SWG run time calculations assistance

Did you buy it directly from Circupool or a reseller? I would inquire as to getting a replacement unit. I think that would probably be the easiest fix for it.
I purchased it from Discount Salt Pool, which as near as I can tell is the same company as CircuPool. Packages sent to me from CircuPool have Discount Salt Pool on the return address. Either way, I spoke with CircuPool already and they told me in no uncertain terms that as long as there's ANY chlorine in the pool and no warning lights on the controller they consider the unit to be functioning normally, no matter how many hours I have to run the pump to even keep the FC at 3. I told the representative that my usual pump run time was 4 hours, but I even tried running it 11 hours to see if that was enough to generate the 2 ppm I needed. His response was in a tone that seemed to me to be derisive, and he said, "I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with these experiments."

So, long story short, it doesn't look like CircuPool/Discount Salt Pool are going to be of assistance. I am trying very hard not to discuss my opinion of any product or service. I am only reporting facts as they happened.
 
How are you measuring and adjusting pH? How often do you measure pH?

When you run the cell, do you see any significant change in pH?
 
I cleaned the cell and ran the pump another 1:20, which theoretically should increase FC by 1.0 to 8.4. The actual FC is 7.6.

My pH does go up like crazy.. Until yesterday I was measuring the pH with the TFT kit. My electrode for my Pinpoint pH meter (normally for my aquarium use) finally came yesterday, which I calibrated and tested the pool at 7.49. Not bad when the TFT test was 7.5. That 7.49 was last night at the same time as the 5.6 FC measurement. After last night's 8-hour pump run and this morning's 1:20, the pH is 7.73.
 
So based on all this information and the pictures you are showing of your pool, I believe you may be experiencing a little bit of a “short pipe” effect - chlorine gas is not fully dissolving into the water and is being carried along by a very high velocity water stream where it exits mostly out of one return. When chlorine gas is generated at the anode, there is a resulting generation of hydroxide ion (OH-) at the cathode. When chlorine gas dissolves in water there is what's called a disproportionation reaction where by half the chlorine atoms form hypochlorous acid and the other half go back to chloride ions (Cl-). That reaction is partially acidic and reduces some of the pH rise that would occur from the hydroxide created. Over time, with sanitation and oxidation reactions being acidic, the net effect would be a neutral effect on pH. BUT, if chlorine gas is generated and allowed to escape, then there is no formation of hypochlorous acid and the pH will rise quickly from the formation of hydroxide ion.

This is why I wanted you to block off the return with a plug to force better distribution of your pool water. If the amount of gas coming out of a return is enough to soak the coping above it, then that is a problem as it suggests a very high water velocity with lots of bubbles coming to the surface. A dye test would likely reveal the extent of the hydraulic mixing pattern of your current plumbing setup.

In practice, you need several fixes (in no specific order) -

1. All of those return pipes need to be fitted with eyeballs to adjust flow. I realize that this is "after the fact" but open pipes for returns result in very poor hydraulic mixing of the water.

2. A variable speed pump, or at the very least a 2-speed pump, would help you to slow down the water flow and give the chlorine more time to mix and dissolve. Given that CA has banned single speed pump motors and Federal regulations will soon follow, a cheap solution if your have 240V at the pump would be to simply swap out the motor with a 2-speed with enough HP so that the flow switch of the SWG is activated at low speed. 2-speed motors are cheap and you could easily recover the cost in a few seasons.

3. Installing a valve to turn off the spa return pipe (was it one pipe, like a spa makeup return or is only the multiple pipes where spa jets would normally be??). Running the spillover constantly is no good for your pH and if you are having trouble with dissolving chlorine gas, a turbulent spillover is only going to make matters worse. I have an attached spa as well and I only need to run chlorinated water through it for about 90mins per day to keep it sanitized (I break it up into two 45min runs because it is on automation).

4. An optional approach to getting a new pump would be to plumb the SWG cell in a bypass configuration where you can reduce the amount of water flow into the cell and try to see if that helps with mixing. Obviously you need to satisfy the flow switch but it may help.

5. Running the SWG at lower output for longer pump run times would help to generate smaller amounts of chlorine that may be able to mix more easily. I realize that with a single speed pump that means more electricity usage and expense, but it's generally easier on the cell to run it in shorter intervals. Clearly running the SWG longer at lower output necessitates Point #2 to reduce costs.

The above is just my opinion and suggestions, you can do with that as you may. But I really do think the RJ-60+ is working and that it is the configuration of it that is causing issues.
 
The above is just my opinion and suggestions, you can do with that as you may. But I really do think the RJ-60+ is working and that it is the configuration of it that is causing issues.
There is zero chance that I'm going to go out and turn the valve on the return to switch from pool to spa and then back every day.

I appreciate all of the assistance, truly. This is a LOT of work just to avoid carting chlorine from the pool store. Far more expensive and laborious than the liquid chlorine. If I had known in advance I would not have made the decision to go with an SWG. My entire motivation was to reduce my expense and labor, but it appears that it has multiplied both by a significant amount. Live and learn.

How much is a lightly used RJ60+ worth?
 
There is zero chance that I'm going to go out and turn the valve on the return to switch from pool to spa and then back every day.

It would be interesting to try it for a test at least, if nothing else to confirm that this really is the problem. Although I think Matt’s explanation does make a lot of sense.

It’s unfortunate that you wound up in this situation. It certainly seems to be an unusual problem and it doesn’t seem like there are a lot of inexpensive workarounds. :(
 
There is zero chance that I'm going to go out and turn the valve on the return to switch from pool to spa and then back every day.

I appreciate all of the assistance, truly. This is a LOT of work just to avoid carting chlorine from the pool store. Far more expensive and laborious than the liquid chlorine. If I had known in advance I would not have made the decision to go with an SWG. My entire motivation was to reduce my expense and labor, but it appears that it has multiplied both by a significant amount. Live and learn.

How much is a lightly used RJ60+ worth?


Yeah, sorry. I'm not sure if you sought advice here on the purchase but if I had seen these pool configuration issues (single speed pump, no automation, no return fittings, etc), I would have been hesitant to advise purchasing an SWG. Most modern pools are built nowadays with automation and VSPs and so adding an SWG to the mix is almost a no-brainer.

PVC is cheap and so if you're willing to invest some sweat-equity into replumbing the SWG with a bypass loop, then you might have a chance at improving the performance. At the very least it will do nothing for you but give you the ability to bypass the SWG and remove it...but selling it on eBay could get you some of your money back. You can always point potential buyers to this thread to show them that you're getting rid of it because it doesn't work on your pool's configuration.
 
PVC is cheap and so if you're willing to invest some sweat-equity into replumbing the SWG with a bypass loop, then you might have a chance at improving the performance. At the very least it will do nothing for you but give you the ability to bypass the SWG and remove it...but selling it on eBay could get you some of your money back. You can always point potential buyers to this thread to show them that you're getting rid of it because it doesn't work on your pool's configuration.

Do you really think there's a chance that it'll work? I mean it's all about contact time, right? I can slow down the water in the bypass, but that's 16 inches at the most. Even if I can slow the water 90%, it's only going to increase total contact time by 20% or so.
 
I'm a firm believer that every experience can be a learning experience. I think it would be helpful for future potential buyers if TFP could add some information to the SWG article in pool school about the equipment and pool design requirements for an SWG. Prior to my purchase I had never seen any indication that there were pool design, equipment, and water flow prerequisites required before an SWG could work effectively. It's always marketed as as "set it up and forget it" solution, which it apparently can only do under a specific set of circumstances. I hate to think of other people being faced with the unnecessary loss of $1,500 when it could be avoided.
 
Got to be honest, in 6 years of the forum, yours is the first pool I have seen that a SWCG just did not work out. Your required parameters are very tight with a restrictive pool design. Sorry it did not work out.
 
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Got to be honest, in 6 years of the forum, yours is the first pool I have seen that a SWCG just did not work out. Your required parameters are very tight with a restrictive pool design. Sorry it did not work out.
I don't think the requirement that it not cost ten times as much as liquid chlorine is "very tight." Am I being unreasonable? I don't want to come across that way.

It would have been nice if the manufacturers specified the existence of a set of minimum requirements for their equipment rather than just assuming everyone meets those requirements. Unfortunately there is no information available beforehand to the consumer that would allow them to avoid this situation. They just have to drive off that cliff themselves and find out.
 
It's hard to give specific advice in the form of a Pool School article. One would see this and think that an SWG would never work on an easy-set pool like and Intex but there are Intex owners with SWGs that work just fine. We can look at the article on SWG's and perhaps tighten up the language to nudge people to ask questions before purchasing.

One thing that really stuck out to me about your pool was when you described your returns. Not to sound argumentative but you do realize that open pipes with no eyeballs is a really bad setup for a pool? Having return fittings allows the water stream to be more focused and can help balance the hydraulic output form the returns. A pipe with no eyeball basically spills water out into the pool volume where it instantly dissipates from convective flow. It doesn't allow you to direct the water stream more forcefully and directionally to create a circulation pattern. That leads to a lot of stagnant area in the water column. @mas985 can certainly talk more intelligently about return fittings and how to balance the hydraulics. He also did a video of a dye test in his pool and the results are very illuminating.

Maybe if you looked into some of the friction fit style fittings to see if they could work for your pool you might be able to balance the flow better or direct the water streams downward so that the bubbles get more contact time with the water. Return fittings are cheap so it might be worth a try if you can figure out how get it to work with those return pipes.
 
I don't think the requirement that it not cost ten times as much as liquid chlorine is "very tight." Am I being unreasonable? I don't want to come across that way.

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all. But I think the difference is that you are trying to get all of your chlorine generation done in a 4 hour time period with a SWG that’s very oversized for your pool.

Typically people will get a SWG that’s rated at twice the capacity of their pool and will run it 24 hours a day with a variable speed pump, or maybe 8 hours a day with a single speed pump. I think you’re the first person I saw who was trying to compress the cycle to 4 hours.

That said, I certainly understand your reasoning and even if it’s a bit unusual I don’t think it’s unreasonable. It’s just that the combination of the unusually short generation cycle as well as the unusual configuration of your pool with no return eyeballs seems to have combined to create a perfect storm of underperformance of the SWG.

I’ve been following this forum for a while, particularly watching threads on SWG’s and I don’t think I’ve ever seen another post about someone with a similar problem. It definitely doesn’t appear to be a common issue. Of course that’s little consolation after you spent a lot of money, only to blindly run into this problem.
 
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If you haven’t completely given up hope at this point and are willing to put a little time and effort into it then I wonder if attempting to install eyeballs onto your returns would be the best option for you. Hopefully that would be reasonably inexpensive (at least compared to other options, like replacing your pump) and should provide other benefits like better mixing of your water.

If you post a picture to the equipment forum of your existing returns someone might be able to come up with a good option for getting eyeballs attached.
 
One thing that really stuck out to me about your pool was when you described your returns. Not to sound argumentative but you do realize that open pipes with no eyeballs is a really bad setup for a pool? Having return fittings allows the water stream to be more focused and can help balance the hydraulic output form the returns. A pipe with no eyeball basically spills water out into the pool volume where it instantly dissipates from convective flow. It doesn't allow you to direct the water stream more forcefully and directionally to create a circulation pattern. That leads to a lot of stagnant area in the water column. @mas985 can certainly talk more intelligently about return fittings and how to balance the hydraulics. He also did a video of a dye test in his pool and the results are very illuminating.

I know it for sure. I've been looking for some way to address that since I bought the house 5 years ago. When you couple that with the borked Anthony style overflow (meaning I have no suction from main drain), my circulation is bad. I have never found any kind of fitting that will slip into a 3/4-inch pipe recessed 1/2 inch from the plaster face. It's probably because I can't figure out the right search terminology.

I'm hoping when I get the pool replastered they can break away the plaster there and at least attach some fittings that will allow me to attach standard return jets. Until then the search remains.
 
Typically people will get a SWG that’s rated at twice the capacity of their pool and will run it 24 hours a day with a variable speed pump, or maybe 8 hours a day with a single speed pump. I think you’re the first person I saw who was trying to compress the cycle to 4 hours.
Even 8 hours a day during off-peak means $91.25 per month for the electricity on the pump alone. The electricity alone is nearly double the price of liquid chlorine. I can't see how an SWG can ever be cost effective with a single speed pump. After pricing in the cost of the SWG, an 8-hour runtime would limit any pump to 620 Watts just to make an SWG break even with the cost of liquid chlorine. I don't know if an Intelliflo or other pump can get enough flow to do the job with 620 Watts or less.
 
I don't know if an Intelliflo or other pump can get enough flow to do the job with 620 Watts or less
Most VS systems can run at 1200 rpm or a bit more. Mine runs at 1500 rpm. It uses 200 watts at that rate.
Most of the country pays under 12 cents per kWh. My electric cost for our pool is under 50 cents per day.
 
Most VS systems can run at 1200 rpm or a bit more. Mine runs at 1500 rpm. It uses 200 watts at that rate.
Most of the country pays under 12 cents per kWh. My electric cost for our pool is under 50 cents per day.
Yeah, our utility currently has off-peak rates of 25 cents per kWh and peak rates up to 50 cents, depending on the specific plan.
 
3/4" pipe should be more than enough restriction. It is about the size of most eyeballs so I don't see an issue with that by itself. The pointing is secondary and only needed if skimming isn't working well. Besides, I don't think you will find an eyeball that small anyway. It is very odd design. But to confirm the operating point:

What is the filter pressure?

What is the suction side pipe size and how many individual runs are there pool to pump?

What is the distance pool to pump?

Can you also post a picture of the pad equipment.

There may be a way to throttle the pump to test the short pipe theory. However, one suggestion is to test the FC rise in the spa instead of the pool so you can get a larger rise in a shorter period of time.
 
3/4" pipe should be more than enough restriction. It is about the size of most eyeballs so I don't see an issue with that by itself. The pointing is secondary and only needed if skimming isn't working well. Besides, I don't think you will find an eyeball that small anyway. It is very odd design. But to confirm the operating point:

What is the filter pressure?

What is the suction side pipe size and how many individual runs are there pool to pump?

What is the distance pool to pump?

Can you also post a picture of the pad equipment.

There may be a way to throttle the pump to test the short pipe theory. However, one suggestion is to test the FC rise in the spa instead of the pool so you can get a larger rise in a shorter period of time.
  • Filter pressure on a clean filter is 10 psi.
  • Suction pipe size is 2-inch (skimmer box intake is 1-1/2 inches)
    • There is only one suction pipe from the pool to the pump, and one from the spa to the pump. The diverter valve controls which is getting suction (or both).
    • There are two return pipes controlled by another diverter valve: one exclusively to four returns in the spa and one with three pool returns and one spa return.
  • The distance from the skimmer box to the pump is about 25 feet. The distance from the pump to the spa return is about 25 feet, the first pool return is about 35 feet, the second is about 42 feet, and the last is about 50 feet.
The pad:
2020-08-06 13_28_30.jpg
 

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