Spa draining to pool level

[AerospaceCowboy]

Greetings. I’m a new pool owner with a fairly complicated setup. My current issue is that the spa will drain to the level of the pool. The spa is fairly large (12 person) and it drains about 5 inches an hour or more. The spa has three pumps that create an overflow feature into the pool. The spa was draining shortly after I moved in and replacing the Jandy check valves did the trick. That was about about 4 months ago. I replaced the three valves again this time around but that did not fix the problem. The spa does have pop ups but I am unable to find a check valve above ground.

I have had 2 pool guys out and they haven’t been able to identify the problem. Below is a list of things I have tried.

Replaced the three Jandy valves on the spa overflow pumps.

The spa had two pressure relief valves. One of the pool guys took the liberty to cut these out and cap off the location they were, but the problem remains. He thought that this was the reason for the spa drain and said they were unnecessary, hard to find, and expensive. After a conversation with a Leslie’s employee, I think they may have been a safety feature. I was extremely unhappy and I am considering finding a new maintenance company for not asking before they removed them. This can be a topic for a future post but any advice on this would be appreciated, especially if this is the source of the problem.

I noticed the actuator that switches between spa and pool was cracked open and not always completing a full turn. I was able to open the valve up myself, re-align it, lube it up, and it seems to be functioning normally at this time. However, the spa continues to drain.

I can hear an audible sound of water flowing through what is labeled as one of two cleaners. It’s a little hard to tell exactly where it’s flowing through but this is my best guess. I haven’t seen anything in my research about this being a possible source for the spa draining but it’s something I noticed.

Any advice is much appreciated. I’m learning an enormous amount about pool maintenance but this one has me pulling my hair out trying to figure out.

 

[Oceansol]

Somewhere in that system there's a check valve that is broken or the seal isn't working. Mine did, and I replaced the innerds from this: Jandy 7235 Straight Swing Check Valve 1-1/2in. - 2in. SPG

 

[mknauss]

Let's ask one of our In Floor Cleaning system experts to chime in -- @proavia

 

[proavia]

Wow - looks like 3 water distribution valves for the infloor. Do you know which water distribution valve controls the spa?

Looking at this pic

my guess is the low profile water distribution valve (with the see thru lid) is for the spa. If this is true, the water from the spa is possibly draining back into the system via the Jandy valve into the 'Return Pump' line. Try setting that Jandy valve so that OFF is pointed toward the water distribution valve and observe if the spa still drains down.

If the low profile water distribution valve is for the spa, check to see how many zones it has. Take a picture from the side (near ground level) of all three water valves and post them here. Many times there will be a check valve in the actual zone pipe right below the water valve.

As the valves are set in your pics, you are pulling all water from the pool and returning all water to the spa. Post pics of any check valves and where they are in the plumbing.

Can you also post a pic of the overall equipment pad and of the pool?

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

Thanks for your replies. It’s a bit tough to get all of the pool equipment in one shot. I took a video that may be helpful. If you listen to the audio you can hear water at the end. I will attach a photo of the pool and I can get additional pics tomorrow.

I replaced the three visible jandy valves that are in line with the pumps that create the overflow feature twice. I sanded the excess glue and I am fairly certain these are not the problem. These pumps are on the far left in the video. Could there be another one in the system that I am missing? From my limited knowledge, pools that do not have the additional pumps still have a jandy valve but I only see the extra ones.

I am not aware of any check valves in the system. This might be my problem. Maybe you can identify one in the video? I’ll get a shot from ground level also.

I am unclear on what you mean by setting the jandy valve so that off is pointing towards the water distribution valve. Are you referring to the valve labeled return pump that is pointing to the clear lid cleaner? I haven’t tried opening the cleaners (water distribution valves?) up. It sounds like a check valve within there could be my problem.

I am aware that when these pics were taken water was only returning to the spa. I was trying everything possible to identify the problem.

Again, thanks for any input.

 

[crusemm]

the black valves in line on the 3 far left pumps are check valves. Where do they go? if one of those is a spa return, and it has failed, it will allow the spa to drain back to the main pool.
Also, with a system as complicated as yours, it would really help to put together some sort of system diagram, showing how all of the different pieces inter relate. just my 2 cents.

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

Crusemm, all three of those pumps go to the spa. The check/jandy valves have al been inspected and replaced so I’m ruling that out as a the problem.

The diagram is a great idea. I’ll put one together today.

 

[proavia]

Right now, I am only concerned about the main pump (hooked to the filter), associated valves and the 3 water distribution valves. Don't worry about all the other pumps and the check valves attached to them. We can discuss them later if needed.

The Jandy valve closest to the water valve with the see thru lid is presently set to send water to that water valve. The side opposite the handle points to where OFF is. Reverse the position of that valve so OFF points to the water valve with the see thru lid. Now refill the spa and see if the spa drains down. Report back here withthe result.

There are no check valves inside of the water valves. Post a pic of the water valve with the see thru lid from ground level. I need to see the piping exiting the bottom of that valve. You may have to move the rocks from around those pipes to see if any check valves are present. If any are there, they may look different from the ones by the other pumps. Let us know how many pipes exit from the bottom of that water valve.

As the system is set in your initial pics, do the pop-ups in the spa function when the pump is on?

Thanks for posting a pic of your pool. Very nice!!

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

Proavia, thanks for your reply. I ran out of daylight but I will attach what I was able to dig up. It looks like there are 6 zones in the two non-clear lid distribution valves. From what I was able to dig up, at least 2 of the pipes end without continuing into the ground on the clear lid one. Is this what you are referring to? Let me know if I should continue digging tomorrow.

I closed the jandy valve after refilling the spa and the spa still drains (pic also attached) Does this rule out the water distribution valves?

I don’t think the pop up heads are meant to work with the spa on. When I place the valves in the position that the first set of pics are in, the spa pop ups do not work with the filter pump turned on. All of the water rushes out of the jets. When they are placed back in the normal configuration, the pop ups cycle through the pool and spa normally.

I did notice what looks like the pop ups in the pool pushing out a small amount of water when the distribution valve is set to off. Should this be happening? Now that I’m thinking about it, this is probably water pushing back into the pool from the spa.

 

[proavia]

In looking at your IFCS parts, I believe you have an infloor manufactured by A&A Manufacturing. What I am guessing is that the 2 solid dome water valves control the infloor to the pool and the one with the low profile water valve controls the spa infloor.

The low profile water valve may have 2-3 pipes running to the spa. From your pics, it looks like there are 8 pop ups in the spa - is that correct? Possibly one pipe for each 4 pop ups. Dig around this valve only to see exactly how many pipes extend into the ground.

In the configuration of your last pic, water is being sent to BOTH of the solid dome water valves. This is splitting the water flow to 2 infloor zones at the same time - certainly not ideal for efficient cleaning as the divided flow is not sufficient to either zone.

A bit more experimenting is necessary - keep notes...

• With the Jandy valve leading to the low low profile valve set to OFF, set the Jandy valve going to the solid dome valves so either the left or right pipe is set to OFF.
• With pump on, observe which pop ups extend. Let the system run thru a complete cycle for that water valve.
• Now turn that same Jandy valve 180* to fully activate the other solid dome water valve. Again, observe which pop ups extend and let the system run thru a complete cycle.
• Finally, turn the Jandy valve closest to the low profile water valve 180* - which will activate the pop ups connected to the low profile water valve - and let it run thru a complete cycle.
• Post here what you find out so we can determine which water valves control which zones (pool/spa).

Also, list what each of the other pumps do (water feature, spa jets, etc.) so we can better understand your pool system.

Too bad you don't live further north - it probably would have taken me less time to drop by to check out the system than it has for me to type all this. LOL

Hang in there, we will get this sorted.

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

Thanks again. I saw Chandler and was thinking the same. I’m definitely in over my head over here. Stay tuned for results from further testing tomorrow.

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

Apologies for the delayed response. I had to leave town for a few days.

In looking at your IFCS parts, I believe you have an infloor manufactured by A&A Manufacturing. What I am guessing is that the 2 solid dome water valves control the infloor to the pool and the one with the low profile water valve controls the spa infloor.

That’s correct. It says A&A on the lid.

The low profile water valve may have 2-3 pipes running to the spa. From your pics, it looks like there are 8 pop ups in the spa - is that correct? Possibly one pipe for each 4 pop ups. Dig around this valve only to see exactly how many pipes extend into the ground.

Correct 8 pop ups in the spa. 2 pipes extend through the ground. The rest are capped off.

In the configuration of your last pic, water is being sent to BOTH of the solid dome water valves. This is splitting the water flow to 2 infloor zones at the same time - certainly not ideal for efficient cleaning as the divided flow is not sufficient to either zone.

I’m still not sure on the logic here. Hopefully the below information will help in your assessment.

A bit more experimenting is necessary - keep notes...

• With the Jandy valve leading to the low low profile valve set to OFF, set the Jandy valve going to the solid dome valves so either the left or right pipe is set to OFF.

When you say set to off do you mean the word off is on the side closest to the clear lid? If so, this causes a pressure spike in the filter. I didn’t want to leave it on in this configuration because it sounds like the pump is working really hard. I

With pump on, observe which pop ups extend. Let the system run thru a complete cycle for that water valve.

• Now turn that same Jandy valve 180* to fully activate the other solid dome water valve. Again, observe which pop ups extend and let the system run thru a complete cycle.

Again, didn’t want to break anything so I did not shut off the low profile valve. I did turn the jandy valves leading to the solid domes to see what each side did. As far as I can tell, it did nothing. Both positions resulted in all the pop ups being cycled through, including the spa.

• Finally, turn the Jandy valve closest to the low profile water valve 180* - which will activate the pop ups connected to the low profile water valve - and let it run thru a complete cycle.

So that the handle is pointed towards the clear lid? I see no difference from when it is pointed to the clear lid or to the return pump. Maybe these jandy valves need replacing?

• Post here what you find out so we can determine which water valves control which zones (pool/spa).

Also, list what each of the other pumps do (water feature, spa jets, etc.) so we can better understand your pool system.

The two pumps on the right control the waterfall. The three on the left create the overflow from the spa into the pool. These all pull water from the pool. The filter pump pulls through the heater and creates the jets in the spa.

Too bad you don't live further north - it probably would have taken me less time to drop by to check out the system than it has for me to type all this. LOL

Hang in there, we will get this sorted.

I’m completely lost here. It’s becoming more apparent that I need to bit the bullet and hire someone to fix it before the pebble tec starts to crack.

 

[proavia]

When I say to turn something off with respect to a Jandy valve, I mean that the word off is pointed in that direction. So in the case of the low profile water valve, OFF is pointed to the valve. In this position, water flows toward the Jandy valve at the bottom of the last pic you posted. Then, based on the setting of that valve, flows left or right to one of the other water valves.

Please explain what you mean by the pressure spikes. What is the starting pressure and what is the pressure after turning the Jandy valve? The cycling of the infloor thru different zones will certainly increase the pressure. At 3450 rpm on the main pump, mine will go from 19-ish to 25 psi. At lower rpms, the pressure indication is less.

Also, on the Jandy valve closest to the low profile water valve, with OFF pointing toward the the low profile water valve, do any pop ups in the spa ever extend?

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

The pressure goes from about 25 to 35 psi when I shut the low profile water valve off. I can tell that water is still being sucked in through the skimmer but I can’t tell where it comes out. The pop ups do not function when this valve is set to off.

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

Took another video. it might make more sense if you see what I’m talking about.

 

[proavia]

When is the last time your filter was cleaned?
How old are the cartridges?
After cleaning, what is the filter pressure when valves are set in the original position in your video?

In the video, turning the Jandy valve handle closest to the low profile water valve so off faces away from the low profile water valve directs the water only thru the low profile water valve. Turning the Jandy valve so off points toward the low profile water valve direct water toward the other domed water valves - or at least it's supposed to. The present position of the Jandy valve in the lower part of the video (furthest away from the low profile water valve) is set to send water to both of the domed water valves. As such, I would think the pressure would drop since you are basically sending the water to 2 zones at the same time - but the pressure went up instead.

When the low profile water valve it off, do you see any pop ups extending (pool or spa)? They may not fully extend, but should pop up some at least. When the low profile water valve is on (water flowing thru it) do only the spa pop ups extend?

It may be beneficial to open the domed water valves to check for free operation of the internal parts. Once you determine that all 3 water valves are functioning properly and the filter is clean, we can discuss how to correctly operate the system.

***** Back to your original question on the spa draining down *****
If the low profile water valve is the only water valve that controls the spa pop ups, dig down a bit deeper below the valve and see if there is any fittings or bulge in the piping. This could indicate an inline check valve (something similar to
this: 1 1/2" PVC Utility Swing Check Valve, Socket, EPDM, S1520-15). These type check valves can easily fail and allow water to backflow. Since you have 2 zones for the spa cleaning there should be 2 check valves if installed below the low profile water valve.

If the Jandy valve nearest the low profile valve is set to turn off flow to the low profile water valve, does the spa still drain down with the filter pump off?

Do any of the additional pumps send water back to the spa?

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

So I solved my original problem. It turns out the pressure relief valves for the spa was my issue. I shamefully hired someone to diagnose it and they weren’t even sure that what they did would solve it but it now functions normally.

For future reference I will provide some additional info. The company that installed my pool (patio pools) used to install these pressure relief valves shown in the attached photo. From my understanding, they were the only company to do so and they no longer use the same method. These valves are quite expensive at 100 bucks a piece and I am still not certain what their purpose is. I had people claim they were not needed and attempt to cap them off (shown in original set of photos) but this didn’t fix the problem.

I wish I could have done it myself but I am breathing easy knowing that it is fixed. Thank you for all of your responses. I’m sure we will get to know each other very well in the future with all the potential problems I may face with this system.

 

[proavia]

Thanks for letting us know about those valves. I've never seen that before. I'm sure there are others in Tucson that have the same setup - and you posting this will help them in the future.

Would you happen to have a make and model number for those?

As for how to run your system, feel free to ask questions. Your setup is quite unique and interesting. What type and model number of automation do you have. I find it odd that they didn't automate the cleaning system Jandy valves.

 

[AerospaceCowboy]

Thanks for letting us know about those valves. I've never seen that before. I'm sure there are others in Tucson that have the same setup - and you posting this will help them in the future.

Would you happen to have a make and model number for those?

As for how to run your system, feel free to ask questions. Your setup is quite unique and interesting. What type and model number of automation do you have. I find it odd that they didn't automate the cleaning system Jandy valves.

Very late reply but in case others need it, these are the relief valves on my pool. Pool company was about 5x the price. Calcium can build up and hold them open.