Scammed by pool contractor, trying to pick back up the pieces

[pciccone]

Edit by Jim R.

Our pool builder left us high and dry and I am hoping there are some good people out there who can help me self-perform what I can to get the pool working. We are working on getting someone to help with the pavers, retaining walls and the outdoor kitchen areas but I am taking on the plumbing, control systems, sprinkler and other non-construction type items. Overall, we are told we have another $35,000 of work left in the end.

With all that said, the reason for this topic is I am hoping someone who is a Jandy expert, or just a pool professional who knows the plumbing can double check my diagram to see if am plumbing the order of things correctly. I mounted the Jandy Aqualink RS, got enough programming to get the ePump working and keep the pool clean (since it's filled) while we work on the rest. Because the cold is here, I am trying to see if I can get the rest of the plumbing done this week before it gets increasing difficult. Would someone mind checking the attached diagram to let me know if I have the order correct before I bring the rest of the pipes up from the ground in the proper spots? We have a dedicated cleaner return line, 2 LED deck jets (shared 1.5" pipe) and a spa overflow-type setup. I am not sure if I have the JVA and pipe positions correct. I want to be sure, because this will be very hard to change after plumbed. Your help and time are very much appreciated. We are mentally exhausted from this already, with almost 10 months of aggravation and we have no end in sight any time soon. Your help here, goes a long way.

PS - If anyone is in the Woodstock, GA area who also knows plumbing, Jandy, and pools in general we would love to talk with you. We still have to get other accessories mounted, like the spa light, the cleaner port/bulkhead installed, and the water features installed (2 deck jets). We could use an expert for a few days around here
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[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP. Hate to hear of your problems. We can help you through this if you are handy.

What type of pressure return cleaner will you be using?

Do you need a boost pump for when you want to run the pressure cleaner?

How will you turn the cleaner on and off the way you have it plumbed?

Which valves are you putting motorized actuators on?

Read This BEFORE You Post and put a list of the equipment you will be installing in your signature. It will help us give you more specific guidance.

 

[pciccone]

Allen, thanks for your reply and offer to assist! I have updated my signature with more specific equipment. The attached photo showing the proposed plumbing diagram shows where I proposed an automated valved (labeled as "JVA") and where I propose a manual valve (labeled as "2-way or 3-way"). This Polaris 360 will not require a booster pump, but by positioning the JVAs, and regulating the variable speed ePump I can direct the appropriate amount of pressure to the vacuum via the dedicated port (if I designed this correctly) by opening the vacuum port and closing the pool return via each automated JVA.

Here are my thoughts for each mode:

- Normal (spa spillover, deck jets off, pump low speed):
Suction JVA - Pool drain/skimmer side OPEN. Spa drain CLOSED.
Pool/Spa Return JVA - Spa return OPEN. Pool Return OPEN.
Cleaner JVA - Cleaner CLOSED. Pool Return OPEN.
Pool Return JVA - Pool Return OPEN. Deck Jets CLOSED.

- Party/In-Use Mode (spa spillover, deck jets on, pump higher speed to move water and deck jets):
Suction JVA - Pool drain/skimmer side OPEN. Spa drain CLOSED.
Pool/Spa Return JVA - Spa return OPEN. Pool Return OPEN.
Cleaner JVA - Cleaner CLOSED. Pool Return OPEN.
Pool Return JVA - Pool Return OPEN. Deck Jets OPEN.

- Vacuum Mode (return solely directed to cleaner pressure port, pump speed set to optimum cleaner pressure required)
Suction JVA - Pool drain/skimmer side OPEN. Spa drain CLOSED.
Pool/Spa Return JVA - Spa return CLOSED. Pool Return OPEN.
Cleaner JVA - Cleaner OPEN. Pool Return CLOSED.
Pool Return JVA - Pool Return N/A. Deck Jets N/A. (N/A because JVA above has this closed completely)

- Spa Only: (suction and return only at spa, pump speed set to spa needs - might have two speeds, high and low in controller)
Suction JVA - Pool drain/skimmer side CLOSED. Spa drain OPEN.
Pool/Spa Return JVA - Spa return OPEN. Pool Return CLOSED.
Cleaner JVA - Cleaner N/A. Pool Return N/A. (N/A because JVA above has all water directed to SPA)
Pool Return JVA - Pool Return N/A. Deck Jets N/A. (N/A because JVA above has all water directed to SPA)
View attachment 88442

 

[Dirk]

Hi PC, and welcome. So sorry to hear about your contractor problems. I'm a fraternity brother in that regard. I know things are rough right now. Visualize! I was so stressed during my ordeal, and let it get to me, but now it's over, as yours will be before you know it, and my pool is awesome, as yours will be, too! Hang in there. You've come to the right place. Not only to get you through the rest of the build, but to help you take care of your pool once it's done.

I have one attachment showing that doesn't resolve to an image. I'm only seeing three.

My Pentair salt cell requires a straight run of 12"-18" before the unit, for good flow. Check your salt cell's owner manual for any such requirement and plan accordingly.

Some pumps have similar requirements, check the manual on yours for that.

I see that most of your PVC work is done, but if you modify or add things, try not to jam components too close together unless you have to. Here's the guide to follow: imagine one of the components fails and needs to be replaced. You'll need to cut it out and put a new one in with PVC couplers. Plan ahead where you can so you'll be able to do that. Otherwise, you end up having to replace the faulty component along with enough good ones in order to glue everything back together.

Ask lots of questions. Someone here will have the answer. Do fill in your signature, as best you can. That'll help us help you. Allen has already spotted the cleaner issue. Do try to answer questions as well as ask. Allen needs your feedback in order to best advise you.

Good luck. Next summer you'll be lounging in your pool, enjoying that beautiful view, and this will all be behind you...

- - - Updated - - -

We were typing at the same time, it seems...

 

[Jimrahbe]

p,

I admit that I did not take as much time as I should have, but I ran into a couple of problems with your proposed operation. It may just be me...

Keep in mind that an automated Jandy only has two positions... They can be 90 degrees or 180 degrees (you can mechanically adjust them a little) but you can't have 90 degrees some of the time and 180 degrees other times on the same valve. It appears that is what you have done on the top valve..

Keep in mind that most automation systems turn the Intake valve and the Return valve based solely on being in the Pool mode, Spa mode, or Spillover mode. You can't turn this valve anytime you feel like it with the other two valves...

They operate like this...

Pool mode... All the water is sucked from the pool through the pump and then through the filter and heater and back to the pool...

Spa mode.. All the water is sucked from the Spa through the pump and then through the filter and heater and back to the Spa...

Spillover mode.. All the water is sucked from the pool through the pump and then through the filter and heater and back to the Spa...

The above operation is fixed by the automation system. Anything else you do has to basically live with the above rules.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[pciccone]

Thank you both for the comments, all of which I am keeping notes on! Keeping in mind we can either do 180 or 90 degrees on the JVAs, and the fixed POOL/SPA/SPILLOVER modes. I have revised what I was planning, let me know if this is better? Much of the plumbing will be removed this week and re-organized, much of what the previous contractor did will be removed and re-done properly, keeping space in-mind.

- SPILLOVER MODE (Deck jets off, pump low speed):
Suction JVA - Pool drain/skimmer side OPEN. Spa drain CLOSED.
Pool/Spa Return JVA - Spa return OPEN. Pool Return CLOSED.
Cleaner/Pool JVA - Cleaner N/A. Pool Return N/A. (N/A because JVA above has all water directed to SPA)

- SPA ONLY: (suction and return only at spa, pump speed set to spa needs)
Suction JVA - Pool drain/skimmer side CLOSED. Spa drain OPEN.
Pool/Spa Return JVA - Spa return OPEN. Pool Return CLOSED.
Cleaner/Pool JVA - Cleaner N/A. Pool Return N/A. (N/A because JVA above has all water directed to SPA)

- POOL ONLY (Deck jets off, pump low speed):
Suction JVA - Pool drain/skimmer side OPEN. Spa drain CLOSED.
Pool/Spa Return JVA - Spa return CLOSED. Pool Return OPEN.
Cleaner/Pool JVA - Cleaner CLOSED. Pool Return OPEN.

- Vacuum Scene/Mode - POOL ONLY (return solely directed to cleaner pressure port, pump speed set to optimum cleaner pressure required)
Suction JVA - Pool drain/skimmer side OPEN. Spa drain CLOSED.
Pool/Spa Return JVA - Spa return CLOSED. Pool Return OPEN.
Cleaner/Pool JVA - Cleaner OPEN. Pool Return CLOSED.

- All On / Party Scene - SPILLOVER MODE + Turn on Water Feature JVA.

** Water Feature JVA - Completely independent runs on Aux - can be set on or off by itself. Will run at 90 degrees, either both open or main line only open. Never can close all the way. 2-Way valve after JVA is for controlling the approximate water flow to the jets only.

View attachment 88451

 

[ajw22]

In spillover mode you really want 80% of the water through the pool returns and 20% through the spa return. Just enough water through the spa return to give a nice waterfall. You don't want the spillover to be rapids.

So you want 3 settings - Pool 100%/Spa 0; Pool 80%/Spa 20%; Pool 0/Spa 100%

The way you get that is adding another JVA to the SPA return line after the existing POOL/SPA JVA. POOL/SPA JVA will do Pool 80%/Spa 20% & Pool 0/Spa 100%. Yous et the valve so it does not close all the way for the 20% flow. Then when you want no SPA flow you close the other JVA in the SPA line.

Now you have 3 modes - POOL Only; POOL with spillover; SPA only.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think your Levolor K-1100 Pool Fill is connected correctly. It needs to be connected to house water to add water to the pool. The way you have it connected it will not add any water.

Do you have a check valve in your blower air line? Check valve in your SPA return line to prevent it draining down into pool? I see the check valve in your suction line before your pump? See Swimming Pool Check Valves, Use, Selection, Installation

You don't need a CV between the heater and the SWG.

Connect a heater bypass valve so you can take the heater out of the water flow for maintenance or when the water PH is not good for the heater core.

If you want to get really fancy also put a SWG bypass valve so the SWG can be removed .

 

[Jimrahbe]

Allen,

With an automation system, the spillover mode sucks all the water from the pool and sends it to the spa... It is not the same as having a make up valve that lets the spa trickle into the pool.

The Spillover mode automatically moves the Intake and Return valve.

You cannot "automatically" have three flow setting like you can with manual valves.

p,

If what you want is a trickle of water over your spa, then that is not what automation call the "Spillover mode."

With a SWCG running a constant overflow of the spa into the pool will cause your pH to quickly increase. In fact, we recommend running the overflow when we want the pH to increase.

To add a "Make up valve" you take water from the pool side return and pass it though a manual Jandy valve and connect the output of the Jandy valve to a check valve and then to the Spa return side plumbing...

Here is a diagram... Jandy Valve Plumbing Schematics - INYOPools.com


The top pic is for a Basic Pool and Spa Combination Plumbing and shows the make up valve..

Thanks,

Jim R.

I recommend that you use one of the diagrams rather than trying to make up your own.

 

[ajw22]

I think we are using “spillover” in two different contexts. You are talking about a specific automation mode. I am talking about if water is routed to the Spa without SPA suction on causing the spillover. What automation modes do that is TBD.

I can get three flow settings using 2 valves. Then it needs to be translated into the automation programming.

I don’t know the limitations of the Jandy RS6 and that may prevent doing what I described.

 

[pciccone]

OK, taking into consideration all the advice, I did the following:

- Added a CV to the blower (and I also understand now the height it needs to be at)
- Remove the CV before the salt cell
- Added a CV on the spa return (this totally makes sense to me, glad this was found)
- Added a heater bypass and (2) 3-way valves for it
- Added a "spa make-up" from the pool return to the spa return, with a CV to prevent water from the spa going backwards. I was planning on doing automation to only run spillover for a short while each day (only to freshen spa water), then pool only for the rest of the time to overcome this particular issue.

For reference, the water-top off was just a placeholder to where it will add the water into the pool. The rest of the diagram showing city water connection was omitted for simplicity sake. I was only focused on the pool plumbing loop for now.

View attachment 88461

 

[ajw22]

Heater bypass can be done with a 3 way valve between filter and heater and a CV between the heater and SWG.

 

[Dirk]

When you bypass a heater, should there be water in it, or do you need to be able to drain it dry and/or blow it out. Something to plan for or plumb for if the latter...

 

[PoolGate]

You are in good hands with the above guys. One thing I will point out is to check your heater directions and make sure your heater exhaust has the proper clearance from your house. It generates a lot of heat. The instructions specify clearances.

Quick clarification of the JVAs: You can set the limits for these easily by opening them up and putting the stop points on either end where you want them. They then are "on" (stop 1) or "off" (stop 2). They have a manual 3 way switch on the bottom of the JVA which will inverse the operation and allow you to manually activate the JVAs. Basically "forward | off | reverse". And not to throw in a monkey wrench, but Jandy does have a "smart JVA" controller that will allow the switches to be set programmatically in 10% increments through iAqualink. This controller goes inline between the JVA connection and your system board. They require the expensive OneTouch ($500) wall controller to configure however. I tried without the OneTouch and was unable to assign them properly to a port so never got them working.

Also if you need another free relay, you can use the solar aux connection. I used it for my low-voltage lights. And while the JVAs do not actually use a relay, the design of the system is such that one has to be reserved for the JVA. Very frustrating if you want to control other things!

Good luck!

- - - Updated - - -

When you bypass a heater, should there be water in it, or do you need to be able to drain it dry and/or blow it out. Some to plan for or plumb for if the latter...

Jandy has a bypass system that attaches directly to the heater inputs. It is optional for this heater model. I have never bypassed mine I don't know if there is any reason to I think having water flow through it is probably better for the heat exchangers.

 

[ajw22]

When you bypass a heater, should there be water in it, or do you need to be able to drain it dry and/or blow it out. Some to plan for or plumb for if the latter...

Is that a question or a statement? I don’t understand the point.

Heater bypass is used at pool opening when the water PH may not be stable yet. Also used if the heater develops leaks and you can take it out of the loop until repair. It is handy to have at times. No special drains are needed.

 

[Dirk]

It was a question for others here, on behalf of the OP. I learned here that a heater (some, or all?) adds quite a bit of resistance to a pool's circulation system, like as much as 30%, which means one could bypass their heater in the off season (for months at a time) to substantially reduce energy costs, not just for short periods for maintenance. If you have your heater bypassed for long periods, should you leave water in it, or should you blow it out dry? And if it's better to "store" it dry, you'd need to build in some sort of drain. Or is leaving it out of service like that not recommended?

I posed this question for the OP, because my pad was plumbed such that I have no room to even add a bypass, or a drain, for the heater, and so can't take advantage of such a MO.

 

[pciccone]

In listening to advice, at the bottom of the heater I will add a T coming from the 3-way valve bypass at the top. From the heater outlet: 1) Drain, 2) CV and 3) bypass "T" (from above 3-way bypass valve).

 

[ajw22]

That heater drain line is unlikely to do anything. If you want to drain the heater you open the winterization ports (drain cocks)which is at the lowest points.

 

[Dirk]

I don't know enough about designing a pool's plumbing, so I can only ask questions.

- Check valves do add resistance, some anyway. Why is there one before the pump?

- Why is there a 2-way for the laminars? Can't the JVA before it be adjusted enough to get the affect you want? And if not, can the 2-way be set so that it can't block off the flow 100%. You've got a possible scenario there where both valves could be positioned so to dead-head the main pump.

- You've got a check valve after the heater that looks to be a three-way or T. Is there such a thing?

- What is the anode for? And why is it on that side of the bypass? Is it only needed by the heater? Or is it the type that protects the whole pool?

I think something is amiss in and around the heater, either the way you've got it thought out, or the way it's drawn...

 

[ajw22]

I don't know enough about designing a pool's plumbing, so I can only ask questions.

- Check valves do add resistance, some anyway. Why is there one before the pump?

Keep the pump primed and not drain back into the suction line of the pool. It is optional and not a big deal if not there with most modern pumps.

- You've got a check valve after the heater that looks to be a three-way or T. Is there such a thing?

That is not drawn the way it will be installed. From the heater water out will be a check valve to not allow water to flow back into the heater. Then comes the T for water in from the bypass valve. When in bypass the water will flow from the bypass T to the pool and the CV prevent it from flowing back into the heater.

- What is the anode for? And why is it on that side of the bypass? Is it only needed by the heater? Or is it the type that protects the whole pool?

Swimming Pool Sacrificial Anode

The In-Line Anode can be used with 1 1/2" and 2" piping and mounts directly to metal filter or heater core. It has clear PVC construction for easy anode inspection. Also features a weatherproof installation sticker that allows the user to monitor service.

 

[Dirk]

Thanks Allen.

I would think a check valve anywhere in line would keep the water from flowing backward. And he's already got one after the heater. And if the system is water tight, it's airtight, which means once the pump was primed it would stay primed. That's how it works on my setup, anyway, even with a solar system that introduces air into the plumbing. I suppose it would help with priming after the pump lid was removed, for cleaning, but that doesn't seem to matter with my pump. As you point out, depends on the pump's self-priming ability.

Regarding the anode, I was just pointing out that the anode in its current location would not protect anything but the heater when the heater was bypassed. To protect light niches and ladders, etc, all the time, it would need to be on the other side of the bypass. If the heater is bypassed, does its core need to be protected from standing water? Perhaps another reason to empty the heater of water while its bypassed for any length of time?