his money on the UV but his pool was still covered in algae. After I explained that the UV is at the equipment and only kills what goes through it he calmed down. I had him brush the pool, shock and run the pump 3 hours. It's been over a year now and that water is so clear the pool looks empty. Okay, not really empty but you get the just of it. This is what we deal with on a daily basis and again why I'm so big on this site. Information is king and from what I've seen out there we need more kings.

Joyfulnoise; Awesome name btw. Please don't misunderstand me, salt has a very big part to do with it. It's like giving a newly licensed 16 year old a Z06 Vette. You can bet that car is going to be run hard and put away wet. I've met some extremely intelligent people here in Houston. I start every pool school with the same 2 questions. 1.) have you owned a pool before and 2.) is anyone here an engineer. While it can be construed as lack of knowledge I believe the main issue here is lack of interest. People nowadays are looking for ease of maintenance and salt systems fill that need. Most people don't care that their pump has a drip leak, as long as it doesn't noticeably drain the pool. Add salt to the mix and not only will the pump motor rust out but you can bet the heater cabinet will follow. Pool salt water is very corrosive, just take 2 nails. Dip one in the pool and run tap water over the other one. Place them on a light colored stone and see what happens after 24 hours. I have a separate set of screwdrivers I use when checking lights in a salt pool vs. others.

In the business our subs are more important than the materials they install. Not only do you have to find good quality at a reasonable price you also have to look for someone that speaks English. I don't know about the rest of the country but in Houston those 3 things are like hitting the lottery. When we find them we do everything we can to hold onto them. Trust me, we've gone through no less than 10 plumbers in the 9 years since I've been here. We have no choice but to cater to their wishes as if there's a problem they're the ones to go fix it. We just can't open the yellow pages and find a rock guy to come warranty someone else's work.

I'm not against salt systems but rather believe they have their place. That place is with people who care about the investment and believe that the pool is like a pet, you have to feed it, groom it and for Pete's sake play with the darn thing not leave it in the back yard to fend for itself. I wish I could plop down 75k and not have a heart attack after I let it go to waste.
 

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Sal;

That is the main issue I see dealing with salt pools. The material choice is wrong for the environment. Just look at the spillover stone, looks fine. Same as the coping around the pool. The coping around the spa looks to be shellstone which comes pitted to begin with but if you notice the grout lines are extended above the stone. That's the damage from salt (allegedly). I would hope the builder tried to talk them out of it but usually wifey overrules everyone else.

As Jagger stated you need to seal the stone. Also like Thompsons water seal it'll need to be re-applied 2-4 years depending. You can have a rock guy grind down the grout lines if they pose a danger.
 
Sal,

For sure, the original owners didnt make the best choice in stone while considering a SW pool. But oh well. It is what it is and I dont see it as all that bad. Especially compared to some of the others who've come before you.

At least from the pics, I dont belive your stone is history. There are a LOT of people that pay good money for stone that has character to it. Have you ever seen the stones on the Roman Colliseum, well it looks similar to your stone , and it's precious. I think you should embrace what you have and go with it.

I agree with others, you can seal your stone and make it last for a loooongggg time. There has been amazining improvement in the types and varieties of stone sealer over the last few years and no doubt, there is one that can work for you. As others have said though, you will have to maintain it with a new coat or two ever few years.

It's an easy weekend DIY too.

good luck!
 
Just wondering... is it feasible to grind that down a bit before sealing it? I'm thinking of a handheld concrete planer or a stone blade on a circular saw set 1/32 down or some other specialized tool that would do the same thing?
 
just my 2 cents worth. my old SWG had salt levels of 2100 ppm to 3400ppm. above 3400 ppm it would shut down and below 2100
it would not work. that SWG was from 1996. it died and went out of business as for getting parts.
the new replacement one I bought runs from 2700 ppm to 3400ppm. with the much narrower range it needs more attention. meaning
if I got more rain there was more to worry about dilution, like days of 2 to 3 inches rain. what did have me worried was the higher
salt needed for it to work means possibly a saltier taste. possibly more salt damage to the metal pool top I have.
as for salt air migration like when I visited the West coast cars there get covered with salt. I had to wash mine after every visit.
where I live now i some times watch fog lift off the pool in cold air and it flows down hill to my neighbors house. so yes it
may do some damage.

but as for SWG maintainance, I could take a worry free vacation of two weeks and not worry about chlorine levels.
usually all levels were very good cya and AK as well as Ph too. about all I added was a 40 lb bag of salt to my
24400 gal pool once a month.
I am still trying to justify the cost of the SWG to the chemical way BBB pool set up. 4 year pool owner.
 
eaamon said:
just my 2 cents worth. my old SWG had salt levels of 2100 ppm to 3400ppm. above 3400 ppm it would shut down and below 2100
it would not work. that SWG was from 1996. it died and went out of business as for getting parts.
the new replacement one I bought runs from 2700 ppm to 3400ppm. with the much narrower range it needs more attention. meaning
if I got more rain there was more to worry about dilution, like days of 2 to 3 inches rain. what did have me worried was the higher
salt needed for it to work means possibly a saltier taste. possibly more salt damage to the metal pool top I have.
as for salt air migration like when I visited the West coast cars there get covered with salt. I had to wash mine after every visit.
where I live now i some times watch fog lift off the pool in cold air and it flows down hill to my neighbors house. so yes it
may do some damage.

but as for SWG maintainance, I could take a worry free vacation of two weeks and not worry about chlorine levels.
usually all levels were very good cya and AK as well as Ph too. about all I added was a 40 lb bag of salt to my
24400 gal pool once a month.
I am still trying to justify the cost of the SWG to the chemical way BBB pool set up. 4 year pool owner.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the helpful responses. I am looking into implementing the recommendation here of sealing current stone


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eaamon said:
as for salt air migration like when I visited the West coast cars there get covered with salt. I had to wash mine after every visit.
where I live now i some times watch fog lift off the pool in cold air and it flows down hill to my neighbors house. so yes it
may do some damage.
Click to expand...

This statement is not quite correct. Water that vaporizes from the surface of a body of water through thermal action carries no salt with it. If this were not true, then vapor distillation of water for purification purposes would be impossible and rain water would be salty.

Salt water spray/mist is a completely different phenomenon as that is mechanical action of waves creating a spray/mist of salt water that can travel long distances.


eaamon said:
I am still trying to justify the cost of the SWG to the chemical way BBB pool set up. 4 year pool owner.
Click to expand...

See this thread - Economics of Saltwater Chlorine Generators
 
"Maintenance free" is a lie. As a retired deck and porch builder I got calls all the time from people wanting a "maintenance free" composite deck. Then they complain that it gets dirty! Chlorinated tap water is used as a standard reference for corrosive resistant finishes and alloys. Change the ph and it leverages the effect. Water IS the universal solvent, adding chlorine, salt, acid, alkali, heat, dirt, sand or anything else and it will destroy almost anything found in a residential setting. Either maintain your stuff, pay someone else to do it, or expect to replace it. Pools, cars, houses, human bodies and everything else requires maintenance. TANSTAAFL! (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.)
 
eaamon said:
as for salt air migration like when I visited the West coast cars there get covered with salt. I had to wash mine after every visit.
where I live now i some times watch fog lift off the pool in cold air and it flows down hill to my neighbors house. so yes it
may do some damage.
Click to expand...

Also worth noting is the salt concentration in the ocean is ten times that in a saltwater pool. 35,000 ppm in the ocean vs 3500 ppm in a pool.
 
Silver_2000 said:
Joel

One voice against many....
if the subs wont warranty it thats not evidence that there is a problem

You said yourself that the salt isnt the issue its the WATER ...
Then said its not the salt its the lack of maintence

Which is it ?
Salt ?
Water ?
or no maintenance ?

IMO
Pools in general generate maintenance.
Water is the universal solvent ...
I dont have any evidence of that beyond this ;-)
1400-grand-canyon-national-park-hiker.jpg
Click to expand...

That's a great-looking pool, but it's going to cost you a fortune to fill it.
 
My pool was not salt water when I purchased it. I ran it a year that way. Then I converted to SWG. MUCH better because: much less maintenance because the SWG keeps chlorine levels much more steady state. I add a little acid, check ORP/chlorine levels, make an occasional adjust about every 10 days or so. That's all it needs. I have had ZERO corrosion problems on pool equipment.

I have also used Ozone for a couple years because the rep gave it to me for free. It was a nice bonus, but not worth the money to continue running when some of the ozone cells burned out. My pool has brick coping and concrete so no flagstone/salt issues there. Porous stone does have to be sealed every year is my understanding. If I were you, I would ditch the U/V and ozone and get the SWG. I would only consider U/V for an indoor pool.

I agree with most of the above posts: poor pool owner maintenance is to blame for most issues.

The other reality is even with a greatly optimized pool with great equipment, you can expect "some" piece of equipment to need repair or replacing every year. Water and chlorine are simply a harsh environment and stuff wears out over time. This is different from rapidly deteriorating corrosion.

In general I wouldn't rely on any pool warranties. Some will stand behind them, but many try to avoid standing behind them anyway.

For a new pool build, I would get a good 1-2 year warranty from the builder to cover any MAJOR errors in building and move on.

Lee
 

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