Stains-what to do?

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pabeader: I turned the SWG off 7 days ago, hoping this will contribute to lowering the FC. If I read the information from Pool School correctly, all the other chemical levels seem to be within range. Does that seem correct?

Also, I tried the a vitamin C tablets/chlorine tablet procedure you mentioned earlier on some of the stains. The vitamin C tablets created their own stain, sort of brownish, but did not take away the original stain. I tried brushing this brownish stain, but nothing happened. That stain was dissolved by the chlorine tablet. The chlorine tablet itself had no effect on removing the stain. Given this, I inclined to believe the stains are metallic in nature, rather than organic. What do you think? Should I wait until the FC comes down before I try to treat the stains? If I do attempt to treat the stains at this point, what should I do?

Many thanks.
 
Hello again Henry!

So please forgive me in that some of the following advice may sound like its from the pool store - oh, the irony ;)

Let's not mess with the stains until you've identified them...no AA for you, I'm afraid ;) AA can turn a copper stain brown-blackish on the odd occasion and that may be what as happened to you (other times it will lift it.) I don't want you to darken all the stains.

Next experiment...if you have some dry acid, put that in a sock and hold to a stain area. See if it lightens the stain.

If it does, an acid wash may be the best remedy, or spot treatment depending on the scope of stains. You could try a "wet" acid wash if you didnt want to go the full route as the tech had suggested to you. Can you post a picture?

If the dry acid works and you'd rather not acid wash your new surface (I don't know. Lot about plaster but imagine this shortens its life) you might try this tool for removing spot stain areas with MA Amazon.com : Purity Pool OS Out Spot Stain Remover : Swimming Pool Stain Removers : Patio, Lawn Garden

Another approach AS YOUVE ALREADY HEARD ;) to more positively identifying stains would be to use Jack's Magic Stain ID kit: Amazon.com: JACK Garden

Which brings you BACK to the beginning of your thread: if your salt is 3500 and your TDS is 4500 the MY take is your TDS is only 1000 fir example and jack's stain I'd kit should work. But please talk to jacks to confirm!

Depending on the result, you could then treat with the associated Jack's stain removal product. Javk's Magic metal sequestrants are one of the recommended brands here at TFP. The other is Metal Magic. Jack's is mfg in Florida, as I recall, and they do have a help line to discuss problematic stains, so that might be a route to go. (Actually, Metal Magic has a great guy too at proteam, so really, either will give you phone support if needed...but Jack's may be more useful to you due to the brownish results because the have the stain ID kit.)

Re: FC level...can you try to dilute a sample with 50% bottled or tap water get a ballpark read? What percentage had your T15 been running prior to shutting it off? How long do you run your filter each day?

I'm glad you now have a kit that you can read true and higher FC because it will ultimately help you manage your water...SO why not try to get a full reading...because you're going to need to figure out how it got that high to dial in a better balance...AND you'll need to do this to effectively treat or manage staining and metal testing.

You can lower FC if desired with sodium thiosulphate (eg: Amazon.com : In The Swim Pool Water Chlorine Neutralizer - 2.25 lbs. : Sodium Thiosulfate : Patio, Lawn Garden)

Let us know your results in each case and maybe we can sleuth out the cause/effect here.

Also...do you have a heater, and if so, does it have a bypass?

Lastly, can you recall your average ph reading throughout the summer? Keeping ph lower (eg. 7.2) is better if you do have metals, and uncontrolled high PH is what can precipitate staining.

Since you just did a plaster job though, I'd like to try to find one of the TFPers who is a plaster expert to see if he has more authoritative advice or if he thinks you need to further contact the folks who did your diamond bright...I'll see if I can dig up his name to review.

There are some "tough" staining combos that happen, such as iron phosphate scale etc. that don't always behave or respond to normal identification and treatment routes. But lets first see if dry acid and/or stain ID kit can shed any light.

Cheers!
 
Henry M said:
pabeader: I turned the SWG off 7 days ago, hoping this will contribute to lowering the FC. If I read the information from Pool School correctly, all the other chemical levels seem to be within range. Does that seem correct?

Also, I tried the a vitamin C tablets/chlorine tablet procedure you mentioned earlier on some of the stains. The vitamin C tablets created their own stain, sort of brownish, but did not take away the original stain. I tried brushing this brownish stain, but nothing happened. That stain was dissolved by the chlorine tablet. The chlorine tablet itself had no effect on removing the stain. Given this, I inclined to believe the stains are metallic in nature, rather than organic. What do you think? Should I wait until the FC comes down before I try to treat the stains? If I do attempt to treat the stains at this point, what should I do?

Many thanks.
Click to expand...

In here you say "The vitamin C tablets created their own stain, sort of brownish, but did not take away the original stain. I tried brushing this brownish stain, but nothing happened. That stain was dissolved by the chlorine tablet. The chlorine tablet itself had no effect on removing the stain. "

What I get from this is:
Vitamin C changed stain to brownish
Chlorine made brownish go away
Original stain is still there.

That seems odd, since the C caused a change, the original stain should be gone, or at least lessened. I wonder if a second round of C would do the trick.

We've had others that had a similar reaction. C turned the stain Black! But after about 30 mins the Black was gone and a nice white spot was left behind.
 
^turning black means its oxidizing but the problem is that it does not always finish oxidizing and if you treat with AA you run the risk of leaving a stain that is even harder to remove.

Re: Jacks and Salt Water...I did find this re sequestrant: but didn't see anything re the test kit and salt, so best course is still to call them: (800)348-1656

I have a salt pool or a pool with high total dissolved solids. Should I be using The Blue, Pink, Purple, or Magenta Stuff?

You should be using The Purple Stuff or The Magenta Stuff, they are both formulated for salt pools and pools with high total dissolved solids.
Click to expand...

UPDATE: I read the pro/tech instructions for Jack's copper stain solution and the treatment guide says "up to 4000 ppm TDS for salt pools" -- so I'm betting that with the stain ID kit, if you dilute a little (eg 1/8th of volume) the stain IDkit should work, because the stain ID kit is just the different treatment formulations.

Here's the link: Technical Information - For Professionals - Jack's Magic Products, Inc.

So...took us a while but to answer your very first question...should work to 4,000 TDS so you do not need to drain nearly as much water to use te ID kit! ;)
 
Many thanks to all of you for you suggestions. You've gone above & beyond, and it is very much appreciated. Attempted to attach photos. Couldn't get my shadow out of the way. The Diamond Brite color is "Cool Blue". Hope the blotchiness of the discolorization is clear. It appears throughout the bottom of the pool.

Want to avoid full acid wash if at all possible. Perhaps a wet wash, but not much beyond that.

The installer recommended out t-15 unit be set for 70%, and it has been at that setting until last Wednesday, when I turned it off to help lower the FC. There is no heater.

We've a variable speed motor that runs at different speeds for 20 hours day.

Will talk with Jack's, to discuss your recommendations. Yes, they are located in Florida. Will use their stain ID kit. Will also try dry acid, and post findings. Many thanks.Pool Stain 2 (1).jpgPool Stain 2 (2).jpgPool Stain 1.jpg
 
Swampwoman & pabeader: Again, thanks for your comments. Just got off the phone with the tech at Jack's Magic. He confirmed that salt is actually part of the TDS level, so subtracting the salt level from the TDS level will provide a more accurate reading of TDS, so using their Stain ID Kit is OK. But he did mention that, actually, the chlorine level is too high to use their Stain ID Kit, that it's better to wait until it gets down to about 2 or 3 ppm. He indicated that it was probably better to let it drop naturally, as opposed to adding any other chemicals to do so. Soooo, will wait for the TC level to drop, and then try their Stain ID Kit.

Have to add that I wouldn't know which direction to head had it not been for your most helpful comments.
 
Excellent news, Henry.

One last note in case stain remediation is not effective or if you have any reason to believe your new plaster job was not performed correctly:

This thread is by onbalance, the fellow I recall having expert opinions on plaster jobs. Not sayin this is your case, but have a read so that you're knowledgeable about the phenom or can message him if you'd like him to take a look at your pics ;) Gray Mottling Plaster Discoloration

Cheers!
 
If the "stain ID test" doesn't provide results, then it is possibly a workmanship and material issue.

The plaster pictures seem to show some darker gray areas along with lighter areas. Gray Mottling discoloration is often caused by adding too much calcium chloride to the mix (which causes a graying hue to develop) and then doing late hard troweling which increases the graying of white cement which pool plaster contains.

If the plaster finisher also happens to apply water to the surface while troweling (to help make it more "workable" after it becomes somewhat hard), then that causes a lighter or whiter color to develop (later in time) by resulting in excessive porosity of that portion of the plaster surface. If an acid bath treatment is applied to the surface now, it might even out the color (lighten it) somewhat, but at the expense of etching the plaster surface and aging it too.
 
Can't thank you all enough! Once the FC levels come down a bit, will do the stain ID kit, and go from there. When the tech from SGM looked at the pool, he, of course, said the Diamond Brite "did not fail", and the discoloration was, in fact, mottling. This mottling occurs randomly & only on the bottom; the sides & steps are fine. The comments from onBalance are well taken. I really want to avoid etching, etc. If it comes to it, I'd rather live with the discoloration than run the possibility of premature aging (referring to the pool, not me).
 

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The SGM tech is correct, the Diamond Brite quartz aggregate did not fail, it is the cement portion (that is added along with the quartz aggregate to make the plaster mix) that is affected and discolors and mottles due to poor workmanship.
 
The latest in the ongoing saga saw the installer & a tech rep from SGM here, at the same time, looking at my pool. To their comments & questions about managing my pool water chemistry, to the quality of tap water in this region, I responded with the information all of you have so kindly provided. Both finally acknowledged the condition is mottling, not staining. SGM tech proposed draining & acid washing. I said no, using the information from onBalance as my argument. Finally, the SGM tech suggested a milder form of acid washing that does not require emptying the pool. When I asked if that process results in etching, he replied not as abrasive as dry acid washing. I told him I didn't have much faith in that, either and asked what if the mottling returns after, say, 60 days. He replied if it does, they (meaning SGM) will resurface. I said I'd give it a go. I welcome any comments, for most of you know more than I about things like this.
 
Henry M said:
The latest in the ongoing saga saw the installer & a tech rep from SGM here, at the same time, looking at my pool. To their comments & questions about managing my pool water chemistry, to the quality of tap water in this region, I responded with the information all of you have so kindly provided. Both finally acknowledged the condition is mottling, not staining. SGM tech proposed draining & acid washing. I said no, using the information from onBalance as my argument. Finally, the SGM tech suggested a milder form of acid washing that does not require emptying the pool. When I asked if that process results in etching, he replied not as abrasive as dry acid washing. I told him I didn't have much faith in that, either and asked what if the mottling returns after, say, 60 days. He replied if it does, they (meaning SGM) will resurface. I said I'd give it a go. I welcome any comments, for most of you know more than I about things like this.
Click to expand...


I would recommend getting that in writing!
 
Thanks for following up on your thread. I think you are on the right track. I agree completely that mottling is preferable to etching and premature aging.
 
In the end: SGM did provide for my pool to be resurfaced, at no cost to me. But dealing with SGM was a nightmare. They did not respond to any of my forms of communication. I used the services of the BBB, of which SGM is not a member, but it did get their attention. Finally file a complaint with our county Consumer Protection Bureau. Throughout all of this, SGM never communicated directly with me. I would urge any contractor who has any association with Southern Grouts & Mortar to be very watchful of them.
 
Good that your situation was resolved. It is not uncommon for manufacturers to prefer to deal with their customers, who is the plaster applicator and/or the pool builder.
 
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