Startup SWG chlorinator salt for new pool

however I come by it, works in my pool.
i get what your saying the key is to standardize my testing which i feel i have done with outside testing, when pool is back to normal, like say 70 cya FC 5 target , but i will head for FC6, i will test cya outside then get a result the same under led light inside

Whatever target is i will go 1 or 2 higher

so i will let it drift back to FC 16 and then do a oclt test
 
Very high FC can mess with the CYA test, but with the buffer you should be fine. To be on the safe side you could run a test with two drops of buffer.

When did you last test CYA? I can see your last addition about a month ago, but no test result. But let's say that was eighty back then, which you conservatively rounded up to 90 for the SLAM. In a month, it might have come down from 80 to 70. Some extra losses to backwashing maybe and rain dilutions. Maybe it wasn't 80 to start with, but 70. Then some accelerated CYA oxidation by slamming for 90. More backwashing during the Slam.

But it would certainly explain your chlorine losses during the Slam.

See how far down towards slam level 16 for CYA 40 it gets during the rest of the day and run an OCLT on that level. Make sure to do the evening test after dark, and before any direct sunshine hits the pool in the morning, ideally before sunrise, to make sure that there really are no UV losses messing with your OCLT.
 
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When testing CYA at very high chlorine levels, you should neutralise the chlorine in your sample first, because all that chlorine attached to CYA can prevent some CYA from clouding out. You can do that by adding a drop of the buffer solution from the TA-test to the 5ml water sample before adding the CYA reagent.
This may be off-topic and better suited to the deep end, but do you have any references for this?

Reading this thread spiked my memory and I dug out of collected literature to reread this paper on Interference in Melamine–based Determination of Cyanuric Acid Concentration by Doug Latta. He found the test gave over-estimates of CYA particularly in pools maintained with trichloro-s-triazine (trichlor). His solution was the opposite of yours. Rather than neutralising the chlorine with thiosulfate, he superchlorinated with a drop of sodium hypochlorite (pool chlorine).
 
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yep thats what i think its too clear to be needing slam, but whatever.....but why from 90 to 40 thats a huge drop does slam make cya less or is high chlorine messing with the test....
strange i was so careful adding CYA trying not to overshoot. i bought all from local Bunnings hardware chain, every time i added i did not see much of a increase, seemed to be around 40 or 50 , then i bought a bit more expensive brand from pool shop and bam 90, i realize its probably all the same , but coincidence the brand name seemed to work
I remember you taking forever to bring your CYA up. You were so careful about it. I was surprised to later read 80-90. I didn't look into it (in your thread), but I did find it odd. Now that you've retested CYA, along with these weird FC losses you've had all along, it makes more sense to me that it didn't drop from 90 to 40, rather it was never 90. Testing error. Chemical interference. Who knows?

From my perspective, it doesn't matter. You've been having trouble with the SLAM, you've tested your CYA and found it to be wildly off. That explains pretty much everything. It's Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is likely the correct one. You never had 90. I'm not discouraging you from exploring the why of it, I just can't help you with it. I'm not even familiar with the buffering you and mg are discussing.

Your CYA is 40, proceed with the SLAM (or ending the SLAM) with this new updated data.

And learn from your experience if you ever need to SLAM again. You'll test CYA just before you SLAM. You'll adjust your pH just before you SLAM. You'll use what you learned this time about maintaining the SLAM FC level. Etc. Ha, more likely you'll never let your FC get away from you again and never need to SLAM!
 
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This may be off-topic and better suited to the deep end, but do you have any references for this?

Reading this thread spiked my memory and I dug out of collected literature to reread this paper on Interference in Melamine–based Determination of Cyanuric Acid Concentration by Doug Latta. He found the test gave over-estimates of CYA particularly in pools maintained with trichloro-s-triazine (trichlor). His solution was the opposite of yours. Rather than neutralising the chlorine with thiosulfate, he superchlorinated with a drop of sodium hypochlorite (pool chlorine).

My source is Chem Geek:

If there is chlorine in the water sample, then the chlorinated cyanurates similarly can interfere with the formation of melamine cyanurate where the worst case would be that the CYA level reads too low by the amount of FC. This can be easily overcome by adding a chlorine neutralizer to the water sample, such as a few drops of R-0007 reagent.

I've read the paper you are referring to, and I remember controversial discussion about it here, but I can't find that now.
 
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And learn from your experience if you ever need to SLAM again. You'll test CYA just before you SLAM. You'll adjust your pH just before you SLAM. You'll use what you learned this time about maintaining the SLAM FC level. Etc.

Perfect training for the big challenge coming with your (meaning Fiesta's) step father's pool - that one sounds like the real deal...
 
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i get what your saying the key is to standardize my testing which i feel i have done with outside testing, when pool is back to normal, like say 70 cya FC 5 target , but i will head for FC6, i will test cya outside then get a result the same under led light inside

Whatever target is i will go 1 or 2 higher

so i will let it drift back to FC 16 and then do a oclt test
It's important that you find what works for you. That's what makes pool maintenance palatable. You seem to take in what others advise, and are gracious and respectful and appreciative about it. That's what this forum is all about. Once you take everything in, you make an informed decision. If you like outside testing, then continue with that. That is, in fact, the TFP-recommended method, so it's not like there's anything wrong with it. It's my suggestion (testing indoors) that is the "anti-establishment" idea. I took in all the various opinions and instructions about testing CYA, and found my own way works better for me.

Of course, all that politeness said, I gotta point out that your skew on outside testing might have taken you down a rougher road. If I'm piecing the story together correctly, you didn't check your CYA right before the SLAM because of the sunlight conditions. And instead relied on an old test result, which turned out to be, well, troublesome for you. I'm not trying to rub that in, merely pointing out the flaw in your outside testing MO. Sticking to outside testing is fine, you just need to adjust your method so that you can test whenever you need to...

The rest of your post is dead on!
 
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I've read the paper you are referring to, and I remember controversial discussion about it here, but I can't find that now.

There we go:

As for the size of a drop, the Taylor bottles have 24 drops per milliliter -- each drop is nowhere near 1 ml in size. The Taylor CYA test uses 15 ml total and Doug Latta's procedure uses 1 drop of sodium hypochlorite. If I assume this is 12.5% chlorinating liquid, then this would raise the FC by 347 ppm (the Latta paper says the sample size is 10 ml so would be an even higher FC). Note that he says to do this after the melamine cyanurate precipitate has formed. Based on the fact that the chlorinated cyanurates won't as readily form a precipitate, the fact that he saw a drop in measured CYA reading is understandable. It is possible that instead of removing interference from CC, he was introducing his own interference from chlorine bound to CYA.
 
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I remember you taking forever to bring your CYA up. You were so careful about it. I was surprised to later read 80-90. I didn't look into it (in your thread), but I did find it odd. Now that you've retested CYA, along with these weird FC losses you've had all along, it makes more sense to me that it didn't drop from 90 to 40, rather it was never 90. Testing error. Chemical interference. Who knows?

From my perspective, it doesn't matter. You've been having trouble with the SLAM, you've tested your CYA and found it to be wildly off. That explains pretty much everything. It's Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is likely the correct one. You never had 90. I'm not discouraging you from exploring the why of it, I just can't help you with it. I'm not even familiar with the buffering you and mg are discussing.

Your CYA is 40, proceed with the SLAM (or ending the SLAM) with this new updated data.

And learn from your experience if you ever need to SLAM again. You'll test CYA just before you SLAM. You'll adjust your pH just before you SLAM. You'll use what you learned this time about maintaining the SLAM FC level. Etc. Ha, more likely you'll never let your FC get away from you again and never need to SLAM!
yep I have learnt a lot , been a pain but now I know the things that need to be done, but I really will keep it at and above target.....so i am not slamming again...
 
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i am sure that i have read that high fc over time can burn off cya
this does not explain the fc reduction over night which, barring test error can only be organics
As I mentioned, the exploration of the whys can go on and on, no problem. But the focus is the SLAM. He's got the corrected CYA level and the corrected target FC. The SLAM continues at the new FC level until the three "slam-is-done" criteria are met. Simple. Just follow the SLAM instructions to the letter, don't shortcut...
 
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i am sure that i have read that high fc over time can burn off cya
this does not explain the fc reduction over night which, barring test error can only be organics

I think to a certain degree it can. It is exactly this "burning off" (i.e. oxidation) of CYA that is one of the mechanisms of overnight chlorine loss, together with other oxidation processes (e.g. pool cover, etc). The 1ppm OCLT criteria covers typical CYAs and FCs, but with such a high FC/CYA ratio that Fiesta had, the loss would certainly be beyond 1ppm - by how much, I don't know. There probably (Edit: I should say "certainly") still was some algae involved in the beginning. The OCLT at lower FC will tell...

@FIESTA62, speaking of pool cover is a good point. You have one, right? Was it off during the SLAM? Make sure that you don't reintroduce algae via the cover, it might need some contact with SLAM level water.
 
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I usually have cover on full time but during slam I have left off, I will put it on today to let slam water do its thing

last night FC 22.5 this morning FC 21....much better , that was 10ml testing

pouring rain here no sun so I will just wait it out till it drops back to 16, will do another CYA at that level and OCLT .....
 
Not that it's relevant to help Fiesta - as Dirk pointed out, only SLAM at right FC level for the CYA and OCLT at this level will - but since I'm sure that the question will pop up, here is a post from Chem Geek about overnight chlorine losses. The whole thread gives some insight to the background of the OCLT criteria.

First of all, you can completely ignore the type of degradation you see with chlorinating liquid and bleach since that is ONLY for very concentrated solutions and varies as the square of the concentration. Even at yellow/mustard SLAM levels, the concentration of chlorine is over 50,000 times smaller than bleach and the rate of breakdown is over a billion times slower.

Losses in terms of rates are ALWAYS proportional to the concentrations of the reacting chemical species. The only time you look at absolute quantities rather than concentrations is when the reactions are so fast that the net loss is limited by the chemical being added such as adding hydrogen peroxide to dechlorinate. SLAM levels have higher chlorine bound to CYA and chlorine unbound to CYA levels so will have chlorine react faster and therefore drop faster from such reactions.

The loss of chlorine when there is no sunlight comes from the following sources:

  • Chlorine oxidation of CYA.
  • Chlorine oxidation of pool covers
  • Chlorine oxidation of ammonia/chloramines and organics or other chemicals in the water (e.g. HEDP, Polyquat)
  • Chlorine oxidation of metal and other materials
For chlorine oxidation of CYA, see Degradation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) where it may be hypochlorite ion that participates in such oxidation and that it would therefore occur faster at higher pH (see the fourth graph in this post). Note that because CYA is a hypochlorous acid buffer, when the pH is higher the HOCl is largely prevented from dropping but that means that hypochlorite ion (OCl-) rises a lot more. At normal FC/CYA levels, the CYA loss may be around 2-3 ppm per month from CYA losses I've seen in my pool over many months and repeated testing over many years which implies a chlorine loss of 5-7.5 ppm per month or 0.17 to 0.25 ppm FC per day. If one were at SLAM levels with the pH at 7.5, then this is around 10 times higher so 1.7 to 2.5 ppm FC per day. In practice, we don't see the losses be this high (which may be because my FC/CYA ratios varies from 7.5% to 15%), but if one does a SLAM at higher pH because one didn't lower the pH a lot before the SLAM than the chlorine oxidation of CYA may push one over the 1 ppm OCLT limit (remember OCLT is done overnight so normally 8-12 hours so at regular SLAM the chlorine oxidation of CYA may be 1.7*(8/24) = 0.6 to 2.5*(12/24) = 1.25). Wojtowicz in his paper claims much higher CYA losses and associated chlorine demand.

Nevertheless, there are reports of CYA loss during extended SLAM, but that also includes losses during the day that may occur from sunlight breakdown creating more hydroxyl radicals that may oxidize CYA more quickly.

In my pool, I have a pool cover and it contributes to most of my losses which with no sunlight are 0.7 ppm FC per day at regular FC/CYA levels so I figure that perhaps 0.2 of that is from oxidation of CYA and 0.5 is from oxidation of the cover. This is at 88ºF water temperature and the chlorine loss rate will be temperature dependent which is why chlorine usage drops so dramatically in colder water. Again, these are 24-hour losses while the OCLT is 1/3rd to 1/2 that since it's generally over 8-12 hours.

Also don't forget that there is a +/- 10% error on readings and while we are looking at relative readings, not absolute, I doubt people can do much better than +/- 5%. 1 ppm FC loss with such an error would be seen at an FC of only 20 ppm. So a high FC SLAM could make an OCLT difficult. This is why I think doing an OCLT at something more like 10 ppm FC is better, but we started out recommending it for a SLAM as a criteria for when to stop a SLAM. We've seen this criteria be difficult for some people to achieve, especially when they have high FC levels due to higher CYA levels. Also, one would expect to have higher CYA losses and therefore higher chlorine demand at higher CYA levels even if the hypochlorite ion concentration were constant.

The basic idea of the OCLT is sound in that it certainly detects higher than normal chlorine demand, but for "normal" chlorine losses it can be difficult to pass that test let alone measure it accurately.

The bottom line is that we don't have good data for the chlorine loss rate oxidizing CYA and the Wojtowicz numbers are much higher than normally seen.

Look at this thread from this post on for the level of craziness demanding precise meeting of all three criteria in spite of the high FC for this half-SLAM. Do we really believe that people measuring a 10 ml water sample are doing better than +/- 5% in such measurement which would be +/- 0.5 ml? Seriously? A 5% error at 34 ppm FC would be 1.7 ppm FC which exceeds the 1 ppm OCLT limit. I'll bet that the next day this person might have the CC at 0.5 or below instead of the current 1.0, but that they won't hit 34 ppm and might be at 32 or 36 at which point people will say "you're failing the OCLT".

This is the problem with over-simplifying everything. While it's nice to have simple criteria, they can't realistically be applied across broad ranges. The actual effects are proportional so real criteria would be proportional, but of course that's more complicated not only for the extra multiplying math involved but the measurement errors that have both proportional (percentage) error AND absolute (+/- 1 drop) error.

Again, not important to read this to successfully complete a SLAM. For those interested in the backgrounds, there are many interesting discussions in the deep end, like that one above.
 
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