Replumb and new equipment help

[Kaylee34]

Hello all! Happy New Year!

Please let me know if I’m nuts or if this is doable. Going to keep this as a running thread if that’s ok.

After reading here for hours, listening to the excellent advice and learning more than I ever wanted to know about pools, I think that in order to add a SWG to my setup, I’m going to be better off replacing all the old equipment, add the proper unions and Jandy never lube valves. -sigh- suck it up and spend $$$$

Plan is new VS pump (undecided which), Circupool RJ60 SWG and cartridge filter (undecided but probably Pentair).
Recommendations please.

No automation, solar or heater planned in the future. 99% sure 230v to the pad but will verify again or have updated if is in fact 120v.

Thinking of adding a sub panel at the pool to replace the existing on/off switch and manual timer. Thoughts?

Some excavation is coming. The existing standpipes seem to be 1 1/2” black flexible pipe. Going to dig it at the pad to see what I can find there and hope this is not the way everything is plumbed. I expect it is all like this since the pool is 20+ years old. Found out from the neighbors that the liner was replaced approximately 3 years ago.

Will need help/advice here please as far as connecting new PVC.

Main drain is functional and on its own suction line to the pad that I can tell. Digging may reveal differently.

My non-working “return jet?“ (13 feet from the skimmer) seems to be plumbed to the skimmer as the low water level suction line. Which to me is stupid because it’s not really lower than the skimmer and it’s at the shallow end. I’d like to convert this back to a return jet if possible. Can I just plug the second hole inside the bottom of the skimmer if I can convert/abandon this line?

I do not want to tear up the concrete deck at all to replumb everything. It’s a massive amount of concrete and far beyond my ability or budget to do. The skimmer and equalizer/return? are on the equipment side of the pool. I can tunnel under the deck to reach them (approx 42” inches to pool wall) if necessary. It would suck but I can do it and then easily run a new PVC pipe to the equipment pad.
Thoughts on this?

I have no idea what/why there are two return lines to the pool at the pad. The valve is broken and will not turn. I see no point in replacing it just to find out when I’m going to have to replumb everything soon anyway. Once I disconnect everything for the new equipment and have excavated some, I’ll be able to investigate further. Pad is above pool water level.
Thoughts?

Existing pad and AG piping attached.

 

[Jimrahbe]

KayLee,

While you may be a little on the nutty side, I see nothing wrong with your plan...

I'd want to know where the two return lines go for sure, before I started replacing stuff.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[IMissNimoy]

Is it possible of the returns is a dedicated pipe run for a pressure side pool cleaner?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Most older pools, with pressure side cleaners, had booster pump and smaller pipes.

KayLee... How many "returns" does your pool have?? Do you have any water features, like a waterfall??

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Kaylee34]

LOL @ JimR! Oh MOST certainly nutty. Middle aged single lady and a shovel. Yeah that’s nuts. Maybe just stubborn too (no real maybe there)

No spa, waterfall, fountain, lights, pressure cleaners or any other really cool features. It’s just a big hole in the ground, lined with vinyl and full of water.

I’ll post a marked up picture with where/what everything is.

Three working returns. Two on the side of the pool opposite the equipment pad and one on the steps. Suspect they are plumbed from the pad, under the deep end deck then down the long side.

Return at the steps has been reworked somehow maybe (will post a pic) and I believe it is now tied to the other returns. I suspect it used to be tied to the oddball return but I’m NOT digging the steps to find out.

Main drain photo attached. Also photo of return at steps. This return seems to have an extra collar?

 

[Kaylee34]

Ok. I REALLY am bad at this but here you go:

Black X’s mark the working returns. Blue circle squiggle is the skimmer location. Yellow smudge marks the oddball return. The big yellow blob is about where the equipment pad is located.



I’ve let the pump suck a little air and watched the bubble sequence out of the returns which is why I suspect those are plumbed the way I think.


There’s also this weirdo flex pipe behind the filter. Just an elbow shoved on it. No clue what this is for either. Could be for waste water, something abandoned or could be some kind of groundwater management line. I do have a fairly high water table here. I’ll be digging it to see what I can find out.

This could be fun!

 

[wireform]

What I believe you have is somewhat different. The valve at the suction side of the pump controls the skimmer/main drain to one side and the other is a suction side cleaner port. The return side is probably split between the three returns in the pool. In all cases by turning off one side of the valve completely and following what's happening in the pool will be your tell tale answer. Do that for the returns and for the suction side and see what changes from one direction to the other by completely shutting one of the two off. More than likely the black pvc flex is what's used throughout the pool plumbing all the way up to the sides of the pool. Those get brittle with age sometimes so be careful. The pipe behind the filter may be just that, a waste pipe for when you pump to waste but I can't know what you have as we need better pictures in daylight. The filter may be some sort of Hayward DE product. From the little I can see there may be a bump handle. Need better pictures.

 

[Kaylee34]

Thanks wireform.

That’s exactly what I thought too. A suction side cleaner. Yes it’s an ancient Hayward DE filter.

What I know for sure: No holes in the sides of the skimmer. The hole closest to the pool is plumbed to the pump. The second hole in the bottom of the skimmer is open and has no suction. Turning the suction side valve to any position does not change this. Pushing air through the oddball port sends air to the skimmer. Nowhere else I could see. Pushing air down the second skimmer hole sends air to the oddball port. So they ARE connected which would seem to support a suction side cleaner. ???

What doesn’t make sense with this: PO left a manual vac and round skimmer plate. Old and new slip fitting vac head and hoses. Adjusting suction side valve does nothing to “activate” the port or second skimmer hole. Distance from the skimmer and equipment pad. 13 ft to the skimmer and probably 30+ feet to the pad. Seems weird ??? Oddball port is 1 1/2” female threaded EXACTLY like a return.

 

[Kaylee34]

Pressure side plumbing:

Return under the ladder, return at the left side shallow end corner, return on right hand side 3rd step. If I let the pump pull some air, the returns will bubble in that order. Good flow from all three returns.

Oddball is located in the right side exactly below the safety rope ring where the thermometer is floating.



Much unknown about the pressure side. The valve is in the same position as it was when I took possession. It’s very stiff, extremely difficult to turn and the stem is cracked so it is leaking. I’m more than happy to go crank on it but if I wring the handle completely off, I’ll have a mess on my hands.

Possibly controls the oddball for a pressure side cleaner but that makes zero sense to me either.

Pressure side


Suction side

 

[Jimrahbe]

Kaylee,

I have never seen valves like you have, so have no idea how they work, but it appears to me that they are both set to allow water in from both pipes at the same time.

I had assumed that one side was off and the other side on, but looking at the labels, I don't think that is true.

If both pipes are open, and they are as fragile as say, I would just leave them alone until you start your upgrades.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Kaylee34]

You know, sitting here looking at it, I could just go undo all those worm drive clamps on the pressure side, get the valve out of the way and have the standpipes open.

Then I could shove air down there with my shop vac and see what’s what. Think that would hurt anything? I don’t want to break something underground.

 

[Jimrahbe]

KayLee,

Assuming your pool won't be used until after you have upgraded the pad, I can't see where removing the old valves would hurt anything.

Do you normally close your pool in the winter in Virginia? I'm talking about doing all the stuff people in the North do to prevent damage to the plumbing, skimmers, etc.

I am in Texas and know nothing about closing a pool.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Kaylee34]

Thanks Jim. I think you’re right that the valves let water in from both pipes at the same time.

The suction side seems happy where it is. Skimmer works ok. Suction side pressure is terrible IMO no matter where I adjust that valve. I stuck a vacuum gauge on the pump and I’m only getting about 4 in hg.

But happy enough with it for now and there may not be much to do about it anyway.

The pipes themselves seem fairly solid and in decent shape but I’m going to be very careful digging. And well, if I snap the handles off the valves, I snap them off. What’s the worst can happen. Shut the pump down for a day or two and I need a new valve that I already need anyway.

 

[Kaylee34]

Truth be told Jim, I doubt the pool will get much use period. I’d just as soon bring in a backhoe and have some fun with that. But it came with the house and unless something catastrophic happens I’m going to take care of it and keep the backhoe on standby. I really have no desire for a pool so easy maintaining, cheap running and an eye toward an asset when I sell the house is my goal. Hence the upgrades. I’m completely sold on trouble free pool care, SWG and variable speed pumps.

My existing pump is 12 years old and single speed. The filter is over 25 years old.

This is my first experience with a pool and I’ve had this one about 2 months. One of the very first things I did was find TFP and start reading. Love this place!

I’m on the coast in Virginia Beach so it doesn’t freeze here. My understanding from the neighbors is that the prior owner “closed” the pool. There’s a giant tarp and an unopened box of some kind of bags that I assume to be air bags in the pool shed. By “closed” I believe they just covered it for the winter and pumped rainwater off as needed. There’s a small pump that looks to be for that purpose.

When I bought the house, the pool inspector couldn’t tell me much beyond the equipment being old but running, the liner was new, everything looked great with no leaks anywhere and the owner kept the pool open year round. So some conflicting information.

I’ve got the pool open now. Monitoring chemicals, pump running approximately 10 hours a day in 2 stages overnight. One in late evening and one during the wee hours to keep water flowing in case it does get cold. I won’t cover it due to the dog. I’ll probably get a safety cover for next year.

That’s the extent of my pool closing knowledge. It’s 70 degrees out and raining today. Been that way all weekend. Next week’s forecast is mid to low 30s over night to 40s-50s during the day. Typical winter here. Up/down. I see no need to winterize anything.

 

[wireform]

Thanks wireform.

That’s exactly what I thought too. A suction side cleaner. Yes it’s an ancient Hayward DE filter.

What I know for sure: No holes in the sides of the skimmer. The hole closest to the pool is plumbed to the pump. The second hole in the bottom of the skimmer is open and has no suction. Turning the suction side valve to any position does not change this. Pushing air through the oddball port sends air to the skimmer. Nowhere else I could see. Pushing air down the second skimmer hole sends air to the oddball port. So they ARE connected which would seem to support a suction side cleaner. ???

What doesn’t make sense with this: PO left a manual vac and round skimmer plate. Old and new slip fitting vac head and hoses. Adjusting suction side valve does nothing to “activate” the port or second skimmer hole. Distance from the skimmer and equipment pad. 13 ft to the skimmer and probably 30+ feet to the pad. Seems weird ??? Oddball port is 1 1/2” female threaded EXACTLY like a return.
View attachment 386539

As Jimrahbe said it, those valves are strange and have never seen. Your testing you described is inconclusive cuz you really don't know what positions are off,on,both or nothing. I still think more testing needs to be done to figure it out. Replace the suction and pressure side valves with Jandy never lube valves and go from there. I see you have two injection ports by the filter, one on the inbound 90° from the pump and one on the return side from filter. You need to investigate those also maybe it was/chlorine and or MA. The valve going into the ground 180° from the pump side is the waste line which works when the return valve gets closed you would open that to pump to waste but also to clean the spent DE .

 

[Kaylee34]

Thanks wireform. I agree more testing is in order. Just a matter of exactly how to test without damaging anything underground. I confess that I’m rather uneasy about that. I’m not afraid to plumb anything but if I bust something under the deck and have to tear up a bunch of concrete, I’m filling the pool in.

The injection ports were for a chlorine tab feeder. That is known for sure.

 

[Kaylee34]

Google image search on the valves seems to come up with Hayward 4 way ball valve part # SP0735

SP0735 | Ball Valve 4-Way ABS

Ball Valve 4-Way ABS

www.getpoolparts.com

I can play with the suction side since that one isn’t broken. Looks like control can go primarily to one side or the other with throttling capabilities and a positive off for either direction. I’ll see what I can do and report back.

Pressure side may have to wait but if I can turn it without breaking it completely I will.

 

[wireform]

If you're just pushing air through the lines you can possibly hurt anything. I suggest you have the new valves before you start to tinker. I would also plan on moving the filter away from such close proximity to the pump. It should never have been hooked up so close with a 90° straight out of the pump.

 

[Kaylee34]

Thanks wireform.
I’ll have the Jandy valves, pipe and fittings in hand before I mess with the pressure side. I just checked and that thing isn’t moving without breaking it completely.

If you’re sure it won’t hurt anything, when I pull the old valve off, I’ll shove the shop vac down each pipe and blow them out with air. Bubbles will tell what’s what.

Get two 3 way Jandy diverter valves for the current setup? Anything else in that department for future planning?

Noted with the pump/filter connection. I’ve got plenty of room so installing the new pump/filter/SWG assembly for optimal positions will be no problem.

 

[Kaylee34]

Testing:
Suction port 1 is the main drain. Port 2 is the skimmer. No question.

Suction valve turned to port 1 at 100% is the main drain and 0% to skimmer. Yes I jumped in and checked it. Sucks in small debris like no tomorrow. No suction at skimmer at all.

Suction valve turned to port 2 at 100% is the skimmer. Nada at the main drain. Fantastic suction at the bottom skimmer pipe closest to the pool. No appreciable suction at the other pipe in the bottom of the skimmer. Things do “fall” down there but don’t get sucked down. Used a piece of brick to block off each hole in turn. The one hole did nothing. Blocked the hole to the pump and immediately starved it of water. No diverter flapper thing in the skimmer.

Pressure valve:
Port 2 is the returns. Port 1 ???

currently set at 50/50. Great flow on all 3 returns. Carefully and slowly turned to 100% port 2. Possibly slightly less flow to return at the steps. Difficult to say for sure. Other 2 still had strong flow. Unable to turn to port 1 without breaking it off so didn’t try. Barely got it back to 50/50 and jury rigged to slow the spray to a slow drip. Not giving any real credence to this test since I know the valve is jacked up.

Oddball return:
No outward water flow at any time. Tested with small debris right at the hole. Wide open and with a 3/8” eyeball screwed in. 100% convinced it is not a functioning return line. It should do something if it was.

Very minimal suction at the oddball with skimmer at 100%. As in barely. You can’t feel it. Released some fine debris below the hole and they did suck in slowly and drift up past the port.

No suction there at all with main drain switched to 100%. All debris drifted up past.

Shoved the shop vac back in the oddball return and blasted it with air. Blew the lid off the skimmer. Air coming out the non-suction hole in the bottom of the skimmer. Reversed it. Air coming out the oddball and nowhere else. They are obviously plumbed together.

The only thing I didn’t try, and just thought of, was blocking off the weir door to see what that would do. But I don’t see how that would make a difference either. Closing the weir isn’t going to magically make the pump pull water through the other skimmer hole. Nor is it going to make water come up through one hole to the same level as the hole it has to go down.

So if the oddball is a vacuum port, it doesn’t and won’t work worth 5 cents that I can figure. Don’t see how it can function as a low water level intake either.

I wonder if something got hooked up wonky when the new liner was put in. ???

Dang it. Now I’m going to have to go shut the weir door and see what happens.