Scale, I need help please

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pooldv said:
Yes, the 0-100 is percentage of the time it is making chlorine in the cycle. I think you said it runs on a 3 hour cycle. So, on 50% it will make chlorine for 1-1/2 hours of the 3 hour cycle.
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I wonder as an example: If I have it on for just say 1 hour at 50% Do you know how long the "on - off" cycle is? I mean is it on and then off for 10 min cycles, maybe 15 on and 15 off? I am curious as to how often it turns on and off and if it is based on maybe a hour of time? It must be set on a timeframe, I would think % of each per hour.....The reason I am asking is the lady tech at Hayward (that really did nor seem qualified) said I needed to run it a min of 6 hours for it to complete a full cycle. This really is important to know as if it based on a 24 hour clock, it could not work correctly on a % basis if not run continuous for 24 hrs. . From what she said, I am thinking it is based on a 6 hour time frame to complete whatever % it is set at? If that is the case then it would be 3 hours on / off, which does not make sense. Not trying to be anal, but since I am on a separate time clock for the SWG, it could make a difference. Probably over thinking this.
 
I agree with your thinking. It would be good to know what the cycle is for the on/off period so that you can best manage the run time vs percentage. 1 hour, 30min on 30min off or 2 hour, 1hr on 1hr off, etc. I don't know the answer though.
 
Nah, you're not over-thinking if you run short cycle times. I would want to know that too. I don't see the SWC or model in your signature. If you add that, we could look it up.

Your manual may tell you the cycle. Mine is a 10 minute cycle, so 40% is 4 minutes on, 6 minutes off. The cooling fan on my power supply runs coincident with the cell, so I can hear when it's running. I know it's different from USA, so I'm lucky... but my cell housing is clear, so I can just look and see the cloud of bubbles coming off my miniature chlorine factory and then of course no cloud when it's in the off cycle.
 
I have a Hayward AquaRite AQR15 (t15) cell

Have it set today at 25% for 8.5 for hrs.

This morning numbers are
Ph 7.4
C 5
CC 0
TA 110
CH 300
CYA ~55
Salt 3200
CSI -.22


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I asked one of our experts, and the AquaRite cycles every 180 minutes. He thinks the full % is at the beginning of each cycle, so at 25% it would chlorinate for 45 minutes, then wait for 135 minutes, reverse polarity, and then do 45 minutes / 135 minutes again. So with 8.5 hours, you'd get 3x45 = 135 minutes each day. It restarts the cycle after it's off. So the AQR T-15 on your 8.5 hr cycle is delivering about 1 ppm FC per day in your 15K pool.

When you get a minute, adding the AQR T-15 SWG to your signature will help everyone know your new status.

Hope that's helpful
 
needsajet said:
I asked one of our experts, and the AquaRite cycles every 180 minutes. He thinks the full % is at the beginning of each cycle, so at 25% it would chlorinate for 45 minutes, then wait for 135 minutes, reverse polarity, and then do 45 minutes / 135 minutes again. So with 8.5 hours, you'd get 3x45 = 135 minutes each day. It restarts the cycle after it's off. So the AQR T-15 on your 8.5 hr cycle is delivering about 1 ppm FC per day in your 15K pool.

When you get a minute, adding the AQR T-15 SWG to your signature will help everyone know your new status.

Hope that's helpful
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VERY helpful, thank you. I did update my sig, I have learned I have a ~14K pool (based on fill rate) and I have the SWG set at 35% for 8.5 hrs. What would the chlorine be if I leave it at 35% and increase to 9 Hours? I think I follow your formula, but not certain. Thanks for helping with that, much appreciated. (I think 198 min per day in a 14K pool?) Not sure what that means for PPM.

Unfortunately the scale reappeared after one day of running SWG. I talked with Hayward tech again, and he was set on telling me this is normal. I asked him why 90+% of AquaRite SWG users do not experience this, he basically blew me off with no answer and saying they do. I understand this is somewhat common, and I understand the cell switches polarity to remove scale, but I would have buckets of scale in a week at this rate. Has to be more than "normal" scale production. Is it possible my cell is for some reason malfunctioning and producing more scale than a normal (different) cell might produce? Maybe the perfect storm so to speak? My neighbor has the same fill water, the same SWG, and no troubles. (his pool is only a couple months old) I am thinking of asking to get a different cell to see if that helps. Do you think it might? My water is ands has been near perfect, with a constant negative CSI, usually between -2 and -3. The conversation with the Hayward tech was try to run it at a lesser % for longer times, but I can already see after the re appearance of scale that is not going to work. I need to get this figured out, I hate having scale in the pool. I like it perfect.
Thank for hanging in there with me on this.
Mark
 
Have you talked to the company you bought it from to see about getting a replacement under warranty? I agree that something is off here. There are LOTS of people on TFP and everywhere else using this SWG. Including some longtime TFP members who live in the southwest with water that has high potential to scale.
 
From what I understand, Hayward is the one I have to deal with concerning warranty. The feeling I got from them was they were not very willing to admit something was wrong but after I make some adjustments if no improvement, told me they would consider replacing the cell if it did not help. But they did not commit to it. They keep going back to saying it is normal for it to make scale and the cell is designed to clean itself which removes scale, but my point is it's producing much more scale than it should. If the water chemistry was off it would be different, but it is not. I think I will just dial it in to where needs to be as far as making chlorine, and then if it continues to make excess scale, which I'm sure it will, I will ask to try a different cell. Hopefully they will agree to that. I think the cell is working, but I think the mechanics of it, electricity or whatever, is just running in a mode that produces more scale than It should.


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Given the way your chlorinator cycles, 8.5 or 9 hours will be the same. At 35% you're putting in about 1.5 ppm FC. Sorry, I'm no chemist and no help on scale.

At the risk of creating a rabbit hole, and just spitballing, in agriculture fertigation we had to be careful with calcium and sulfates. Way different from pools, of course. But I also saw two threads here with clouds spewing from the returns when the SWG was on, and I don't recall those being understood or fixed, so I suspect the problem just went away.

Sulfates can build up in pools from very long term use of dry acid. But everything I've read here says it has to be super high to cause calcium sulfate to precipitate. If I remember right, calcium sulfate precipitates are soft but look more crystalline. I haven't bumped into enough info to know much, but I've read that inside a salt cell housing, it's high pH and hostile, and not well understood.

I actually kinda like pooldv's theory of coatings inside the pipes letting go now that you're running it right. And perhaps having built up downstream of the SWC after the plastering. But that's only because I saw scale come out of a hot water heating system (downstream of a boiler) after the water had been balanced properly following an unknown period of time with poor water chemistry.

Much different water chemistries, so I shouldn't even be mentioning it, but in case it sparks an idea among the experts, maybe worth the flyer.
 
Thanks needsajet. I am pretty convinced it is coming directly from the salt water generator. I never had any issues before I introduced it, and when I stopped using it, the scale completely disappeared immediately, and then as soon as I turned it back on they immediately (within first day) came back. They appear quickly when it's running and disappear quickly when I shut it off. I'm thinking about introducing borates to see if that helps. For no other reason than just to change the water chemistry up. I am definitely open to suggestions. I keep hoping somebody has experienced this problem and has a solution. I really would like to change the cell out, just eliminate it.



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Yeh understandably frustrating! I think whatever it is, it will go away, because whatever it is, you're gradually removing it (it precipitates, then it's filtered, then it's backwashed). No way to know if that will be quick without knowing what it is.
 
Not so sure about that..... I remove it but it is reproducing just as fast.


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I think you should seriously consider borates. I get the granular boric acid from dudadiesel.com. I much prefer this route over borax since the only side effect is a slightly lowered pH as opposed to having to add several gallons of acid to rebalance the extreme pH rise.

Ideally you'd need to get your TA lower before you add the borates. Since your fill water is so high in TA, you should also be religiously using a cover to prevent evaporation.
 
So we know it's water and SWC related. To me it has to be related to your water supply, just thinking logically, without enough pool experience to know off the top of my head.

It's either that or plaster curing which will abate.

We know the SWC works in 99% of pools and 99% of water sources and all your chemistry is good. So anyway, maybe you've had your water tested to know it's OK as drinking water. Do you have that result kicking around? Or would you consider getting the county to do it, or whoever does it around there for drinking water safety? All the places I lived and farmed we could get our water done pretty cheap and they usually test for everything that affects pools and water chemistry as part of drinking water testing, or maybe county ag extention?
 
The water from the well in this neighborhood Aquapher supplies homes for probably 90 miles, and has been tested and is very good water. No iron, safe for consumption with no treatment. It has a high calcium hardness and total alkalinity, but I have them worked on to reasonable levels at present. If I remember correctly my CH was around 300 as was my TA . CH still ~300 and TA 110. As I mentioned earlier, my next-door neighbor had a pool built and has only been operation a few months, Same fill water same SWG, no issues. I have to add 16 to 20 ounces daily of MA to maintain pH 7.3 to 7.6.

Yes, this is a new replaster, a few months ago. Pool prior was still in use, plaster was just bad from neglect. When I tested the water the CYA was off the chart, and I just let it be until I could drain it. Previous owner just threw pucks in constantly, that's it. We bought the house in December, drained and replastered it in April.

Maybe the addition of borates would help? I don't know. I added some more CYA tonight, to try to bump it closer to 70 ppm. Currently I am testing and only seeing 50 to 60.

My water chemistry has been watched very closely, as in daily and I always held a slightly negative CSI.

I'm currently running my SWG from 8 AM to 5 PM, at 35%. This morning I had 4.5 ppm chlorine, and it is exactly the same tonight. It was also 100° and sunny today. I am surprised it held the same, although there were no swimmers prior to my test a hour ago.

I still think I possibly have a cell that is producing more scale than other cells, but maybe I'm wrong about that.


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Will he let you swap cells? That would answer that one.

Or buy a new one. They wear out and need replacement eventually anyway. If you're right, then you have a very good case for warranty/refund.

I trust your numbers for typical pool water chemistry. I was wondering about other water chemistry and how it might relate. Your water company would give it to you if you ask.
 
needsajet said:
I trust your numbers for typical pool water chemistry. I was wondering about other water chemistry and how it might relate. Your water company would give it to you if you ask.
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I have no water company, I am on my own well. When I bought the house the inspection company checked the water, it was safe for consumption and it showed zero iron. I guess I could send in to a lab for an analysis.


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bdavis466 said:
I think you should seriously consider borates. I get the granular boric acid from dudadiesel.com. I much prefer this route over borax since the only side effect is a slightly lowered pH as opposed to having to add several gallons of acid to rebalance the extreme pH rise.

Ideally you'd need to get your TA lower before you add the borates. Since your fill water is so high in TA, you should also be religiously using a cover to prevent evaporation.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I have no cover. My TA is down to 110, so if I add borates as you suggested then maybe it would eliminate using so much acid since it does not raise pH? I realize I will still have to add acid, but this type of borate will not raise pH if I am understanding correctly. What PPM should I shoot for?


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