Lux Man- The pool builder has seen it, and thinks it is scale. I also have what looks like calcium deposits on my glass tiles at the waterline and on the side of the spa. Would that still lead you to believe efflorescence, or does it sound more like scale?
Still Scaling with Negative CSI
- Thread starter MWigs
- Start date
Dang, you just threw a curve ball, "calcium looking, deposits on glass". Well, no that would have to come from the water in some way. BTW, since you are in Fl. and Jack's Magic is there too. I would call them. I speak to them fairly often and they are most helpful. He will do a water test for you and maybe he'll see something that we are not. I'm pretty sure the person you want to talk to is Rick. Make sure he understands you want to understand what it is and not just get rid of it for a month only to have it reappear. I have used most all their removal products with great success but it's keeping it gone is the key. In your case I would say the copper & scale treatment would lift it off. BTW- that treatment would require bypassing the heater.
I've looked these over, and I Just can't see what you are calling scale. I see the lighter color in the step picture, but it doesn't look like any kind of scale deposit I've ever seen. In these pics, there is no obvious deposition of anything I can see.
He has 3 skimmer pictures- a before acid wash, a during acid wash, and after. You can see a grey patch on the right side near the front lip. It is gone after he puts acid on it.
When we use the word scale we typically think of calcium right away. I question whether this is calcium but something else that has precipitated onto that surface or thru that grout to the surface. I was really thinking it was coming thru or from the grout itself until the OP said it is also on a glass surface at the water line.
So we don't get off on a wrong tangent, MWigs can you try to post a picture of the "scaling" on the glass tile. I'm questioning whether or not they are from the same source. How easy does it wipe off the tile?
When we use the word scale we typically think of calcium right away. I question whether this is calcium but something else that has precipitated onto that surface or thru that grout to the surface. I was really thinking it was coming thru or from the grout itself until the OP said it is also on a glass surface at the water line.
So we don't get off on a wrong tangent, MWigs can you try to post a picture of the "scaling" on the glass tile. I'm questioning whether or not they are from the same source. How easy does it wipe off the tile?
Please look to the right of the spillover to see calcium deposits. Am I wrong to call that scale?
Here is a closer view of the same area:
It is NOT easily removed. I tried a removal product and even a pressure washer that damaged the tile while trying to remove. The deposits along the water line are not as bad, but are still there. You can sort of see them in the spa (in the background of the photo of the spillover).
It is pouring here today, so I can't get any good photos right now.
Here is a closer view of the same area:
It is NOT easily removed. I tried a removal product and even a pressure washer that damaged the tile while trying to remove. The deposits along the water line are not as bad, but are still there. You can sort of see them in the spa (in the background of the photo of the spillover).
It is pouring here today, so I can't get any good photos right now.
The scale in the last photo looks like it is caused from the water being splashed or blown onto the wall next to the descent. If that's the case, I am sorry to tell you it will never go away.
Evidence in this picture suggests that's what is going on. It is a wet/dry area and there is nothing that can prevent solids from being deposited in that situation. In this photo, CSI will not matter, although having less hardness in the water will slow it. It is an unfortunate relality of having a waterfall in a pool. Anytime water dries on a surface like that, it leaves whatever it contained behind.
As for waterline scale, managing your pH is paramount which does affect your CSI. Waterline scaling potential can never be intirely eliminated, but potential for it can be reduced. Based on your water chemistry you have outlined, it should be easy in your pool. Your tile color will show it more than almost any color other than Black, but that is just a reality of that tile color range. I'm not insensitive to your wanting none of it, but I am just being honest.
Evidence in this picture suggests that's what is going on. It is a wet/dry area and there is nothing that can prevent solids from being deposited in that situation. In this photo, CSI will not matter, although having less hardness in the water will slow it. It is an unfortunate relality of having a waterfall in a pool. Anytime water dries on a surface like that, it leaves whatever it contained behind.
As for waterline scale, managing your pH is paramount which does affect your CSI. Waterline scaling potential can never be intirely eliminated, but potential for it can be reduced. Based on your water chemistry you have outlined, it should be easy in your pool. Your tile color will show it more than almost any color other than Black, but that is just a reality of that tile color range. I'm not insensitive to your wanting none of it, but I am just being honest.
Whatever it is, I'll bet muriatic acid will remove it. What "removal product" did you try?
A picture paints a thousand words. SALT+ maybe some calcium is what I am seeing in the picture. This is not what's forming on the bottom of your pool and in the skimmer opening.
So like I said before, as far as what's going on well below the water level which is what your original question was about, I'll go back to suspecting some form of efflorescence. If it were me I would give the National Plasters Council site a shot.
Are you brushing the pool regularly? Does the film come up when brushed with a stainless steel brush? If it does come up, I'd brush it every other day for 2 weeks. If it's still forming after that I'd conclude the grout has an issue. Your pump has to be run enough so the filter will collect what is being brushed into solution. BTW, I know brushing is not fun. When I have a tough pool to brush I will get in it, it's much easier on my back.
So like I said before, as far as what's going on well below the water level which is what your original question was about, I'll go back to suspecting some form of efflorescence. If it were me I would give the National Plasters Council site a shot.
Are you brushing the pool regularly? Does the film come up when brushed with a stainless steel brush? If it does come up, I'd brush it every other day for 2 weeks. If it's still forming after that I'd conclude the grout has an issue. Your pump has to be run enough so the filter will collect what is being brushed into solution. BTW, I know brushing is not fun. When I have a tough pool to brush I will get in it, it's much easier on my back.
You shouldn't brush a finish less than a year old with a SS brush.
If you really want expert opinion, look up Kim Skinner at pool help, or by the name onbalance here at TFP. He's about as good as there is if you ask me.
If you really want expert opinion, look up Kim Skinner at pool help, or by the name onbalance here at TFP. He's about as good as there is if you ask me.
duraleigh - I used Oceancare Calcium Releaser, an NTP product. My pool builder gave it to me to try. I have used muriatic acid sparingly...I was afraid it might harm the grout. Both required way more elbow grease than I was willing to put into it. The pressure washer was a little better; until it started chipping the glass tile.
Lux Man - As I stated before, I do NOT brush frequently. I have tried a small stainless brush on the tile and pebble, and it doesn't remove it easily...or at all. I will investigate the efflorescence avenue. That may make sense. The pool was started with Scale Free, and I continued to add maintenance doses, so either the product doesn't work or my pool has something other than scale.
Patrick_B - Thanks for the lead to Kim. I will look him up.
Lux Man - As I stated before, I do NOT brush frequently. I have tried a small stainless brush on the tile and pebble, and it doesn't remove it easily...or at all. I will investigate the efflorescence avenue. That may make sense. The pool was started with Scale Free, and I continued to add maintenance doses, so either the product doesn't work or my pool has something other than scale.
Patrick_B - Thanks for the lead to Kim. I will look him up.
That's true but believe the pool was started in June of 2013 or possibly before.
..another vote for efflorescence. It's originating from the cement/mortar not the pool water.
The mfg's materials I was given for my WetEdge Luna Quartz plaster said to use a SS brush initially and for the life of the plaster.
I don't think on the waterfall area there is anything but deposition.
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If WetEdge told me to do that I would. My PB was emphatic that I not use one until my Quartz was a year old. Good to hear, but Ive yet to use one.
You would think so, but I feel it's leaching from between the tile (grout=porosity) and only being deposited on the glass surface. I'ts very common in Latin america where they opt for glass tile on many architectural builds and pools; combined with less than favorable concrete blends it's almost like magic.
I agree with those who have told you that is not calcium scaling, at least not in the classical sense. The partial evidence is that the water is not scale forming.
And as others have told you, the calcium scale on the tile areas is not the same thing that is happening in the pool and below the water line.
It is also not efflorescence in the classical sense. It is not from moisture/water coming from behind the pool shell and depositing calcium on the surface.
What I think has been happening are several possible things. Most pebble aggregate pools are acid washed before filling with water when new. That creates an etched, rough, and porous cement surface (the cement binder surrounds all of the pebbles) that is separate and apart from the pebbles that remain unaffected by the acid wash. Also, I believe the plaster applicator added calcium chloride to the mix (hardening accelerator) that is leaching out of the plaster matrix and then depositing itself onto the rough or porous cement part of the pool surface, not the pebble aggregate. Calcium chloride is very soluble and some of it does dissolve out of the plaster finish, and can re-deposit itself as scale onto the porous cement when it reacts with balanced pool water.
The bottom line? That condition will probably continue for a long time, and there is not much that can be done to rectify it.
And as others have told you, the calcium scale on the tile areas is not the same thing that is happening in the pool and below the water line.
It is also not efflorescence in the classical sense. It is not from moisture/water coming from behind the pool shell and depositing calcium on the surface.
What I think has been happening are several possible things. Most pebble aggregate pools are acid washed before filling with water when new. That creates an etched, rough, and porous cement surface (the cement binder surrounds all of the pebbles) that is separate and apart from the pebbles that remain unaffected by the acid wash. Also, I believe the plaster applicator added calcium chloride to the mix (hardening accelerator) that is leaching out of the plaster matrix and then depositing itself onto the rough or porous cement part of the pool surface, not the pebble aggregate. Calcium chloride is very soluble and some of it does dissolve out of the plaster finish, and can re-deposit itself as scale onto the porous cement when it reacts with balanced pool water.
The bottom line? That condition will probably continue for a long time, and there is not much that can be done to rectify it.
onBalance - Thank you for taking the time to review this thread and give me your opinion of what is going on with my pool. This is not good news for me, but I understand what you are saying about not being able to rectify it. However, doesn't the builder or the pool finish company bear some liability here? I paid six figures for a black bottom pool that slowly turns gray. I could pay to drain and acid wash twice a year to keep it black, but I am told that will dramatically reduce the life of the finish (that has a lifetime guarantee).
I'm not asking for legal advice here. I just want to know what you would do if you were in my shoes. I am way too meticulous to just live with this. At best, I guess they could refinish the pool, but what is going to stop it from happening again?
If you want to pursue this, you need to determine if calcium chloride was added to the plaster mix. Calcium chloride should not be added to color plaster. If it was, you stand a good chance of having some evidence to pursue with the PB or plasterer.
You can obtain a small chunk of plaster from the main drain of the pool or the spa and send to a cement lab for analysis (cost of about $100) to determine if any calcium chloride was added. That would provide a basis to pursue further.
If you have further questions, please PM me.
You can obtain a small chunk of plaster from the main drain of the pool or the spa and send to a cement lab for analysis (cost of about $100) to determine if any calcium chloride was added. That would provide a basis to pursue further.
If you have further questions, please PM me.
I met with the Pebble Tec rep and he could not confirm if calcium chloride was used. He said they are allowed up to 2% calcuim. As I suspected, he would not address the fact that I wasn't concerned how much was used, but rather IF it was used. He said they (the installer) couldn't have used much because the pool was installed in June, and it would have set up much too fast in the Florida heat. Not a great answer. He referred me to a person at Jack's Magic. I don't take the PTec rep as a chemical expert. He suggested installing a pH controller and keeping it to 7.2. I went back to my concern that the water isn't the issue (because it is balanced). He continued to push me off to the Jack's Magic guy as the expert on chemicals, and "Let's see what he says". I am guessing that there are other negative effects of having corrosive water (which I would certainly get at a pH level of 7.2).