Suction side cleaners

[sdmark]

I'm following this with interest after trying and returning a robot. Coming from a Kreeply Classic K70405.

First try, a $100 Vingli from Amazon, isn't terrible but is missing spots and getting stuck at stairs.

@nuke_twidget What did you wind up doing?

@Dirk On the Rebel v2, did you get the hose kit or just the head? What about the short hose connector and float thing? Wondering if I need to replace my aftermarket hose if I get a Rebel.

Interesting discussion of leaf traps. I never used that with the Kreepy Classic--my hose goes directly through the Pentair Vac Plate (K12068) so all large debris lands in the skimmer. I only have one skimmer and I believe the one drain at the bottom of the deep end is actually plugged (at the skimmer), so the pump's full suction is through the skimmer. Any reason to change that setup?

How good is the Rebel v2 on walls? Will it knock off any algae starting to form? To me that's half the point of any cleaner--to not have to brush. The other half is picking up debris.

Moved from here.

 

[Dirk]

@Dirk On the Rebel v2, did you get the hose kit or just the head? What about the short hose connector and float thing? Wondering if I need to replace my aftermarket hose if I get a Rebel.

My Rebel 2 is using all the same stuff my Rebel 1 did: hose, weight and leader hose. All good.

Edit: Ha! I had to look it up. That thing is a float. All this time I thought it was a weight! Show's ya how much I know!! Well, that makes sense, I guess the float helps keep the hose running straight up, so that the Rebel stays upright. Duh.

 

[sdmark]

My Rebel 2 is using all the same stuff my Rebel 1 did: hose, weight and leader hose. All good.

Nice! How old is the hose? Anything special about it? I've been using this Amazon hose for 4 years and most sections are still going strong, so I'd rather not replace it unless it's too heavy or something. BTW the hose is stamped "Made in the USA," so that's nice.

 

[Dirk]

Nice! How old is the hose? Anything special about it? I've been using this Amazon hose for 4 years and most sections are still going strong, so I'd rather not replace it unless it's too heavy or something. BTW the hose is stamped "Made in the USA," so that's nice.

Nothing special about the hose. It came with my Rebel 1. I think it's about five or six years old. I'm on my third leader hose. Those wear out first.

 

[sdmark]

Local pool store guy just mentioned an interesting point: robots and presumably wheeled suction cleaners have more trouble on slick fiberglass walls. He feels a the Kreepy 360042 with its large, pleated disk that sucks onto the wall may be best for fiberglass. That's possibly an over-generalization, but pool surface is a valid part of the discussion.

 

[mknauss]

My Active20 robot works great on my fiberglass pool.
I tried a suction cleaner when pool was new. Didn’t do well at all. Could not get out of the deep end.

 

[sdmark]

Marty, I checked out your blog page. I love the look of your pool! All those steps must be a challenge for cleaners, but they sure look inviting for lounging around .

The Evo 614iQ did a great job climbing my fiberglass walls when it wanted to. Unfortunately it's programmed to focus more on the bottom and lower edges, so the walls still had stripes where it didn't clean. It's frustrating to have a device that could do the whole job if it just had the right software update (e.g. a wall mode). Marina told me the Active 20/30s don't offer that either.

 

[mknauss]

My walls are never dirty. It climbs them, but there is nothing ever there.

 

[sdmark]

I lucked into a barely-used Pentair Rebel v2 on Craigslist from a couple who backfilled their pool after using it for a couple months. Still early days, but it seems to be doing pretty well. Definitely better than the Kreepy at the middle of the pool, but it usually doesn't climb very far up the slick fiberglass walls.

The main adjustment at this point is that it requires more suction that the Kreepy or Vingli, so I'm having to run the variable-speed pump faster, which has me wondering if I can run it for less time. My default before was 1900 rpm even with solar. The solar was removed (at least temporarily) when I replaced the roof. With the Rebel, I'm finding I have to run the pump at 2500rpm to turn its wheels at the recommended 16-18 rpm. 1900 rpm uses 432 watts of power; 2500 uses 882 watts, almost twice as much. I might be able to get away with 2000 rpm (494 watts)--still testing that.

I'm trying to decide if I need to install a flowmeter to get a more accurate read on required gpm to drive the Rebel and how long to run the pump.

 

[Dirk]

Sounds like you didn't get one of these with the Rebel. It comes with when you buy the entire Rebel kit (Rebel, hoses, etc). It's what you are after. You can buy one separately:

Amazon.com

Your Rebel should also connect to a short leader hose before it connects to the main hose. Did you get one of those?

Amazon.com

You should shop around for the best price for these, I just grabbed the links quickly. Be sure you get the right leader hose for your model Rebel (they might all be the same, I'm not sure).

 

[Dirk]

When I first set up my Rebel, I could not get it to function well while running the skimmer at the same time. So I installed a valve actuator that controls the three-way valve that balances my pump's suction between skimmer and vac. My automation moves the valve and adjusts the pump's RPM to be optimum for each function. I run the valve 100% skim, 0% vac for skimming, and 80% vac and 20% skim when vacuuming (the 20% still going through the skimmer is for safety concerns).

This solved for the vac's performance issues and it now runs great and will climb the walls if I let it (though I have a pebble finish). I adjust the vac RPMs using the flow gauge I reference above, but then turn it down a bit so it won't crawl out of the water. That said, I still need 2200 RPM to vac. So you aren't far off (though as you know the cost difference between 2200 and 2500 is logarithmic).

I cannot get the Rebel to vac well while the solar heater is active. It really wants to be on its own. But that is not an issue because I run it at 4:30AM (another safety concern).

 

[sdmark]

@Dirk Thanks very much for those details. Yes, I got the leader hose and float. No, I didn't get a flow meter, but the instruction book says if you're missing that, adjust flow to make the Rebel wheels turn at 16-18 rpm, so that's how I've been testing. I thought about buying one of those inline flow meters, but I like the idea of an actual gpm reading so I can calculate how many gallons I'm filtering in x hours.

For better or worse, my pool only has one skimmer. I'm running the Rebel through a vac plate and regulator combo that I used with the Kreepy. Pentair support confirmed that's still my only option if I want to skim and vacuum. Found this photo online, which doesn't show how the spring-loaded regulator works:

I don't think its skims much if at all with such high pump speeds--that sucks the regulator closed. The real test will be in windy weather when I've got lots of leaves on the surface and the bottom.

 

[Dirk]

Ah, so you don't have a dedicated suction line. Can you use that blue gizmo to shut down all the skimming and just have vacuuming? Run your vac and skimming separately, don't try to do them at the same time. See if that gives you both better skimming and better vacuuming.

Or get rid of the blue thing and plug your vac hose directly into the suction port under the skimmer basket. Run the vac when you need to, then remove it and let the skimming occur with the skimmer as originally designed. You might find that you need less overall runtime to do both jobs, when done separately, than you do when trying to do them together.

Any chance the pool has a pressure port that used to be used for a pressure-side vac (like with a booster pump and a Polaris setup)?

 

[Dirk]

I wouldn't try to talk you out of a flow meter. I have one and have made good use of it (though more for my solar heater than anything else). But you don't need one to calculate how many gallons you're filtering in x hours, because you don't need to calculate that. Pool turnover (once a day, twice a day, whatever) is a myth. That's not how you establish if you're filtering your water enough. You use your eyeballs for that, and they don't cost you anything!! Your pool is getting enough filtering if the water is clear. You can then start lessening your pump runtime, by say a half hour a day, and then look again. When you see that your pool is not staying clear enough to your liking, then you start adding runtime hours back until you do. That's all there is to it.

You might have to adjust your runtime based on season, or weather. A little more in the fall, less in summer, way less in winter, etc. But the test is still the same. If the water is clear, you're filtering enough, even if it's just an hour or two a day.

Pool turnover calculations are not required for proper sanitizing either, because that's done in about the first half hour after you dose your FC to the recommended level. The rest of your runtime is determined by how many leaves you want to skim off the surface, how long you need your vac to run to clear the bottom, and how clear you want your water to look. Forget worrying about gallons per hours filtered, that tells you nothing.

 

[sdmark]

The blue vac plate regulator (actually white in my pool) is not manually adjustable--it has a spring that I guess is supposed to keep a little of the skimmer going while giving regulated suction to the hose. I did try removing the skimmer and doing a direct connection to the suction line. That provided stronger suction, but then I have empty debris at the pump, which is out of sight behind a fence, and literally requires kicking to open and close securely. (Since the pump is below the top of the pool, if it's not secure, the pool drains.)

The pool plumbing has been like this since I bought the house in 1997. There is in fact an unused 1" PVC line that ends near the pump. Was that for a pressure cleaner? I moved the equipment many years ago but made sure to extend that pipe "just in case." So I think it's still connected to the pool.

I hope to avoid a lot of ongoing fiddling, taking out the cleaner, putting it back, etc. That was one of my concerns about robots. I got through 26 years leaving a Kreepy in the pool and connected year round, with or without solar turned on.

You make some great points about basing pump time on water clarity. I guess I've been doing that anyway, ignoring "turnover" if it looks good. I'm thinking that a flowmeter would let me quantify that though. If I figure out that I need to run the pump 3 hours at 25 gpm to keep it looking good, then I know filtering 4500 gallons on a clean filter is enough. If I need to increase flow to keep the Rebel moving (maybe get it to climb walls better), I can calculate how long to run the pump to turn the same 4500 gallons. If flow goes down over time, maybe I need to clean the filter. If I ever get the solar re-installed, I can figure out how much to increase speed. Etc.

I had never heard of FlowVis until reading your footer. Which model do you have? I'm intrigued by the FVJ-R that could retrofit my Jandy check valve into a flow meter. I saw another thread here mention the Blue-White F-300.

 

[Dirk]

There is in fact an unused 1" PVC line

The reason I asked is because I used to have a pressure-side vac system, and I converted that pressure line to a suction line, and then got rid of the booster pump and started running a Rebel. But the line needs to be at least 1.5", I think it would be too risky to try to vac through a 1" line. Whether suction or pressure, there would need to be a port in the side of your pool somewhere. It would look a little like a return, about the same depth. If you don't have a pressure or suction port in the pool, then you're stuck using the skimmer's suction port, like you are doing.

If I figure out that I need to run the pump 3 hours at 25 gpm

Everybody eventually figures out what works for them and their pool. I would only rebut that filtering is not a formula because there are too many variables. It's less about how many gallons run through your filter and more about the condition of your water, which varies: seasons, pollen, people, animals, wind-blown debris, filter condition, etc, etc. Mostly all seasonal or intermittent. But if you figure out a formula that works for you, that's all that matters.

And yes, you can use a flow meter to keep an eye on your filter-cleaning frequency, but the filter's pressure gauge does that job even better, so you don't need a FlowVis for that. Now, if solar gets back in the mix, that's where a FlowVis shines. You get the optimum flow rate from the solar panel manufacturer, or their manual, and then use your VS pump and the FlowVis to dial it in perfectly. That optimizes your heat/cost efficiency. And then you monitor the Vis through out the year, and/or your filter cleaning cycle, readjusting the RPMs to maintain the solar panel flow spec, based on if the filter is cleaner or dirtier. That's how I do it, anyway.

I don't know the exact model of my Vis. I bought it with its body, but always appreciated that they sell a model with which you can retrofit a Jandy check valve. FYI: a FlowVis is a check valve, so by swapping it into an existing check's body, you don't lose the check valve function, you only gain the flow rate function. Pretty cool.

 

[sdmark]

At some point years ago, I decided my filter's pressure gauge wasn't telling me much. It never seemed to go up much even when the filter was getting dirty. Maybe because the filter is kinda big for this pool size.

I have turned up some notes on rpm, e.g after not cleaning the filer for almost two years:
- Before cleaning, 2800rpm on pump, without solar, was not moving Kreepy much at all.
- After cleaning, 1800rpm is enough to move Kreepy without solar. Pressure gauge on filter shows 2.5psi.

I note that the current psi is about 4.9 after cleaning the filter ten days ago.

I owned a Pentair variable-flow pump for a while, where you could set the GPM. I found some extensive notes on testing I did with that. I have no memory of doing this, but "7/5/2008: attached vacuum and pressure gauges to IntelliFlo intake and discharge drain holes, respectively, to test friction loss." and then this:


I guess the point of that was to determine the head to use when looking at the pump's chart? And there's this from when I was calculating how long to run the pump to turn 9000 gallons (back when electricity cost $0.21 / kWh):



It looks like I decided on 7.5 hours @ 2075rpm, but at some point I reduced filtering with solar to four afternoon hours. Now, without solar, I'm filtering 2am - 6am. I'm thinking I need to increase the rpm (to keep the Rebel happy) and decrease the time.

The FlowVis looks interesting but the lines between 10 and 30 gpm are so close together it seems like it would be hard to differentiate much in the low range which is where I'm likely to run the pump?

 

[Dirk]

At some point years ago, I decided my filter's pressure gauge wasn't telling me much. It never seemed to go up much even when the filter was getting dirty. Maybe because the filter is kinda big for this pool size.

FYI: a significant increase in filter pressure, when all other variables are accounted for, means the filter needs cleaning or perhaps some other sort of maintenance. By "other variables" I'm talking about pump RPM and solar panels on/off or other water features engaged or not, etc.

But the inverse is not necessarily the opposite: little or no increase in filter pressure does not mean your filter does not need cleaning. You give a good example. A large filter might collect quite a bit of material before the pressure is affected. But if the bulk of that material is organic (which it most likely is) then while the filter might still be filtering, and not showing an increase in pressure, it's still affecting water quality. Your pool might look clear, but chlorine is still chewing on the organic material trapped in your filter. Which means that much less chlorine to do its job out in your pool, and that much more you have to dose.

So the filter should be cleaned periodically, regardless of filter pressure, must MUST be cleaned if filter pressure is high.

The FlowVis looks interesting but the lines between 10 and 30 gpm are so close together it seems like it would be hard to differentiate much in the low range which is where I'm likely to run the pump?

I don't pay much attention to my FlowVis at low RPM. I use it to some degree to check on flow for my vac (which runs at 2200 RPM), but mostly for flow through my solar panels, which is 40GPM at 2210RPM. I use my filter pressure gauge to check on filter status, but it barely moves because my filter never really gets very dirty. I clean it once a year, for the reason described above.

I don't use the filter gauge while solar or vac are running or during a high-speed skimmer run, because the filter pressure goes up for those. I check on my filter status only while in "normal" mode, which is 1500 RPM with nothing but my SWG running.

I vary the frequency of checking on pump and skimmer basket, based on season. Never less than once a week, but sometimes daily during windy leaf assaults.

I'm someone that specializes in over-thinking, but I've mellowed on these particular pool tasks as what I described works perfectly, and so doesn't require any additional worry or effort. (Hint, hint. )

I've collected all sorts of data on my pool, and built spreadsheets to house it all. So I'm not discouraging that. I'm in the middle of one of my "studies" as we speak. I've learned a lot by doing so. And eventually you'll sort through yours, too, and end up with an efficient MO for all your pool functions.

So geek on!!

 

[sdmark]

So geek on!!

LOL back at ya. Excellent points. It does sound like you have more patience (and appropriate plumbing) for ongoing fiddling than I do. My goal is to find two magic pump speeds, one with and one without solar, that will also run the cleaner and skimmer, then figure out how long to run the pump. I'll set those speeds in the Intellitouch; it turns on solar when the sun is out. Most maintenance attention after that is reactive: if the water looks cloudy, add chlorine. If the cleaner is slowing down, how long has it been since I emptied the skimmer. When the cleaner needs replacing, back into geek mode, reading and posting endlessly on this forum .

 

[sdmark]

The saga continues. I've confirmed that the Rebel mostly stays in the deep end. It actually seems to wander a little further towards shallow when I slow it down (2000 rpm) vs. keeping it at the recommended pace, which requires 2300-2500 rpm, but it still strongly favors the deep end. It does get the middle of the deep end, which the Kreepy did poorly. It goes maybe 1/3 of the way up the walls. Here's a time-lapse video of one hour with the pump at 2000 rpm:



[If the embedded video doesn't play, after clicking the Play button, click "YouTube" to view it in its own tab. Bigger too.]

Any thoughts on how to get it to spend more time in the shallow end?