What gets me is I really think there is NO way you could have stopped this from happening even if you were stand right there unless you had a measuring stick to watch how deep they were pouring the gunite.
Kim
Kim
Signed the contract this morning, New build Orange County, CA
- Thread starter Titan7
- Start date
Thats exactly what the lead crew member does...he has a rod with a laser receiver and the depth markings on it. His job it to set the depths accordingly. Sounds to me like more of a communication issue or a math error on the PB or shotcrete crew.
New shotcrete bonds to old shotcrete surprisingly well based on its physical properties and the application method. It is very common for large pools to take several days to shoot completely, so connecting an area that has already set up with a new mix is unavoidable and generally not an issue at all.
All things considered though, I would take a shell that was shot as one unit as opposed to one that was chipped and reshot. If something as simple as a depth was overlooked, what are the chances of them getting a more complex reconstruction correct?
Update, so I hear noise in the backyard about 7:30 this morning and it the shotcrete crew here to chip out the pool, I told the PB yesterday to postpone the repair until I speak with the owner, and hear back from the engineer. So the forman comes in the backyard and starts almost yelling at me telling me that my "micro-management" caused this issue, and told me "do not speak to my crews ever again" I told him we are not proceeding until I speak with the owner of the company, I have never had a hired contrator get in my face like this in my life, he said "well there is going to be a trip cancellation charge, I told him "I doubt that". So I have a call into the owner and the sales guy. Unbelieveable, considering I did not speak to the shotcrete crew about the depths of the pool at all. I told him "this is all on you, you screwed this up not me"
As far as the repair, I am wondering if it's worth it for 2.5" of depth, the pool is 19ft wide in the shallow end, and I would imagine you would need to chip forward towards the deep end to maintain a gradual slope, if you just chip the shallow end I would believe there would be a bump?
As for how we got here, bad communication, the lead shotcrete supervisor was sick so my spanish speaking shotcrete crew was taking directions from my english speaking PB forman who was not on-site the entire time, I wonder how this went wrong?
A laser was not needed, this could have been done correctly with (3) items:
1. A piece of string.
2. A tape measure.
3. A person with an IQ over 75.
I have sent an email to the engineer, asking about what the correct way to repair this is and if they tell me this can be fixed with 100% no further issues, we may move forward, however, as several have pointed out, we could be opening a can of worms, this is a bit more complex than re-painting a wall.
My advice ///// if you can be at home GO OWNER BUILDER /////// I am going to regret this for a long time.
As far as the repair, I am wondering if it's worth it for 2.5" of depth, the pool is 19ft wide in the shallow end, and I would imagine you would need to chip forward towards the deep end to maintain a gradual slope, if you just chip the shallow end I would believe there would be a bump?
As for how we got here, bad communication, the lead shotcrete supervisor was sick so my spanish speaking shotcrete crew was taking directions from my english speaking PB forman who was not on-site the entire time, I wonder how this went wrong?
A laser was not needed, this could have been done correctly with (3) items:
1. A piece of string.
2. A tape measure.
3. A person with an IQ over 75.
I have sent an email to the engineer, asking about what the correct way to repair this is and if they tell me this can be fixed with 100% no further issues, we may move forward, however, as several have pointed out, we could be opening a can of worms, this is a bit more complex than re-painting a wall.
My advice ///// if you can be at home GO OWNER BUILDER /////// I am going to regret this for a long time.
I still feel you should leave it as is.
2" is an insignificant amount in over 3' of water. I bet you would have never noticed if it had not been measured.
If you do leave it, you'll need to update your signature:
Build in-progress, broke ground 11-16-2015.
33x19 free form, 7ft raise spa.
Baja shelf, 14'x 7'-9'ft. (16" deep)
3.33ft to 5.5ft. Quartzite flagstone coping
Jandy EQ
Brian, I almost spit my coffee all over my monitor! Thanks for the laugh!!
It makes you mad. It'd get me fired up but it sounds like so much work which is really not worth the 2 extra inches. That's just my opinion.
I can't believe thatdillhole foreman got in your face like that.
I can't believe that
Holy cow, Titan, I'm not sure what to say. How inflexible did you present yourself to the PB with your original complaint? And why didn't you just let the crew that was already there do the work? <<< makes no sense.
WOW, First thing I would do is tell the owner that forman better never set foot on my property again. If he wants to see another dollar of my money he either gets a new guy or takes over himself. Trip charge that's funny they should be worried about getting paid at all let alone tacking on charges.
I did not do an OB but was here every day except for steal and plumbing trenching I figured not much could go wrong and anything I did not like for those steps there would be ample opportunity do deal with it.
The foreman was a good guy but only around once or twice a day for 10 min tops. That is not enough time to stop major mistakes and as you are learning they difficult to impossible to deal with after the fact. They did not try to impose any restrictions on me talking to the subs infact for both the dig and gunite I was encouraged to be there. I do not speak spanish so there was a lot of pointing and hand signals but I was able to point out things that concerned me and even move and change the shape of my steps and shelf as it was being formed. The guys did not seem to mind (the beer I provided probably helped).
The cold joint would worry me if they can just chip/grind it level without having to reshoot that might be OK but adding new to old sounds like a potential problem. It may not be the depth you wanted and the thought of it will annoy you for a while but I think that will fade with time. If however you develop a crack in a year or two that will likely be ten times more stressful than a couple of inches of water.
I did not do an OB but was here every day except for steal and plumbing trenching I figured not much could go wrong and anything I did not like for those steps there would be ample opportunity do deal with it.
The foreman was a good guy but only around once or twice a day for 10 min tops. That is not enough time to stop major mistakes and as you are learning they difficult to impossible to deal with after the fact. They did not try to impose any restrictions on me talking to the subs infact for both the dig and gunite I was encouraged to be there. I do not speak spanish so there was a lot of pointing and hand signals but I was able to point out things that concerned me and even move and change the shape of my steps and shelf as it was being formed. The guys did not seem to mind (the beer I provided probably helped).
The cold joint would worry me if they can just chip/grind it level without having to reshoot that might be OK but adding new to old sounds like a potential problem. It may not be the depth you wanted and the thought of it will annoy you for a while but I think that will fade with time. If however you develop a crack in a year or two that will likely be ten times more stressful than a couple of inches of water.
Helen, please see the above posts. I have never raised my voice, I have remained calm and professional the entire time. I told the foreman this morning that I want to speak with the owner about the repair before we proceed. I told the sales person yesterday morning to advise the office not to schedule the repair before I could discuss it with them appears that did not happen. The reason for not letting them chip out the pool at this time is outlined above.
If it's going to be repaired I want to ensure it's done correctly, If the foreman can't even ensure the depth of the pool is correct, you think I am going to let them chip out the shell of the pool without getting the opinion of the owner and engineer? Also, I have a lifetime warrenty on the shell of the pool, the warrenty sounds great but should I have an issue with the repair down the road, what's it going to be like to get them to fix it, drain all the water, do the repair, patch the pebble plaster (you think that's going to match the rest of the pool). They are not going to replaster the entire pool and spa due to the repair being a different color.
Just for the record, I work in the insurance industry (CLAIMS), specifically in the construction world, we insure for workers comp, GL, commerical auto, builders risk, and Defective Constrution claims. We currently have over 10,000 defective construction claims from contractors that have "been doing their trade for 20+ years" mistakes happen, employees take short cuts. My job is managing a claims operation, I see what happens when something goes wrong, and trust me, it happens a lot more than people think. This is why you need to trust your contractor, but also validate what's being done to ensure it's the best option. After they are paid and 2 years down the road, you may have a big problem that they aren't going to fix.
Just an FYI, many defective construction issues don't always show up immediately.
Sorry, got off topic, but my point is many times in construction repairs, the medication is worse than the disease.
My fear (and I know this will happen) is that they will chip out what is needed and just hand mix any old trash cement and skim it on the top. it may look decent and be the correct depth, but I'd be very worried about delamination in the years to come.
If they are going to lower the depth, they need to chip down 1" below the rebar and reshoot it (under pressure).
The reason they won't do this:
1.) Its a lot of work
2.) Its going to be expensive to pay for a new cement truck, short load fee and delivery
3.) There will be a ton of rebound from the new mix bouncing off the existing which will be very messy and difficult to clean up
4.) The chances of them pulling off the transition from the shallow to deep end will be slim, so the plasterer will make up for it with more plaster in that area which reduce the depth (maybe even close to what it is now).
I am not saying that this is impossible, but risk verse gain doesn't add up in this situation.
If they are going to lower the depth, they need to chip down 1" below the rebar and reshoot it (under pressure).
The reason they won't do this:
1.) Its a lot of work
2.) Its going to be expensive to pay for a new cement truck, short load fee and delivery
3.) There will be a ton of rebound from the new mix bouncing off the existing which will be very messy and difficult to clean up
4.) The chances of them pulling off the transition from the shallow to deep end will be slim, so the plasterer will make up for it with more plaster in that area which reduce the depth (maybe even close to what it is now).
I am not saying that this is impossible, but risk verse gain doesn't add up in this situation.
I meant no offense -- I did just read through your entire thread and you have picked up quite a few mistakes along the way. It must be very frustrating for you.
LOL, none taken
Yes, it's been very frustrating. There are a couple contractors on this board who have also advise me to leave it alone as I am opening a can of worms. The right way to do the repair is outlined by Bdavis, I agree they aren't going to do that for exactly the reason he outlined. If they proceeded I would have ZERO input with the repair, or ensuring the slope of the pool was correct, what are the odds that gets done right? I may not be the smartest person on the planet or able to predict the future, but based on what's happened thus far, I don't think I am gonna roll the dice on them getting the repair done correctly. I am moving forward.
OK, good -- that you weren't offended and that you are going to move forward Your pool is going to be lovely and you will forget about the 2-inches since it will only be a factor in the first few feet. I love the look of quartzite!!!
Your pool is going to be lovely and you will forget about the 2-inches since it will only be a factor in the first few feet. I love the look of quartzite!!!
Its nice to see the signature got updated!
Its too late to raise everything, and that would add a whole bunch of new issues
Its too late to raise everything, and that would add a whole bunch of new issues
Honestly if i was in your situation, i would try to workout some type of compensation with the builder. 2" is not enough of a problem to me. Yes i would be upset but my water levels can very by that same amount during the summer evaporation without auto fill. At this point in the build with many other stages in the build still to come, picking battles with the builder is crucial. In my line of work, customers who are willing to work out a situation always come out ahead.
Agree 100%, perhaps they can add in the glass beads to my Tropics Blue or Aqua Blue Mini pebble plaster, or more Abalone or both. Perhaps the Firepit? well, that might be pushing it.
You know, the worst possible answer you could hear is NO! I would definitely ask.
That's one way to look at this situation but life is tough and their mistake is their mistake, but in the end that's not my problem.
In my line of work when parties fail to meet their contractual obligations the lawyers get involved, life is just not that simple anymore.
You are correct, it's only 2" of water (5% of the contracted depth, so if that's being picky, would a 2.5" mistake be a valid complaint? perhaps 3.5", 1FT? This is why we have contracts, this is why contactors have insurance and performance bonds. So if a 2" mistake is being too picky, can I just deduct 5% off my $67,000 contract and we are all good? It's just $3,350 and only 5% of the contract, recall the small 2" mistake was a 5% variation from what I contracted for. Of course that's not going to happen. I will sleep fine tonight, I am sure the workers will have food and shelter for their family and my "1st World Problem" of not allowing them to attempt to fix the missing 2" in my backyard pool did not cause them any discomfort.
Just to be clear sometimes with the written word meaning and intent can get misunderstood. The wink was me just trying to show no hard feelings to your original reply I was never upset with anything you wrote.