*Shallow end, being shocked when grabbing railing*
- Thread starter gamerfan2004
- Start date
What is the conduit running from the meter socket to the main panel? If it's plastic, turn off the main breaker and lift the neutral coming from the meter socket. 180Hz like James said is the third harmonic and everything electronic can add to it. By lifting the neutral coming from the meter socket you are completely eliminating anything coming into you home from the power company. The reason it only works with plastic piping is the neutral is tied to the can in the meter.
Do you have any power backups on computers, TVs or anything else?
Being on the third harmonic it becomes a relationship between the neutral and the EGC which you have been playing with at the pump and timer. Might revisit the solar panels again, you turn off the breaker but did you lift or disconnect the neutral from the solar panel system? Photovoltaic inverters converting dc to ac are known sources of harmonics.
First off is making sure the pool area is safe by repairing the equipotential plane making sure it is in good order.
Do you have any power backups on computers, TVs or anything else?
Being on the third harmonic it becomes a relationship between the neutral and the EGC which you have been playing with at the pump and timer. Might revisit the solar panels again, you turn off the breaker but did you lift or disconnect the neutral from the solar panel system? Photovoltaic inverters converting dc to ac are known sources of harmonics.
First off is making sure the pool area is safe by repairing the equipotential plane making sure it is in good order.
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@JamesW I received the oscilloscope, so I'll hopefully have time tonight to test it. I've had to redirect my focus multiple times; I wish I could clone myself to assist with all of the things to take care of
@NowintersinAZ Thank you for your knowledge and input, I greatly appreciate it. The meter and main panel butt right up against each other, no conduit. I was thinking about scheduling the power company to turn off the power to the house and removing everything coming into the panel from the meter. There aren't any battery backups in the house.
As for the solar panels, I did find that the Riso on the inverter isn't performing correctly. The inverter maxes out at 8.8 MΩ but generally starts at 8 MΩ when the sun rises. When the electrician came out he said that they should all operate at 20 MΩ. Yeah, that's huge and I've watched it every day since; the only way to get it back up to 20 MΩ is to reboot the inverter. I called them and they did notice that the system isn't performing properly. I'm truly hoping this is the source, even though we did disconnect everything previously (commons, neutrals, and ground).
Thank you again everyone for your help. I'll do my best to get some more readings and staying on top of the solar issue to see when they'll be out to check it again.
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I think that if you can watch the voltage, current, frequency and waveform while connecting or disconnecting different things, you should be able to see a change in all of the readings that corresponds to what you're doing when you get to the source of the stray current.
Note: Only do what you are 100% sure that you can do safely.
Consult a local professional expert for advice on anything that you are not 100% sure about.
Note: Only do what you are 100% sure that you can do safely.
Consult a local professional expert for advice on anything that you are not 100% sure about.
If you do this make sure they lift the neutral in the meter as well. This will eliminate any transients coming in on the neutral. Have you bonded the railing yet?
If you have not done this, another thing you can do is get a long wire and a continuity tester. attach it to the ECG coming from the house at the pump. Take the other end of the wire and the meter with you to all metal parts around the pool that should be bonded. Touch one lead to the end of the wire and the other lead to the metal parts. You should get a beep or at most very low ohms reading. This will tell you what is bonded and what is not. As always be safe if you don't understand or have reservations ask here or call as James said a professional.
Thank you for the information. I'm absolutely on board with calling in backup if there's something I'm iffy on when it comes to electricity. I'll need to run out to the store to get a 100' wire to do the testing around the entire pool. I haven't attempted to run a legit separate bond to the railing yet. Hopefully, within the next week, I'll be able to test that. I'm uploading videos to YouTube now to show what the oscilloscope displayed. I'll post the links once they are finished processing.
Thank you for staying with me through this issue.
BTW, I heard back about the solar panels. They are gathering some more days, maybe 2 or 3 more days worth, but this is what they said, "System performance has jumped a little bit since the electrician rebooted the system. Need more production data to determine site visit. Possible wiring error/string out after Removal and reinstallation of solar panels."
Thank you for staying with me through this issue.
BTW, I heard back about the solar panels. They are gathering some more days, maybe 2 or 3 more days worth, but this is what they said, "System performance has jumped a little bit since the electrician rebooted the system. Need more production data to determine site visit. Possible wiring error/string out after Removal and reinstallation of solar panels."
Definitely interesting to actually see the signal.
The first one looks the most like a sine wave with a consistent noise of some type.
The second two are more triangle shape.
Looks like they are all about 60 hz and about 2 to 4 volts.
The next step would be to watch the signals as you connect and disconnect things or change the power draw to see if the signal changes in some way.
If you can measure the current between the two spots at the same time, that might be helpful.
Disconnecting all 3 wires from the power company while watching the signal should show some change.
The power wires can be disconnected by shutting off the main breaker, but the neutral would have to be disconnected.
Touching the main wiring should only be done by a qualified electrician.
The neutral can carry a lot of current, so don't underestimate it as not dangerous.
The first one looks the most like a sine wave with a consistent noise of some type.
The second two are more triangle shape.
Looks like they are all about 60 hz and about 2 to 4 volts.
The next step would be to watch the signals as you connect and disconnect things or change the power draw to see if the signal changes in some way.
If you can measure the current between the two spots at the same time, that might be helpful.
Disconnecting all 3 wires from the power company while watching the signal should show some change.
The power wires can be disconnected by shutting off the main breaker, but the neutral would have to be disconnected.
Touching the main wiring should only be done by a qualified electrician.
The neutral can carry a lot of current, so don't underestimate it as not dangerous.
The oscilloscope looks like it can do up to 100 MHz.
If you can get a toner to put a (<100MHz) signal on each suspect line, you should be able to see the signal on the oscilloscope when you tone the leaking line.
If you can get a toner to put a (<100MHz) signal on each suspect line, you should be able to see the signal on the oscilloscope when you tone the leaking line.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get my hands on a toner yet. I'll attempt to coordinate with someone to assist me while taking measurements while we disconnect and reconnect things. I certainly have a list of areas to look into. I'll keep everyone updated. Thank you again, for taking the time to help.
The triangle shape is unusual and it might help identify the source.
I would share the readings with the power company, the solar power company and any utilities so that they can see if the readings help them to identify the source.
Maybe an engineer will be able to interpret the readings more than we can or possibly they can suggest new tests that will be more helpful.
I would share the readings with the power company, the solar power company and any utilities so that they can see if the readings help them to identify the source.
Maybe an engineer will be able to interpret the readings more than we can or possibly they can suggest new tests that will be more helpful.
All of the utility companies and electricians should have toner equipment.
Ask them to bring a toner with them when they come so that they can tone their lines while you watch the oscilloscope to see if the tone shows up on the screen.
Ask them to bring a toner with them when they come so that they can tone their lines while you watch the oscilloscope to see if the tone shows up on the screen.
This video shows a signal generator (transmitter/toner) at 32 kHz, which should be visible on the oscilloscope and it should also be detectable by the receiver when the signal generator is connected to the problem line.
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@JamesW Much appreciated!
Quick update: I had a power outage the other night 7/18 at 12:30 am. I ran out to the pool to take a voltage reading:
237 mV concrete to the railing
400 mV railing to the water
Power came back on within a couple of minutes by the time I got out there:
1.14 V concrete to the railing
1.57 V railing to the water
Quick update: I had a power outage the other night 7/18 at 12:30 am. I ran out to the pool to take a voltage reading:
237 mV concrete to the railing
400 mV railing to the water
Power came back on within a couple of minutes by the time I got out there:
1.14 V concrete to the railing
1.57 V railing to the water
This was a random power outage. Unfortunately, I've been inundated with other work and haven't had a chance to plan a time to get the neutral off the meter.
it just means that it still could be coming in on the service as the cause of the stray voltage could have lost power also.
Here you say "main breaker to the house turned off." Is that from the power company or the solar panels?
And unfortunately life does get in the way sometimes.
If it is coming in on the neutral, what are the possible causes and fixes?
Does the way they distribute the three phases contribute to the issue?
What about isolating circuit by circuit in the main breaker panel (flip fuses) while observing the scope? Trying to see if this is a current coming from your house and finding an unexpected ground loop?
Just trying to rule out anything on a circuit. Solar should be disconnected the whole time too.
Just trying to rule out anything on a circuit. Solar should be disconnected the whole time too.