Solar heaters - low flow

Could you confirm that the pipe length to/from the roof is around 28' or is that the height of the roof? The pipe length looks to be much longer than that.

Also, could you confirm the number of 90s & 45s in each path?
 
Yes it makes sense but it does come at a cost. Those type of cleaners reduce pump performance.


So is the solar return path to the pool separate from the main return path that goes through the SWG?

I see, to be honest I've also tried to close my vac and use my skimmer and sump fully open but didn't see much of a difference.

Yes, the return path to the pool is seperate - it is via 3 inlets at the bottom of the pool.
 
I see, to be honest I've also tried to close my vac and use my skimmer and sump fully open but didn't see much of a difference.

Yes, the return path to the pool is seperate - it is via 3 inlets at the bottom of the pool.
Do you know the size of the inlet?
 
Could you confirm that the pipe length to/from the roof is around 28' or is that the height of the roof? The pipe length looks to be much longer than that.

Also, could you confirm the number of 90s & 45s in each path?
The measurements (25 across, 28 up) are correct, or at least to the nearest foot - for each run of course, so its the same distance on the return.

There are 6 x 45's & 8 x 90's in each run (going to the pool, plus the same coming back). Majority of these are all next to each other by the beam.
 
Do you know the size of the inlet?

hmm no, but I do have 3 of them (dont remember how the plumbing is in the structure to be honest). The majority of water comes out from just the 1 of them that is closest to the pump. I'm attaching a photo of one of them closest to the sump (it is the smaller one of these 2, the one on the right if that helps?)
 

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What is the pipe length from where the solar returns in the equipment room to the pool outlets?

Because of the separate return, I think that what may be happening is that the return pipe may not be fully priming so the pressure rise includes the lift to the roof which is ~12 PSI. This is probably too much for the current pump but I want to confirm with the additional info above.
 
What is the pipe length from where the solar returns in the equipment room to the pool outlets?

Because of the separate return, I think that what may be happening is that the return pipe may not be fully priming so the pressure rise includes the lift to the roof which is ~12 PSI. This is probably too much for the current pump but I want to confirm with the additional info above.
This is minimal really, as the pump room is adjacent to the pool in my basement (pool is in ground on the above level).

From the pump room to the first pool inlet is around 7 feet across, at most. I have 3 inlets spread across (all in the bottom) but don't remember exactly how the plumbing is for these.
 
I am now pretty confident the issue is the lift to the roof. It is not being offset by a filled return pipe. So the pump you have is really insufficient to lift 28' at a decent flow rate.

But most of the pumps in that pump line are fairly low head. Even the 3HP has only 73' of lift at dead head. Most pumps here in the US are well above 80'.

What type/size of filter do you have?
 
Managed to dig out a photo of the pumbing prior to concreting the pool. The inlet for the solar heater is the one on the far right in this photo. As you can see it is eventually 3 in total, but does include another 2 x 45's. The plumbing of the pool is also in 50mm, it is just the pipes to the roof and back in 40mm.
 

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Besides type/size of filter, is there a vacuum release valve on the roof somewhere or do the solar panels stay filled with water the all the time?
 

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I am now pretty confident the issue is the lift to the roof. It is not being offset by a filled return pipe. So the pump you have is really insufficient to lift 28' at a decent flow rate.

But most of the pumps in that pump line are fairly low head. Even the 3HP has only 73' of lift at dead head. Most pumps here in the US are well above 80'.

What type/size of filter do you have?
I see, would the down pipe from the roof not be enough in this case?

Filter is Coral - design flow rate 10m3/h, 85kg sand, filtration area 0.20m2.
 
I see, would the down pipe from the roof not be enough in this case?
The pump flow rate has to be high enough to purge any air that is in the solar return pipe and I think that is the problem.

Filter is Coral - design flow rate 10m3/h, 85kg sand, filtration area 0.20m2.
That is a very small filter and probably has a lot of head loss.

If you can fill that return pipe, the pressure would drop and flow rates would increase. But to do that, you need enough flow rate so one thing you could try is to redirect all the flow to the solar and see if the air can get purged out of the solar return.

If that doesn't work, then you may need to upgrade the pump or go with a solar booster.
 
One more thing that I thought of to prime the return pipe. Is that return solar pipe valve below water level? If so, you could shut it off and fill the pipe from the roof. You just need to make sure there is no residual air in the solar panels either. If that pipe remains primed, then filter pressure should go down and flow rates increase.
 
Right, so what I've done yesterday is that I disconnected solar panels at a time to increase the pressure and remove any potential airlocks. I also ran the pump at full pressure for a bit to try and remove any additional air. I would say based on this that I shouldn't have any additional air to be honest.

Separately though, I've this morning also noticed that if I close my vac+sump+skimmer and open my topup which is coming from a well underlying the pool (perhaps 1.5m distance, flexible hose) the pressure immediately drops by a significant amount. With my solar open and inlets at 30%, I'm at 12psi only and with everything going to solar I'm at 14psi. As soon as I open any of the other 3 (vac/sump/skimmer) this increases by give or take 6 psi. Does this make sense? I was thinking that maybe the fittings are making such a difference, but I even tried removing the hose from my vac port entirely to just have it open and this made no difference at all ?! Since the pressure reduces so much with using just the topup valve, I ran this for a few minutes to make sure any air is pushed out... but as soon as I switch everything back it still doesn't make a difference to the pressure. I'm very confused as to why the vac/sump/skimmer make such a difference here really, and why would the topup not act the same? The only difference is that the well is further underground, but I don't see why that would effect it so much.

Not sure if this helps at all, but if not -

a) if I had to change the pump, is there something specific you would recommend by any chance?
b) if I had to instead consider a solar booster, I assume you are referring to a booster pump right? am I right in saying this should be placed just after the valve going to the solar panels? and again here, is there anything in particular you can recommend please?

Thanks again
 
Right, so what I've done yesterday is that I disconnected solar panels at a time to increase the pressure and remove any potential airlocks. I also ran the pump at full pressure for a bit to try and remove any additional air. I would say based on this that I shouldn't have any additional air to be honest.
Again, technically, this is not an airlock issue. Airlock prevents the flow of water but this is not what is happening. The issue is that there is not enough flow rate going to the panels because of the pump head curve and the head loss between the pump and panels.

Separately though, I've this morning also noticed that if I close my vac+sump+skimmer and open my topup which is coming from a well underlying the pool (perhaps 1.5m distance, flexible hose) the pressure immediately drops by a significant amount.
That means you are probably restricting the suction side and reducing flow rate even more. Ideally, you want all of those open. The more parallel paths for water, the lower the head loss and the the higher the flow rate from the pump.

With my solar open and inlets at 30%, I'm at 12psi only and with everything going to solar I'm at 14psi. As soon as I open any of the other 3 (vac/sump/skimmer) this increases by give or take 6 psi. Does this make sense?
Yes, perfect sense as I outlined above. When flow rate to solar increases, which is what you want, filter pressure will increase.

When all the suction side ports are 100% open and flow is only to solar, does air come out of the solar returns in the pool? What is the filter pressure in this scenario?

I was thinking that maybe the fittings are making such a difference, but I even tried removing the hose from my vac port entirely to just have it open and this made no difference at all ?! Since the pressure reduces so much with using just the topup valve, I ran this for a few minutes to make sure any air is pushed out... but as soon as I switch everything back it still doesn't make a difference to the pressure. I'm very confused as to why the vac/sump/skimmer make such a difference here really, and why would the topup not act the same? The only difference is that the well is further underground, but I don't see why that would effect it so much.
This goes back to explanations given above. The more the parallel paths, the lower the head loss and the higher the flow rate. This results in higher filter pressure. Also, fittings add head loss but each one is not that bad. Each 90 adds the equivalent of 4' of straight pipe and each 45 about half that.

But I still think there is something in your plumbing causing higher than normal head loss. If I calculate an operating point for your pump and plumbing setup, I get less filter pressure than you do even with a 28' lift. Do you have a link to the filter you are using or perhaps the manual? I want to see the head loss characteristics of the filter.

Not sure if this helps at all, but if not -

a) if I had to change the pump, is there something specific you would recommend by any chance?
b) if I had to instead consider a solar booster, I assume you are referring to a booster pump right? am I right in saying this should be placed just after the valve going to the solar panels? and again here, is there anything in particular you can recommend please?

Thanks again
Unfortunately, not knowing what is available in your country makes it difficult to make recommendations. But yes, a booster would go right before the water is sent to the solar panels.

But before recommending the pump characteristics, I would like get feedback on the test I outlined above (All suction 100% open, only solar return 100% open). Report filter pressure. The panels are back in the loop, correct?
 
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With all suction open 100%, and only solar open on the other end the pressure is at 21psi.
Did you see any air coming out of the solar returns?

When I use the plumbing you have described and the pump model, I get a pressure of around 16.5 PSI for that configuration. When was the filter last backwashed?

I still think we are missing something here.

My filter is model 01017001 at the below link -

Unfortunately, that does not contain any head loss information.
 
Also, can you show a picture below the one showing all the valves and include the pump and filter as well.
 

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