Shock/Tingle getting into/out of pool

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Barry321 said:
I talked to an electrical engineer today with my electric coop- like an actual electrical engineer- not someone that just calls them one and tinkers around with electrical stuff. . He's not a pool expert but he had no issue with me putting a ground rod 5-6 feet away from the equipment pad and running a wire to the pool pump lug and separating it from the pool bond. I know that goes against everything we hear and talk about but he had no issue with it.
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Please ask that electrical engineer if he is familiar with equipotential bonding and NEC 680.26?

You are opinion shopping to find what you like and asking people who have no understanding of these areas of the National Electric Code. Anyone who cannot cite what NEC 680.26 requires has no business giving an opinion on it.
 
Barry321 said:
I talked to an electrical engineer today with my electric coop- like an actual electrical engineer- not someone that just calls them one and tinkers around with electrical stuff. . He's not a pool expert but he had no issue with me putting a ground rod 5-6 feet away from the equipment pad and running a wire to the pool pump lug and separating it from the pool bond. I know that goes against everything we hear and talk about but he had no issue with it.
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Licensed electricians are required to learn the NEC but EEs do not learn the NEC in engineering school, at least when I went over 40 years ago. However I did learn about it in high school electrical shop class.

BTW, what exactly is an electric coop? Is this your power company or an intermediary of some sort?

A grounding rod is actually not a great way to dissipate electrical voltage. An 8' rod has about 25 ohms of resistance into Earth ground so if there is a voltage on the pump cover, it will still remain because of that resistance. A ground rod cannot drag the voltage to zero.
 
mas985 said:
BTW, what exactly is an electric coop? Is this your power company or an intermediary of some sort?
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In South Carolina, we have a number of electric cooperatives that belong to the parent organization The Electric Cooperatives of South Carolina. They buy power from one electric power utility- Santee Cooper- the state owned electric utility. Individual cooperatives are member owned and are mainly in more rural areas of the state.

"The Electric Cooperatives of South Carolina, Inc. (ECSC) is the statewide service and trade association for electric cooperatives in the state. Our members are 18 consumer-owned electric cooperatives, one wholesale power supply cooperative, one transmission service cooperative and one materials supply cooperative.

Together, they operate the largest electric distribution system in the state. More than 1.5 million South Carolinians, representing 800,000 accounts, in all 46 counties use electricity from electric cooperatives."
 
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ajw22 said:
Please ask that electrical engineer if he is familiar with equipotential bonding and NEC 680.26?

You are opinion shopping to find what you like and asking people who have no understanding of these areas of the National Electric Code. Anyone who cannot cite what NEC 680.26 requires has no business giving an opinion on it.
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I'm going to order the new pump before I do anything else. I have serious doubts about my current one given the corrosion on the housing and suspect that it's causing some of these issues (maybe all) given I don't recall these issuses the first few years I had the pool and as it's developed a leak and now is visibly corroded, it might be the source. Especially given the 6-10 volts it's measuring with the voltage tester even when the system is off.

So first up is a new pump, properly wired, and then we'll see where I stand. I need a new one anyway at this point.
 
While you're ordering and waiting you have hopefully killed the breakers to the pump, this is critical. Better yet lock out the breakers and/or disconnect wiring to the pump. Better yet, kill power to the light and any other powered devices in and around the pool. Still better and in addition, post Do Not Swim signs. I write this because your analysis shows a bonding problem in addition to the pump problem. While you're waiting, search for a licensed electrician experienced in pool safety and who is NEC knowledgeable. I would also urge you to carefully read of this letter: Swimming Pools and the Dangers of Electrocution At the bottom of the letter is a link to a video that is also worth watching, as it describes your scenario almost exactly - that link is YouTube. If any of that sounds too aggressive, it's just that several of us here are trying to save you and those who swim in your pool. One way to view the situation is that it was a stroke of luck to get the warning from the partial pump fault because it helped you identify some other potentially dangerous bonding inconsistencies. Peace be with you, be safe!
 
I forgot to add, With the one rail that is giving the shock, take you DVM and put it on tone.. Tough the leads together, if it beeps you have a closed circuit. Go hand rail to hand rail, you may need a cheater cable if you leads are no long enough. if they are bonded together at the cups the ladders bount into. you will have a closed "circuit" therfore bonded. you can also check various locations. if it is not a "closed circuit" take out the railing and check the cups they should be bonded individually but together on the loop. Bad motor windings could either be making connection to the housing (possibly causing voltage on your bonding line) I think we have this figured out, at least a few steps in the right direction.
 

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I thought the OP had said earlier, that with the pump off, power disconnected, the shock was still there.

To test, just turn off the breakers to the pump and see if the shock goes away or measure the voltage between the bond and pump housing.
 
nuttyp said:
While you're ordering and waiting you have hopefully killed the breakers to the pump, this is critical. Better yet lock out the breakers and/or disconnect wiring to the pump. Better yet, kill power to the light and any other powered devices in and around the pool. Still better and in addition, post Do Not Swim signs. I write this because your analysis shows a bonding problem in addition to the pump problem. While you're waiting, search for a licensed electrician experienced in pool safety and who is NEC knowledgeable. I would also urge you to carefully read of this letter: Swimming Pools and the Dangers of Electrocution At the bottom of the letter is a link to a video that is also worth watching, as it describes your scenario almost exactly - that link is YouTube. If any of that sounds too aggressive, it's just that several of us here are trying to save you and those who swim in your pool. One way to view the situation is that it was a stroke of luck to get the warning from the partial pump fault because it helped you identify some other potentially dangerous bonding inconsistencies. Peace be with you, be safe!
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Thanks. Yes- no one swimming in pool or even stepping in it.

Light breaker is off. I'll turn pool pump breaker off today.
 
mas985 said:
I thought the OP had said earlier, that with the pump off, power disconnected, the shock was still there.

To test, just turn off the breakers to the pump and see if the shock goes away or measure the voltage between the bond and pump housing.
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With the breakers off to the pump (or even the entire house) - when you use your tester and place on lead on the pump lug and one in the sand near the pad or even on the bonding wire that is hanging loose near the pad because I released it from the lug, it still measures anywhere from 6-10 volts.

The electrical engineer said this was because it was tied back into the panel and their system ground can fluctuate through the day due to it always trying to balance out everything with the power company equipment/system. (I'm probably describing it wrong). He said that's why it might meausre 6 volts and then 10 volts another time (which is what it does). Then, when I put the pool bonding wire back on the pool pump lug, it's sending that voltage back around the pool. (When I take the bonding wire off the pump lug, the voltage drops at the hand rail (and everywhere else) to under 0.1 volts.

To me that shows there is highly likely a problem with the wiring of the pump due to the corrosion that I can see on the housing from the leak. That's why job one for me (other than not using the pool at all) is ordering a new pump.
 
Barry321 said:
With the breakers off to the pump (or even the entire house) - when you use your tester and place on lead on the pump lug and one in the sand near the pad or even on the bonding wire that is hanging loose near the pad because I released it from the lug, it still measures anywhere from 6-10 volts.
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That means the NEV is from the power company.

Barry321 said:
The electrical engineer said this was because it was tied back into the panel and their system ground can fluctuate through the day due to it always trying to balance out everything with the power company equipment/system. (I'm probably describing it wrong). He said that's why it might meausre 6 volts and then 10 volts another time (which is what it does). Then, when I put the pool bonding wire back on the pool pump lug, it's sending that voltage back around the pool. (When I take the bonding wire off the pump lug, the voltage drops at the hand rail (and everywhere else) to under 0.1 volts.
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The issue with some power systems is that there can be an imbalance in the 3 phase lines which can put a large current on the neutral and if undersized results in a voltage relative to Earth ground.

It sounds like they are admitting it is their issue. Normally, the threshold for investigation and mitigation is more than 4V. I am surprised that they have issued a trouble ticket to fix the issue.

Barry321 said:
To me that shows there is highly likely a problem with the wiring of the pump due to the corrosion that I can see on the housing from the leak. That's why job one for me (other than not using the pool at all) is ordering a new pump.
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Yes but that is not the cause of the voltage problem.
 
Since @mas985 correctly and astutely reminded us that the problem remained even when power was removed from the pump via mains and breakers, perhaps the @mas985 conclusions are the most likely. The pump still needs to be replaced for other obvious reasons. If NEV is the likely root cause of the original complaint - shocks incurred when grabbing the rail while standing in the water - then that elusive qualified & experienced electrician is still needed. Frustrating indeed that such a person is hard to find, but if found that person may have better luck negotiating with the power company. Also, I'm not sure how the rail and water could be at different potential unless the one of the two is not properly bonded, but I'm not sure of much at this point. So perhaps it's time for me to stop commenting. Or even past time :-|
 
mas - I don't see what else I can do with my power company. I don't think they are going to do anything else. The guy came out and took the meter off and the panel off and saw nothing. He ran a test on the system to measure the power coming in and going out (not sure of the terms) and said everything was right on target. Only thing he said was the ground was secured at different spot than he would have secured it but he said where it was secured was perfectly acceptable (just in an alternate spot in the box) but he tighetened it up even though it was tight he said- and he inspected it closely. He looked at the box for a good 2-3 minutes.

Apparently, from what I could tell with him explaining things, their ground is fine in his opinion and it will fluctuate some wtih the voltage depending on weather, power flucuations in the neighborhood at any point in the day, etc.. I just don't think he's going to do anything. Nice guy, he was concerned that this was such an issue for me. But from his viewpoint, their panel box and setup is working as designed.

I'm wondering if I should take up the electrician's suggestion to come back and drive another ground rod in the ground near the panel box and have him install the GFI breakers for the new pump I'm buying.

Took cover off pump. Looks like ground wire is firmly secured. (breakers were off). Getting 11 volts on my tester when touching to lug and loose bond wire that runs up under the pool deck. I also placed one probe directly on ground wire inside the cover and also got about 11 volts.

My other option is to work even harder to find a specific pool electrician that installs these things all the time. They are hard to find because they work for the pool builders, they aren't advertising on facebook or anywhere else.

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You cannot eliminate all stray voltages.

If you have a good equipotential bonding grid around the pool you will not feel any stray voltages, which is its purpose.

While you have focused on finding the stray voltage you should also fix your equipotential bonding to not feel any tingles.
 
Barry321 said:
mas - I don't see what else I can do with my power company. I don't think they are going to do anything else. The guy came out and took the meter off and the panel off and saw nothing.
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Actually he did see something. He said their ground will have some voltage which is exactly the issue. They just think it is ok when it is not.

Barry321 said:
Apparently, from what I could tell with him explaining things, their ground is fine in his opinion and it will fluctuate some wtih the voltage depending on weather, power flucuations in the neighborhood at any point in the day, etc.. I just don't think he's going to do anything. Nice guy, he was concerned that this was such an issue for me. But from his viewpoint, their panel box and setup is working as designed.
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Ground and/or neutral should have zero voltage ideally. The fact that they think that is no problem is the issue. I don't think they are going to do anything either.

Barry321 said:
I'm wondering if I should take up the electrician's suggestion to come back and drive another ground rod in the ground near the panel box and have him install the GFI breakers for the new pump I'm buying.
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The housing on the pump is already connected to a grounding rod via the house ground which is what has the voltage. If you wanted to use a second grounding wire for the pump then the house ground would need to be disconnected from the pump. Otherwise, if both the house ground and the new ground are connected to the pump and you connect the bonding wire to the housing, you will have exactly the same problem as you did before. The bonding wire must be isolated from the house ground.

Barry321 said:
Took cover off pump. Looks like ground wire is firmly secured. (breakers were off). Getting 11 volts on my tester when touching to lug and loose bond wire that runs up under the pool deck. I also placed one probe directly on ground wire inside the cover and also got about 11 volts.
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The house neutral/ground is energized relative to Earth ground so you will get a voltage from there to the bonding wire which is in contact with Earth ground. Unless the power company does something about it, it will always be there. Nothing you can do will change that except going off grid.

Barry321 said:
My other option is to work even harder to find a specific pool electrician that installs these things all the time. They are hard to find because they work for the pool builders, they aren't advertising on facebook or anywhere else.
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I don't see how that will help. An electrician can't fix the power companies issues.

Sounds like you will just have to live with the issues. Keeping the pool bonding separate from the house neutral/ground is probably the only solution.
 

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