So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

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Is it okay to use dry acid with this? My borate level has dwindled over the winter from refilling water so I need to get a little more in there. I have easier access to dry acid than muratic this time of year. the big box stores tend to only have it in summer for some reason.
 
chem geek said:
As shown in this MSDS, the Alden Leeds Borate Extreme is sodium tetraborate pentahydrate. However, if you are a pool service buying in bulk quantity at the wholesale level, I find it surprising that you can't get it for the same or less than 20 Mule Team Borax at a grocery store (at retail for pool owners, I can understand the difference, but aren't you buying at wholesale?). Note that 20 Mule Team Borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate so you need about 31% more by weight for the same rise in borates.
Click to expand...

cheapest i was able to find borate was 79 cents per pound. This was retail price as the quant needed to order whole sale where including shipping came out cheaper were huge... On the scale of needing a ware house JUST for the order ( several tons)
 
I took advantage of a severe Ph drop in my pool, 5.2, over the winter, to start it with Borates. I added the necessary 20 Mule to get to 50ppm and when i was done the Ph was 7.6 no acid needed. The Borate level has been 50ppm for two months, no algae, Ph between 7.4 and 7.6 (use aeration/bakingsoda/HCl when needed), add very little bleach when needed (have SWG), and a 8 ounces polyethelene dichloride every three months.
Water is clear and silky
 
Just depends upon your circulation...but they should be safe after an hour of mixing & circulation...the borates and muriatic acid should cancel each other out so you never have a radical change in pH...just let the stuff mix in as you normally would and then let the kids do the rest of the mixing! :party:

And for those of you who would like to save a little money when purchasing borates...I've finished my testing of Solubor (20 Mule Team's DiSodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate), and it has certainly passed my test! It dissolves quickly, and is extremely clean (the Granubor product dissolves much too slowly, and didn't seem very pure to me).

You can find Solubor in 50 pound bags at farming/chemical supply warehouses. Yes, it costs more per pound than the boxes of Borax, but you only use about half as much of it compared to the Borax (and half as much Muriatic Acid as well), so the cost is actually less! Really made my job easier when borating two pools last Friday! Less weight to transport, and less time to mix it in. If you can find it, I think it is really the best option.

Aloha!
 
Solubor, disodium octaborate tetra hydrate, isn't in the Pool Calculator. It requires 0.54 times as much by weight compared to Borax and {EDIT} 0.47 {/EDIT} times the amount of acid as would be used with borax.
 
I wrote this post comparing amounts. You are right about it requiring 54% as much weight as Borax to achieve the same ppm Borates level, but it requires 47.5% as much acid to neutralize compared to Borax.

The reaction of disodium octaborate tetrahydrate (DOT) in water is as follows:

Na2B8O13•4H2O + 9H2O --> 2Na+ + 8B(OH)3 + 2OH-
DOT + Water --> Sodium Ion + Boric Acid + Hydroxyl Ion

This compares with the reaction of sodium tetraborate decahydrate (20 Mule Team Borax) in water which is as follows:

Na2B4O7•10H2O --> 2Na+ + 4B(OH)3 + 2OH- + 3H2O
Sodium TetraBorate Decahydrate --> Sodium Ion + Boric Acid + Hydroxyl Ion + Water

So you can see that DOT produces half as many hydroxyl ions per boric acid (2/8) compared to Borax (2/4) which is why it only needs around half as much acid to neutralize. It's not exactly half because boric acid is slightly acidic so 2.4 fluid ounces of Muriatic Acid is held back from being added compared to what is needed to handle the hydroxyl ion amounts from the ratios above. So, (26.9+2.4)/(56.4+2.4) = 0.498 so about the 50% expected.
 
Boy, what a blessing it is to have a chem geek like YOU around, Richard! Now we not only know how much we need...but we know WHY!! :goodjob:

And Jason, thank you for the Pool Calculator...the mother of good pool calculators :goodjob: ...I'm sure we'll all appreciate having one more addition to our borate choices...although it's pretty cool that it ends up about 50% for both the Solubor and the Muriatic Acid compared to the Borax (many boxes) method.

Many thanks to both of you for your willingness to make our lives easier with your knowledge!

Aloha!
 

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I would like to add borates to my pool. It was recently replastered (4 weeks ago) how long should I wait before adding Borates to my pool?

I just finished adding CYA to the pool this weekend. So all of the chemicals i need to add are there, except it would like to add Borates.

Vince
 
JasonLion said:
You should wait 30 days after plastering before adding borates. It seems you are already very close to the 30 days, if not there already.
Click to expand...

I typed 4 weeks but i really should have said 2 weeks. My brain doesn't work sometimes.

Also i found this place

http://chemical-supermarket.com/Boric-Acid-p526.html

which sells boric acid, i don't know if this is a good deal or not, just surfing around. I would need 692 oz (according to the pool calculator)

What do you all think about this?

Vince
 
I heard someone once make a comment they could see the type of screw on their bottom drains due to their water being so clear. It was not an exageration. My goal is to have the best looking water in town! This definately helped - All thanks to the pro's on this forum.
 
Adding Borates today

After reading these forums for a month..Im taking the plunge today!

20,000 (??) IG
SWG
Diamondbrite

readings via k-2006 prior to boric acid addition
FC - 10.5
CC - .5
Ph - 7.2 (bringing up one final time to about 7.6 via arreation as we speak)
TA - 80
CH - 200
CYA - 70
Salt - 3200
Borates (via lamonte strip) - 0
Temp - 78

My builder said my pool was 20K but Im thinking less. Every time Ive added chems in the past, Ive always overshot my target. Im thinking about adding boric acid for 15k gal pool, then retest/add to inch closer to target. How much time should I wait after additions to test for borates?

I have no small pets, would it be the end of the world if I overshot it a bit?

BTW a tip from a fellow TFP member (cant remember who). My spa with blower on while overflowing to pool was a great quick way to bring my Ph back up after acid additions.

Thanks for all the great info that is shared here!
 
I have looked at most of the forum but can't find a formula for adding "Boric Acid" as I can get it ALOT cheaper and if I understand correctly there will be no or little need to add acid.

I can buy the boric acid for $75 for 55lbs......That seems like it would be alot cheaper than any other product.

One of the products that is ph nutural calls for 2lbs per 1000 gals.

If I were to use straight boric acid what is the rate per 1000 gals.

Regards

Steve Haynes
 

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