TA and pH rise vs CSI?

natedawg

Member
Oct 14, 2024
22
Oakland, CA
Pool Size
20000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I have a 20k gallon set plaster pool and an attached spillover spa. We moved in January so all of this pool maintenance is new to me.

It’s currently winter so the pool has been cold (50s) but it’s not closed, I’m still running the pumps, cleaning, etc…

After my recent test results it looks like my CSI is below -0.3 which is not recommended. However, I’m having a hard time figuring out how to balance CSI as it seems everyone suggests having lower TA values, but I can’t seem to bring CSI down without having higher TA values.

Test Results:
pH: 7.5
CH: 270 (targeting 350)
CYA: 35 (targeting 70)
TA: 70
Salt: 3400

This puts my CSI at -0.63 currently.

Any ideas on how to best manage this?
 
If I bring pH to 7.8 (and also my CH and CYA to the the levels mentioned above), then it brings my CSI to -0.34 which is still outside of the recommended range.

When temps increase it will improve, but even still my pH range won’t be acceptable below 7.6.

Increasing my TA to 100 or 110 looks like it will give me a better buffer for CSI, but I don’t want it to negatively impact managing pH.
 
If I bring pH to 7.8 (and also my CH and CYA to the the levels mentioned above), then it brings my CSI to -0.34 which is still outside of the recommended range.
Again, let the pH naturally drift up to ~7.9-8.0

Temporary CSI excursions are OK, don't worry about it.

Increasing my TA to 100 or 110 looks like it will give me a better buffer for CSI, but I don’t want it to negatively impact managing pH.
How are you chlorinating? Under normal circumstances, a non-trichlor pool should never need baking soda. Your TA is fine.
 
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This puts my CSI at -0.63 currently.

Any ideas on how to best manage this?
If it were me, I would do nothing. I routinely keep my CSI between -0.3 and -0.6 and for the last several months it has been around -0.7. It really isn't anything to worry about it.


Also, when CSI is that low, it tends to rise over time anyway as PH will tend to rise with CO2 outgassing.
 
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Your CSI is fine at -0.60 and above. Keep your TA where it's at to mitigate scaling and pH rise. Maintain pH above 7.8 to 8.0.
natedawg, you're getting a somewhat confusing range of answers. Mike's (Rancho Cost-a-Lotta) is the best one.

I'm still obsessed with my numbers, but a little less so since I first took over my pool. You'll get there. Here's a few tips that will help:

- CSI would need to be way below -0.6, or way above 0.6 for months, if not years, before it would have a noticeable impact on your plaster. A few weeks slightly low or slightly high is nothing to worry about.

- A TA of 70 is just about perfect. Leave that alone, for sure. If you need to move CSI for some reason (you don't, for now) then you adjust your pH. That's the easiest level to move, up or down, and will get you the fastest results.

- Mike's second bit of advice is even more important than the first. Create your signature right away. It's not just a showcase of your pool and equipment, it's something the experts here need. Every detail you provide will get you better answers. Use my signature as an example of what we're after.


My TA is 70. I let my pH rise to around 8 in the winter, and lower it to about 7.6-7.7 in the summer. I NEVER move my TA.

Welcome to TFP, glad you found us!
 
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Thanks all this is helpful. My pH definitely tends to rise, especially with the attached spillover spa. I will retest pH here in a bit and see where it has settled as it has been about two weeks since I dropped it previously.

My fill water also has high pH of 9.5 right now. Obviously not needed as much in the winter with the rains, but in the summer I imagine it will have more of an impact.

My TA is 70. I let my pH rise to around 8 in the winter, and lower it to about 7.6-7.7 in the summer. I NEVER move my TA.

How do you maintain your pH without dropping your TA? I thought adding muriatic acid dropped your TA, so wouldn't you need to raise it back up occasionally?
 

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How do you maintain your pH without dropping your TA? I thought adding muriatic acid dropped your TA, so wouldn't you need to raise it back up occasionally?
You said your fill water pH is 9.5.

What is your fill water TA?

If you reduce your pH by only 0.3 - 0.4 at a time you will not make big TA changes. Your TA will bounce back and never need to be raised.

Let your pH and TA come close to equilibrium. Read PH TA Relationship - Further Reading
 
You're only moving the PH slightly to keep your CSI in control. That little bit of MA won't have much of an effect on TA. As far as the spill over goes you want to limit it to twice a day for 15 minutes to keep the spa chemistry stable and not raise the ph.
 
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How do you maintain your pH without dropping your TA? I thought adding muriatic acid dropped your TA, so wouldn't you need to raise it back up occasionally?
I automated my acid dispensing, which actually occurs once an hour! A tiny bit each hour. That keeps my pH very stable throughout the days, weeks, months. Which also keeps my TA very stable. I don't need to raise TA, because my fill water is high in TA. Indeed, I have to use a decent amount of acid to counter that incoming TA. I use less acid in the winter, because I add less makeup water each day.

But every pool is different, so you can only use the examples of others for rough comparison.

As Allen points out, small level adjustments (more often if necessary) work better than letting a level get way out of whack and then blasting it back. Since both my FC and pH are controlled by automation, they both get tiny adjustments many times a day. That keep FC, pH and TA very even, and none of them ever get way off. That's what works for my pool.

You mentioned you haven't tested pH in a couple weeks. Your fill water and pool usage will determine testing frequency, you can't really bend a pool's need for testing and dosing to your schedule, you have to follow its schedule. Which you figure out from experience. How much pH and TA are coming into your pool, and how often, along with how many people are using your pool, and how often, (plus sun exposure and water features, etc) determine how often you have to dose to maintain levels. And as you mentioned, that'll change throughout the seasons. Adjusting pH every two weeks might work, but if it's not often enough, then you gotta dose more often. Simple as that. You'll figure out how long it takes for your pH to move that "0.3 - 0.4" that Allen mentioned, and that'll determine how often you'll need to test and dose. That might be every two weeks, or it might be every two days!

Now just to add another layer here, I have it in my head that a stable CSI is better for your pool finish than a fluctuating one. I figure, if there is an ideal CSI (and I believe there is) then the more time your finish spends subjected to that ideal CSI, then the longer it'll last, and the better it'll look. I can't back that up with hard data, just a hunch based on logic. That sounds like a contradiction to the previously mentioned advice of not sweating CSI as long as it's between -0.6 and 0.6, but it's not, really. I just choose to narrow that range, because I can, not necessarily because I have to.

It's why I added the automation. I test once a week, year round, but my dosing is occurring much more often. When my pH and TA and CH are stable, so is my CSI. So in addition to the automation, I adjust my CH once a year (via small water exchanges) rather than let it build up and up and up until it goes out of range. (Plus, my fill water has near-zero CH in it, because I fill my pool with soft water, to counter my high-CH fill water.) I took Allen's notion of "0.3 - 0.4" to a next level, and my levels never need even that much adjustment. I'm not suggesting you have to be that compulsive about it, it's not taught or normally done by most here, it's just my personal preference, and made possible by automation and my OCD! 🤪

I'll know in 20 years how this strategy pays off, if I need to pay $20,000+ for new pebble in 2045 or not. I'll let you know!
 
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Thanks all, this is very helpful. I just tested yesterday and my pH looks to be around 8 now. So it seems to be stabilizing around there, with the spa spilling over 15 minutes a day. Will adjust back down to 7.6 or so and see how long it takes to get back.

And my CSI is much better with my pH around 8 as well.
 
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