Switching from Frog to SWCG

[P00LNerd]

Okay folks, after several straight weeks of travel away from home, I'm ready to dive into this SWCG conversion. But time is preciously thin, I'm in catch-up mode with work the next several weeks, after time on the road.

The basics of my pool configuration are in my signature and profile. I keep it heated above 86F, and with the solar cover it more often drifts closer to 90F. We try to keep it high-80's, but accidental excursions into the mid-90's do happen, particularly if I'm away and the solar cover is left installed.

I have electric nearby, but all six slots in the panel are already populated with breakers. If I can't just tag this onto the utility receptacle circuit (120V/20A), then I'll have to upgrade the whole panel. That might mean postponing until the off-season.

I'll post a picture of my present layout, since space may be an issue. There are 1.5" PVC unions either side of the Frog sanitizer, so the plan would be to just disconnect that there, and plumb the SWCG to the same unions, setting it in the space near the pump and filter.

The goal is to have something that requires no daily interaction behind just nudging the rate up/down a little to follow daily chlorine tests. Most importantly, it needs to be reliable when left alone a week or two, here and there. I'm rarely away more than a week, without at least stopping home a day the weekend between, but it does happen. Thankfully, all houses in our neighborhood have pools, so I can usually rope a neighbor into any necessary checks, as long as it's not a daily thing.

What brand/model would you guys recommend for an easy swap into this setup? Cost is no object, really just looking for the best performing solution, with the least issues.



PS -- Don't ask me why the pipe between heater and filter is crooked. That one was done by the pool installers. I did the H-pipe to/from the Frog myself, since that had made a crooked mess of that, too.

 

[Newdude]

Circupool is hard to beat. They claim 50% more production, for 50% longer, and although we believe it's exaturated, it at least does as well as the flagship brands. It likely does somewhere in the middle, which is a huge plus. The warranty is prorated, but on years 3+, getting something whoops nothing from the others.

The RJ30 would be great for 15k gallons in PA, but discount salt pools upgrades from there for $10 ish so it's almost foolish to not get the crazy overkill RJ45. (Basically a RJ30 + RJ15..... a unit that makes 3X as much as you'll need, running 1/3 as much, living 3X longer).

It can be wired directly to the pump breaker on 220V mode and if you run 24/7 you can skip the seperate timer for the SWG. On the rare/off chance the pump shuts off but retains power, then the flow switch will be the redundant failsafe.

You have a simple system so it will likely satisfy the flow switch at a very low RPM. My pump draws 35W when the cell kicks on. Even at 100W, it's a joke to run full time. You can ramp up the RPMs as usual for heating or any other functions such as using a cleaner. The rest of the time it's first cheap and you'll also filter and skim around the clock.

 

[sande005]

Others with far more experience/knowledge will likely chime in soon (Newdude already did as I was typing!). Two other key factors to look at while shopping: Where to mount the control box for the unit (if not an all-in-one that is part of the piping), and more importantly - turning off the SWCG when the pump is not running. SWCG units also generate small amounts of hydrogen gas. If not carried out by the flow, there have been rare cases of the units exploding. Very rare, but....
If cost is really no object, talk to your pool dealer about the Pentair units, and what they recommend for a basic automation system to coordinate them with your pump.

I really like my Circupool, as Newdude recommends. My RJ-45+ can run off of 220 OR 120v - so you could just plug it in to your utility outlet.
Circupool is one of the few that gives you a full length warranty, even if you install it yourself.
Check manuals for the control settings, if you plan to get one really oversized, as he mentioned. You want something that can be set in 5% increments (or less), not 10% or 20%, so you have finer control at lower levels.
But, as he said, make sure your pump is set to run 24/7. Short off periods (like for backwashing) are not a big deal. But if the pump was off for a couple of hours, or longer, and the generator was on and the flow switch was bad....

Plumbing it is easy. For your case, I would get rid of everything between the heater and the union at the outlets. There would never be a need for a bypass, and as noted, could be bad if it was bypassed with power on (and a broken flow switch). There is nothing bad to backflow, so you don't need the backflow preventer, either.

 

[P00LNerd]

Thanks guys! Definitely no issue in ditching the bypass, although I'd probably want to keep that check valve in there.

Since we are in a colder climate, I do have the pump programmed to turn off every night. Even with the solar cover installed, running the pump at night would really increase my heating costs, and make it almost impossible to keep the pool warm spring/fall. Even this morning, July 1, the air temp was 58F when I went out to check the pool.

As to tagging it onto the pump breaker, I'll have to check code on that. I switched that breaker from GFCI to non-GFCI, due to nuisance tripping. That's okay even at 20A, if it's a dedicated motor/pump circuit, but I believed mixed circuits at 20A require GFCI near a pool.

The utility receptacle is 20A, so that may be an option. Of course, if I need more panel mounting board space to hang a controller, it may make sense to just upgrade the breaker panel, too. Shame, as that mounting board is a rather nice mahogany with spar varnish, but I have more where that came from.



That panel is actually about 4.5 feet tall, to keep it out of our winter snows, just a weird perspective looking down on it from pool wall above.

 

[P00LNerd]

So, I'm looking at the Circupools, roughly $1200 - $1400, depending on RJ-30 vs RJ-45. A lot more than I expected, but not a problem, if it's the best solution.

But I need help understanding the reasoning behind the RJ-45. After all, the RJ-60 is only $4 more, so why not just get that. When is it "too big"?

It looks like $100 jump for each size, in replacement salt cell. Is the model number how many thousands of gallons I can get out of it before replacement? In other words, 15k gallon pool = 2 years on RJ-30 vs. 3 years on RJ-45, based on typical losses?

 

[Newdude]

So, I'm looking at the Circupools, roughly $1200 - $1400, depending on RJ-30 vs RJ-45.

Sounds about right. $1189 for the 30, + a $4 upgrade to the 45. (Plus tax)

Current link

But I need help understanding the reasoning behind the RJ-45.

The cells are rated for 100% runtime. So with a 1X cell it would need to run 24/7 in the peak season to produce enough FC daily. A 2X cell only needs 12 hours of runtime, which doubles its finite lifespan for a fraction of the cost of buying 2 consecutive smaller units. All cells have a lifespan based upon hours on/run. (Usually about 10k, circupool claims 15k hours) A 3X cell has a GREAT return on investment, but in PA with short seasons, the electronics may die from age before the expensive plates are used up. Theoretically you could have a 3X cell for 15-20 years in PA.

But for $4 more for the 3X in the link above, you really have nothing to lose.

 

[P00LNerd]

Oh yeah, definitely. Except I could do the RJ-30 for $4 more than the RJ-15. It's just a game of leapfrogging prices.

You've mentioned PA twice, probably expecting our usage is lower because of cold weather, but I keep the pool 86-90F mid-May until late September. Pool opens late April or early May, and closes in early October, with a week or three of un-heated cold running at either end of the season. Not sure if that aligns with your expectation or not, regarding total hours and usage.

 

[Newdude]

Except I could do the RJ-30 for $4 more than the RJ-15.

Ha !!! I missed the RJ20 for $1089 (+$4 to the 30).

I'd gamble $100 on the 45. It only has to last about 9% longer than the 30 to break even. Anything more than that is gravy.

But the 30 will last many years too, it's no slouch.

You've mentioned PA twice, probably expecting our usage is lower because of cold weather, but I keep the pool 86-90F mid-May until late September.

UV loss in minimal in the early and late season. I go April to Nov. A 3 ppm dose (bleach or swg....... over mininum FC, of course) might last a whole week in the extended season.

 

[P00LNerd]

I guess I need more time to read pros/cons, but based on my pool size, climate, usage, discountsaltpool.com recommends the Circupool CORE-35.

What's the main diff between RJ's and CORE's?

 

[P00LNerd]

Just so we're all on the same page, after discountsaltpool's pricing game:

RJ-30+ = $1093
CORE-35 = $1283
RJ-45+ = $1193
CORE-55 = $1483

The CORE series supposedly has their "most advanced electronics", whatever that means. and an 8 year warranty versus 7 years on the RJ+'s. Both can operate 110V or 220V, but the CORE has the advantage of no mounted control panel.

 

[Newdude]

The RJ plus series has the most adjustment increments 5% at a time and the most diagnostics displayed.

Circupool SWG - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

But none of them are 'bad'. Many of us just prefer the RJ.

 

[wireform]

Much easier to find the right pump run time/swcg with the RJ series. 2X pool capacity is plenty extra, I wouldn't go any bigger. You can hang the RJ controller on the back side of that board it could care less. I have installed many RJ units and find them to give you the most information of what it's doing.

 

[sande005]

How does your heat pump know to turn off when the pump is not running? I couldn't find any info on the manufacturers site.
If not just from the flow switch tripping, wondering if the SWCG can be controlled the same way.....

 

[P00LNerd]

How does your heat pump know to turn off when the pump is not running? I couldn't find any info on the manufacturers site.
If not just from the flow switch tripping, wondering if the SWCG can be controlled the same way.....

Heat pump has its own internal flow switch. When pump turns off, heat pump shuts down a second or two later, and displays "FLO" on front panel.

I'll verify in the literature, but I think newdude already said RJ+ has its own flow switch, as well. Only question then would be whether it's suitable for primary control, or only redundant failsafe.

 

[sande005]

I've only regarded the flow switches as backups, in case a on/off shut down isn't done. But it is a belt-and-suspenders type of thing for me.

My Circupool manual, on page 17, does say you can go direct to the power source, and use the flow switch to energize or dormant the Cell.

My pump has 3 programmable speed periods, like yours - but it only knows 24 hrs from the last time power came on. It doesn't know the time of day.

I wired all of my things to a 3 control timer. Pump runs 24/7. (well, a 1 minute off period to restart the 24 hr period). Heater and SWCG turn off 1/2 hour before the pump, and start up again 1/2 hr after.

You might consider something similar with a 2 device timer - get the advantages of keeping the water moving on low speed 24/7 using pumps own settings, the SWCG at whatever length of time works for providing CL, and keep the heater on a "day time only" schedule. Flexibility, and the two flow switches are backups in case things get out of synch. The timers are not very expensive.

 

[P00LNerd]

Doh... knew I should've made a bigger panel mounting board!

The multi-timer wiring would get a little hokey, with the pump hardwired 220VAC and the SWG plugged into a utility outlet, but it certainly could be done. If using the flow switch internal to the SWG is safe enough, I'm inclined to lean toward the clean and simple solution of just letting that manage the SWG based on whether my pump is moving satisfactory water. But if that's not safe, then I'd do whatever is needed.

I guess I'll need to check the SWG manual for whatever unit I end up buying, to check on that. Might even sway me toward one model/brand over another, as I'd really prefer to not get bogged down in timer wiring and setup, if I can easily avoid it.

 

[P00LNerd]

Plumbing it is easy. For your case, I would get rid of everything between the heater and the union at the outlets. There would never be a need for a bypass, and as noted, could be bad if it was bypassed with power on (and a broken flow switch). There is nothing bad to backflow, so you don't need the backflow preventer, either.

So, I noticed they actually sell a bypass tube section for the cell. Reading on it, they say to use this when cleaning the cell, or any other time you want to keep the pump/filter/heat running while performing maintenance on the cell. So, maybe not a bad idea to just leave my bypass valve in there, and install the cell and flow switch where I presently have the Frog union'd in.

 

[proavia]

The flow switch is the SECONDARY safety device.
The timer is the PRIMARY safety device.
Protect your investment and use a timer to control the SWG. It also allows for additional fine tuning of the SWG run time.
The SWG timer would be set to run within the pump runtimes. SWG on 30 minutes after pump on and SWG off 30 before pump off.

I'd do the RJ30+ with the upgrade price to the RJ45+. This gives you the RJ45+.
I would also wire the timer and SWG for 220v to match the pump voltage.

For the install, cut the white pipe flush with the right side of the check valve (check valve stays plumbed to heater), then use a coupler the next size pipe up to attach to the check valve nd a reducer in the other end of the coupler to reduce back to your present pipe size. Also, cut out the 3-way Jandy valve for reuse - use it as a heater bypass to allow the heater to be bypassed. This allows you to run the pump as a lower rpm when the heater is bypassed and still satisfy the SWG flow switch.

 

[P00LNerd]

The flow switch is the SECONDARY safety device.
The timer is the PRIMARY safety device.
Protect your investment and use a timer to control the SWG. It also allows for additional fine tuning of the SWG run time.
The SWG timer would be set to run within the pump runtimes. SWG on 30 minutes after pump on and SWG off 30 before pump off.

Got it. What's everyone's favorite timer? I'm familiar with single timers, but keeping two of those in sync would be an exercise in futility. I assume there's a popular dual timer people are using for this?

I'd do the RJ30+ with the upgrade price to the RJ45+. This gives you the RJ45+.

Or I could do the RJ20+ with upgrade price to RJ30+. That's already reaching the "double capacity" everyone here recommended at the start.

One reason I'm hesitating on going real big is that the electronics are mounted outdoors and exposed, and less than 10 feet from the pool. Even the manufacturer alludes to the possibility they won't live long, if not under cover of roof. I don't want to buy a system and have the controller die before the cell is depleted.

I would also wire the timer and SWG for 220v to match the pump voltage.

Done. If I'm adding a timer, then stabbing both pump and SWG control into timer is easy.

For the install, cut the white pipe flush with the right side of the check valve (check valve stays plumbed to heater), then use a coupler the next size pipe up to attach to the check valve nd a reducer in the other end of the coupler to reduce back to your present pipe size. Also, cut out the 3-way Jandy valve for reuse - use it as a heater bypass to allow the heater to be bypassed. This allows you to run the pump as a lower rpm when the heater is bypassed and still satisfy the SWG flow switch.

I don't think I'll do this, unless someone gives a real compelling reason to do so. The manual repeats that I'm going to want a bypass around the SWG cell, for my cold climate, and also for when I need to clean the cell. I don't really see any point in re-plumbing all of that to run a bypass around the heater, even if it would theoretically allow slightly lower pump speeds when turned off. Small potatoes.

 

[proavia]

One reason I'm hesitating on going real big is that the electronics are mounted outdoors and exposed, and less than 10 feet from the pool. Even the manufacturer alludes to the possibility they won't live long, if not under cover of roof. I don't want to buy a system and have the controller die before the cell is depleted.

The control unit is the same for the RJ30 thru RJ60 (maybe the RJ15 as well).
You can easily build a cover over it and maybe even bring it indoors over winter.

I must have missed it - what is your existing timer powering?
Your VS pump should be getting continuous power.