You can add borates any time after the first 30 day since plaster was applied, preferably at a time when nothing else complex is going on (ie not in the middle of shocking).
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i add the borate extreme to any pool i service that has algae issues. now i can provide the customer with a cheaper alternative! thanks!
As shown in this MSDS, the Alden Leeds Borate Extreme is sodium tetraborate pentahydrate. However, if you are a pool service buying in bulk quantity at the wholesale level, I find it surprising that you can't get it for the same or less than 20 Mule Team Borax at a grocery store (at retail for pool owners, I can understand the difference, but aren't you buying at wholesale?). Note that 20 Mule Team Borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate so you need about 31% more by weight for the same rise in borates.
even at the wholesale level, borates are expensive. unless i buy several pallets direct from the manufacturer, buying from a wholesale distributor its still pricey.
You might want to consider using boric acid. It's quicker and easier.
http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=boric55
http://www.chemistrystore.com/search.cg ... boric+acid
Do a Google search on the term "boric acid" "your city" to see if their are any local wholesalers in your area that carry boric acid.
http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=boric55
http://www.chemistrystore.com/search.cg ... boric+acid
Do a Google search on the term "boric acid" "your city" to see if their are any local wholesalers in your area that carry boric acid.
- Aug 14, 2011
- 61
Aloha friends!
I'm a pool service professional, and have had excellent results here in "jungle land" (Puna, HI) using borates to help my pools resist algae (which is always lurking in this territory!). Hats off to Richard and all you others who have contributed their experience & perspective to the use of this chemical in pools.
I have been continuing my search for a consistently available and cheaper way to get borates into pools (I've been using the typical "Borax at WallyWorld" with muriatic acid method--but they rarely have more than 3 boxes on the shelf). I have found 50 pound bags of borate fertilizer additive (Granubor 15%--3 mm prills) made by 20 Mule Team, but it costs more from my local chem supply than using the retail Borax at WallyWorld. Recently, I came across the liquid wood treatment sold at my hardware store for construction contractors (DIY treatment of fresh cut "board ends")--it was Disodium Octoborate Tetrahydrate...I don't remember the concentration, but it looked like it was pretty pure...only a small amount of "Inert Ingredients." I believe it might be made from "Polybor" (Na2B8O13.4H2O) which is the white powder product made by 20 Mule Team as a Fire Retardant.
Any ideas or perspective you can contribute as to its applicability and strength (usage rate per 1000 gallons) to swimming pools, Richard?
Aloha!
Warren
I'm a pool service professional, and have had excellent results here in "jungle land" (Puna, HI) using borates to help my pools resist algae (which is always lurking in this territory!). Hats off to Richard and all you others who have contributed their experience & perspective to the use of this chemical in pools.
I have been continuing my search for a consistently available and cheaper way to get borates into pools (I've been using the typical "Borax at WallyWorld" with muriatic acid method--but they rarely have more than 3 boxes on the shelf). I have found 50 pound bags of borate fertilizer additive (Granubor 15%--3 mm prills) made by 20 Mule Team, but it costs more from my local chem supply than using the retail Borax at WallyWorld. Recently, I came across the liquid wood treatment sold at my hardware store for construction contractors (DIY treatment of fresh cut "board ends")--it was Disodium Octoborate Tetrahydrate...I don't remember the concentration, but it looked like it was pretty pure...only a small amount of "Inert Ingredients." I believe it might be made from "Polybor" (Na2B8O13.4H2O) which is the white powder product made by 20 Mule Team as a Fire Retardant.
Any ideas or perspective you can contribute as to its applicability and strength (usage rate per 1000 gallons) to swimming pools, Richard?
Aloha!
Warren
I posted this in a thread I started about Borates, but wanted to add it here... hope you don't mind the double post.
I just wanted to say THANK YOU!!!! Prior to adding the Borates, I would have told you that my water couldn't get any better, it was already clear. But due to having to add acid almost daily I decided to add borates to see if I could slow down my MA consumption rate. According to the Pool Calculator I needed to add 28 lbs of Boric Acid (I went that route due to its simplicity). I added 15 lbs yesterday morning and by the afternoon my water SPARKLED!!! I tested this morning and was at 30 PPM so I added another 12 Pounds (or so, had to guesstimate how much from the 15lb bucket). My pool has never looked better!
I would never have known to do that if it wasn't for this forum, so THANK you to everyone that shares their knowledge with us newbies.
My "Lifetime Member" payment was just sent. Thanks again, hopefully as I learn more I'll be able to give back knowledge rather than just a one time payment.
You guys ROCK!
I just wanted to say THANK YOU!!!! Prior to adding the Borates, I would have told you that my water couldn't get any better, it was already clear. But due to having to add acid almost daily I decided to add borates to see if I could slow down my MA consumption rate. According to the Pool Calculator I needed to add 28 lbs of Boric Acid (I went that route due to its simplicity). I added 15 lbs yesterday morning and by the afternoon my water SPARKLED!!! I tested this morning and was at 30 PPM so I added another 12 Pounds (or so, had to guesstimate how much from the 15lb bucket). My pool has never looked better!
I would never have known to do that if it wasn't for this forum, so THANK you to everyone that shares their knowledge with us newbies.
My "Lifetime Member" payment was just sent. Thanks again, hopefully as I learn more I'll be able to give back knowledge rather than just a one time payment.
You guys ROCK!
Wanting to add Borates to our 2 yr old pool since we have had on/off issues with algae in the past.
18000 gal plaster/quartzscape finish
ozonator
FC 4.5
pH 7.5
TA 110
CYA 70
Think I already know the answer here, but do I need to get that CYA down by replacing 40% of my water before I add borates??
Of course for time and energy sake I don't want to (and don't forsee anymore CYA being added since we are at the end of swim season) but I also don't want to add the borates and THEN have to replace the water, thus having to replace 1/2 the borates.
Suggestions? Thank you!
18000 gal plaster/quartzscape finish
ozonator
FC 4.5
pH 7.5
TA 110
CYA 70
Think I already know the answer here, but do I need to get that CYA down by replacing 40% of my water before I add borates??
Of course for time and energy sake I don't want to (and don't forsee anymore CYA being added since we are at the end of swim season) but I also don't want to add the borates and THEN have to replace the water, thus having to replace 1/2 the borates.
Suggestions? Thank you!
GPCMommy, welcome to TFP!
At this time of year (late September) it is probably best to wait until next spring before adding borates. Otherwise you will just be throwing away a noticeable fraction of the borates you add now when you lower the water level to winterize. If it wasn't already fall, I would do any lowering of CYA that needs to be done before adding borates. In your particular case, assuming no SWG, lowering CYA is recommended, but not essential.
At this time of year (late September) it is probably best to wait until next spring before adding borates. Otherwise you will just be throwing away a noticeable fraction of the borates you add now when you lower the water level to winterize. If it wasn't already fall, I would do any lowering of CYA that needs to be done before adding borates. In your particular case, assuming no SWG, lowering CYA is recommended, but not essential.
Thanks.
We don't winterize here (Dallas) but what I meant by not adding any more CYA is that our puck use becomes nill in the winter.
Thinking that if I replace water now, adjust and add borates, and keep chlorine on level with bleach through the winter I will be good to go for our spring swim season as well as part of the summer (which is normal for us dealing with CYA anyway).
Just trying to see if I can get a free pass with a CYA of 70 but really I know better! :lol:
We don't winterize here (Dallas) but what I meant by not adding any more CYA is that our puck use becomes nill in the winter.
Thinking that if I replace water now, adjust and add borates, and keep chlorine on level with bleach through the winter I will be good to go for our spring swim season as well as part of the summer (which is normal for us dealing with CYA anyway).
Just trying to see if I can get a free pass with a CYA of 70 but really I know better! :lol:
The pool stores around me advocate to add borates in either Spring or Fall because of water temps not being too hot or too cold. I guess I figure if I do the 'start from scratch' add now I only have to adjust come Spring or when/if I replace water next summer.
First off, I'd like to say a HUGE thanks to all the knowledgeable contributors of TFP, I have accessed several forums over the last year for guidance & am always amazed at the ease of finding answers.
We run a small pool company in the Houston (south of) area and...
My initial search today was for information regarding potential factors causing elevated phosphate levels in our pools, across the board. We started noticing an increase sometime in 2009. In 2010, we were having to use quite a bit of phosphate remover (PR10000) whenever there was an algae problem (or resistant algae problem). The stuff is expensive, to say the least (current pricing $93/gal from the wholesale dist!). In 2011 (June) we decided to add a '1-time' charge to each customer's invoice to help defray the cost, since all needed it at least once & some twice or more. With almost no rain in 2011 (some say year-long drout) phosphate readings were higher still. Levels have tested, in some cases, off the charts. Even sporatic tap water testing yielded readings of 500ppb. We are about to advise our clients that "phosphate removers" will no longer be included in our "all chemicals included" pricing as we can no longer afford to absorb this cost.
Before doing that I figured TFP would have something posted that might educate me on this subject. Everything I came across initially said "don't worry about phosphates", "phosphate levels don't affect a thing", & yada yada yada. I couldn't believe it. How so?? So now I'm wondering, have we overlooked something? I saw one little post that mentioned adding borate to the chemistry to aid in combating algae. Eager to find out more, I left that string & found this string of 15 pages of posts (& testimonials) on the amazing benefits of adding borate to your water's chemistry. All rave about the results; the clarity, the reduction in chlorine usage, the water's renewed softness, & the virtual elimination of problematic algae!
(My apologies for the lengthy preface)
OK...so I want to know if these issues are in any way related, meaning would the addition of borate to my (customers') pools eliminate (or drastically reduce) the constant need for phosphate removers?... or am I off base here? There doesn't seem to be a down side to adding borate. If adding it would help, how would I handle "borate-ing" close to 200 pools? Could the partial dosing be done over 2-3 weekly visits? I don't think all the Wal-Mart's in Houston could satisfy my initial borate demand. LOL
Seriously...I am desperate for guidance and/or answers and I know that TFP is the place to get just that.
Much thanks, in advance - Tammi
We run a small pool company in the Houston (south of) area and...
My initial search today was for information regarding potential factors causing elevated phosphate levels in our pools, across the board. We started noticing an increase sometime in 2009. In 2010, we were having to use quite a bit of phosphate remover (PR10000) whenever there was an algae problem (or resistant algae problem). The stuff is expensive, to say the least (current pricing $93/gal from the wholesale dist!). In 2011 (June) we decided to add a '1-time' charge to each customer's invoice to help defray the cost, since all needed it at least once & some twice or more. With almost no rain in 2011 (some say year-long drout) phosphate readings were higher still. Levels have tested, in some cases, off the charts. Even sporatic tap water testing yielded readings of 500ppb. We are about to advise our clients that "phosphate removers" will no longer be included in our "all chemicals included" pricing as we can no longer afford to absorb this cost.
Before doing that I figured TFP would have something posted that might educate me on this subject. Everything I came across initially said "don't worry about phosphates", "phosphate levels don't affect a thing", & yada yada yada. I couldn't believe it. How so?? So now I'm wondering, have we overlooked something? I saw one little post that mentioned adding borate to the chemistry to aid in combating algae. Eager to find out more, I left that string & found this string of 15 pages of posts (& testimonials) on the amazing benefits of adding borate to your water's chemistry. All rave about the results; the clarity, the reduction in chlorine usage, the water's renewed softness, & the virtual elimination of problematic algae!
(My apologies for the lengthy preface)
OK...so I want to know if these issues are in any way related, meaning would the addition of borate to my (customers') pools eliminate (or drastically reduce) the constant need for phosphate removers?... or am I off base here? There doesn't seem to be a down side to adding borate. If adding it would help, how would I handle "borate-ing" close to 200 pools? Could the partial dosing be done over 2-3 weekly visits? I don't think all the Wal-Mart's in Houston could satisfy my initial borate demand. LOL
Seriously...I am desperate for guidance and/or answers and I know that TFP is the place to get just that.
Much thanks, in advance - Tammi
As you've read phosphates are irrelevant if the pool is properly maintained. Since you're not able to chlorinate often enough you could try polyquat 60 algaecide as an adjunct. Borates may help but I suspect the cost will be a hindrance.
I wrote a rather long reply but apparently forgot to post it. Nevertheless, bama said it already, the thing to take away from your research is that phosphates are not relevant to a properly chlorinated pool.
Borates are often assigned some magical properties that are a bit of a stretch but, nevertheless, borates are probably a good thing.......as long as you keep in your mind that it's lack of chlorine that is causing your algae....not phosphates
Borates are often assigned some magical properties that are a bit of a stretch but, nevertheless, borates are probably a good thing.......as long as you keep in your mind that it's lack of chlorine that is causing your algae....not phosphates
- Aug 14, 2011
- 61
Aloha Tammi!
OK, here's my perspective on it (a pool service guy in the "tropical jungle" eastern tip of the Big Island--average 8" of rain per month)...remember there are always differences from area to area, and "funny" things tend to crop up with swimming pools...but here goes:
Borates are fantastic, but not an "ends all problems" answer for pools. I truly believe they will NOT solve any high phosphate issues (and believe me, I've seen them here too, even in well water drawn from the aquifer at the ocean's edge--probably from fertilizers making their way into the water table), so those phosphates will still have to be treated with something that will absorb them out of the water. Once you get them down to workable levels, the fact that you have borates in the water should work as a decent preventative against new algae (I actually consider it to be a "chlorine helper"--just something that makes it easier for the chlorine to do its work). But the most important things are still the pH and chlorine levels (adjusted for CYA level). I almost never have algae problems with my SWCG pools...but my pools that have no residents present and are on Trichlor tablets have to be watched carefully for the dreaded "climbing CYA" problem. Many customers today want me to take care of their pools just twice a month, and living on the edge of the ocean 19 degrees North of the equator, surrounded with TONS of trees, algae, lichen, moss, and mold, it is a difficult task to keep a pool perfect or troublefree! But using the knowledge made available by the folks pitching in on this forum has certainly made my work easier...so hats off to all you helpers!
Here are my experiences getting multiple pools treated with Borates: Even WallyWorld will be resistant to selling huge amounts of Borax to you...I had to find other sources. Related compounds are available at my local "farm supply" companies...I DO NOT recommend using Granubor (too dirty and takes too long to dissolve), but Solubor seems to be the one that is meant to dissolve quickly, and is even stronger than the Borax, so you will have to change the recipe you use to treat pools. It comes in 50 pound bags, something you will appreciate with the amount of pools you want to treat. Richard (the Chem Geek) has a message he can refer you to that shows the relative strengths and their recipe ratios.
Now maybe someone can help me...I have been unable to find good test strips for borates. I've ordered the AquaCheck test strips from a water filtration online store in California, but the strips are worthless to me. They don't ever seem to match the colors on the label, and when I test against rainwater (which should have no borates in it), it comes out even more confusing. I understand most of the folks on this forum use the LaMotte brand...and I'd sure love to know where I can find them. My big pool supply store doesn't carry them. The link for the Canadian provider of the borate titration kit takes me to a website that looks like it was designed in 1994... can't get it to work for me! Any ideas, folks?
OK, here's my perspective on it (a pool service guy in the "tropical jungle" eastern tip of the Big Island--average 8" of rain per month)...remember there are always differences from area to area, and "funny" things tend to crop up with swimming pools...but here goes:
Borates are fantastic, but not an "ends all problems" answer for pools. I truly believe they will NOT solve any high phosphate issues (and believe me, I've seen them here too, even in well water drawn from the aquifer at the ocean's edge--probably from fertilizers making their way into the water table), so those phosphates will still have to be treated with something that will absorb them out of the water. Once you get them down to workable levels, the fact that you have borates in the water should work as a decent preventative against new algae (I actually consider it to be a "chlorine helper"--just something that makes it easier for the chlorine to do its work). But the most important things are still the pH and chlorine levels (adjusted for CYA level). I almost never have algae problems with my SWCG pools...but my pools that have no residents present and are on Trichlor tablets have to be watched carefully for the dreaded "climbing CYA" problem. Many customers today want me to take care of their pools just twice a month, and living on the edge of the ocean 19 degrees North of the equator, surrounded with TONS of trees, algae, lichen, moss, and mold, it is a difficult task to keep a pool perfect or troublefree! But using the knowledge made available by the folks pitching in on this forum has certainly made my work easier...so hats off to all you helpers!
Here are my experiences getting multiple pools treated with Borates: Even WallyWorld will be resistant to selling huge amounts of Borax to you...I had to find other sources. Related compounds are available at my local "farm supply" companies...I DO NOT recommend using Granubor (too dirty and takes too long to dissolve), but Solubor seems to be the one that is meant to dissolve quickly, and is even stronger than the Borax, so you will have to change the recipe you use to treat pools. It comes in 50 pound bags, something you will appreciate with the amount of pools you want to treat. Richard (the Chem Geek) has a message he can refer you to that shows the relative strengths and their recipe ratios.
Now maybe someone can help me...I have been unable to find good test strips for borates. I've ordered the AquaCheck test strips from a water filtration online store in California, but the strips are worthless to me. They don't ever seem to match the colors on the label, and when I test against rainwater (which should have no borates in it), it comes out even more confusing. I understand most of the folks on this forum use the LaMotte brand...and I'd sure love to know where I can find them. My big pool supply store doesn't carry them. The link for the Canadian provider of the borate titration kit takes me to a website that looks like it was designed in 1994... can't get it to work for me! Any ideas, folks?
- Aug 14, 2011
- 61
Oh yeah...a quick addendum to that last post...
I'm not trying to say that Phosphates are the big cause of algae...only that where I live and work, I must take care of every last thing in order to keep my pools away from the algae...
So I don't worry about normal phosphate levels of 0-500 ppb, but if it gets up to 1000 ppb, I will often suggest that we add a phosphate magnet product so that if other chemical levels get "close to the edge," (can you say LOW CHLORINE?) we don't have a feast of phosphate sitting there for the algae to eat. Things grow fast here!
Aloha to all!
I'm not trying to say that Phosphates are the big cause of algae...only that where I live and work, I must take care of every last thing in order to keep my pools away from the algae...
So I don't worry about normal phosphate levels of 0-500 ppb, but if it gets up to 1000 ppb, I will often suggest that we add a phosphate magnet product so that if other chemical levels get "close to the edge," (can you say LOW CHLORINE?) we don't have a feast of phosphate sitting there for the algae to eat. Things grow fast here!
Aloha to all!
I've had 3000+ ppb phosphates in my pool and others have had up to 5000 ppb and yet been able to manage the pool preventing algae growth by maintaining proper FC/CYA levels. There is no question that such pools are very "reactive" in that IF the chlorine level gets too low the pools can go south relatively quickly and that is a problem for pool services that do not visit pools more than once a week. As was noted above Borates are a mild algaecide, not a cure-all. Polyquat 60 is somewhat stronger, but again if you have too low an FC/CYA ratio than Polyquat alone will not stop algae growth. Copper ions will prevent algae, but can also stain pool surfaces so we don't recommend that. We don't worry about phosphates for the tens of thousands of pool owners on this and some other forums because we are able to maintain our pools with consistent chlorine levels (something that SWCG pools can do more readily since they are frequently dosing without building up CYA).
Anyway, for a pool service, the use of a phosphate remover is something to make up for the fact that you don't visit the pools regularly enough to dose with unstabilized chlorine, but as you have found lanthanum chloride is expensive. There are some pool services that dose with chlorine gas and/or chlorinating liquid once a week, but they dose to around 14 ppm FC or so and one week later have around 4 ppm FC all at around 100 ppm CYA in hot climates. That's another approach that can be taken.
Anyway, for a pool service, the use of a phosphate remover is something to make up for the fact that you don't visit the pools regularly enough to dose with unstabilized chlorine, but as you have found lanthanum chloride is expensive. There are some pool services that dose with chlorine gas and/or chlorinating liquid once a week, but they dose to around 14 ppm FC or so and one week later have around 4 ppm FC all at around 100 ppm CYA in hot climates. That's another approach that can be taken.
We are in the process of upgrading the shopping cart to a new version and working out the bugs. The upgrade has been a nightmare. We have involved the vendor and have worked out the bugs (we hope).BigIslandPoolService said:
Because it's a new version there are not many custom skins available for it yet, we are stuck using one of the default skins for now.
Thanks so much guys (BamaRam ~ duraleigh ~ Warren/BIPS ~ ChemGeek) for the insight on 'phosphates' & borates...Gonna take the info, look at our current MO with regards to where I'd like to see us, check out a few more forums around TFP (as I know there is more info to be found without y'all having to re-post) ... My questions, then, should be narrowed down to the 'meat' of what I really need / want to know.
So, thanks again...I will most definitely be back to pick your brains.
Tammi
So, thanks again...I will most definitely be back to pick your brains.
Tammi
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