Replacing solar pool heater panels

BoneDr210

Gold Supporter
Aug 15, 2024
47
Carlsbad, CA
Pool Size
14000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
New to TFP and loving the learning! Recently bought a place with a pool. There is the Pentair Compool Lx220 solar controller with some solar panels on the roof. The solar panels leak really bad to the point that they aren't usable. I'm planning on replacing them. One person I got a quote from asked if I wanted to keep the old panels and put the new ones on top or remove the old panels. Felt kinda silly to leave the old panels on the roof. But he explained that the old panels would be completely disconnected (no leaks) but can be used to protect the cement tiles of my roof. Also it would lead to less noise when water runs through the new panels as they would be sitting on top of the old ones and absorb some of the vibrations/noise. He said he's happy to take the old ones out if I prefer.

Does that seem legit?

Another semi-related question. I have a calimar 1.5 hp VSP without any automation. I have it running at low RPM through the day and higher speeds overnight when electricity is cheaper. When the solar controller sends water up to the panel during the day when the sun is out, will the solar controller "talk" to the pump to increase RPM to support pushing the water up 2 stories to the roof where the solar panels are? Or do I have to manually increase the pump speed?

Thank you for your help!
 
I would remove the old solar panels. I don't want more weight on the roof and I think having two layers of solar panels will complicate any roof repairs.

Your Calimar pump will not communicate with your solar controller. Any speed adjustments need to be done manually.

For your solar panels to heat effectively you will need to run your pump at the speed the panels need.

@Dirk is in your area and may have thoughts.

 
I would remove the old solar panels. I don't want more weight on the roof and I think having two layers of solar panels will complicate any roof repairs.

Your Calimar pump will not communicate with your solar controller. Any speed adjustments need to be done manually.

For your solar panels to heat effectively you will need to run your pump at the speed the panels need.

@Dirk is in your area and may have thoughts.

Thanks for the link. In looking at the picture on the wiki page, the 3-way valve is before the gas heater. In my set up, the 3-way valve that directs water to solar heater vs return line is AFTER the gas heater. Is that OK? Even with the gas heater off, the water seems to be going through it just fine.
 
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Thanks for the link. In looking at the picture on the wiki page, the 3-way valve is before the gas heater. In my set up, the 3-way valve that directs water to solar heater vs return line is AFTER the gas heater. Is that OK? Even with the gas heater off, the water seems to be going through it just fine.
It is not optimal and can be energy inefficient.

If both the gas heater and solar heater is on you will lose the benefit of the solar heater heating the water before the gas heater decides if it needs to further heat the water.
 
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My solar is plumbed before my gas heater, and Allen explains why that's right.

I can barely hear my pump running through an exterior wall at one end of my house. I cannot hear "the vibrations/noise" of water running through my solar panels. I can hear the system at startup, purging air out of the panels. I couldn't say offhand if I'm hearing the air bubbling through the pad plumbing, or the air bubbling out into the pool, or the air through the panels, or what. Probably some of each? It lasts for less than a minute. And I hear all that because the pool, pad and panels are closest to my master bedroom, where I am most often when my heater first fires up. I doubt I would hear any of that from elsewhere in the house. But it's never woken me. Frankly, when I'm awake and still at that end of the house, it's fine knowing when the panels are first engaged. For reference, I have stucco walls and a concrete tile roof.

Way more important than any sound dampening, is the load of two sets of panels on the roof, and how they are connected, and how they move. Usually roofs are overbuilt to support weight, so a second set of panels might be OK, but weight is weight and less is better. But there are other forces at work beside gravity. Your array should be engineered to withstand wind loads, too, including how it is connected to your roof. How will two sets of panels affect wind load, and if the new panels are properly engineered for that, how will them laying on another set of panels affect their resistance to wind load? How will the second set affect the wind load characteristics of the first set, and vice versa. And even if the second set is properly attached to the second, was the first set ever properly attached? Or properly installed?

All of which is to say, remove the first set. Just sounds like the guy is being lazy, and unless he discussed the other issues and forces at work, he's just making stuff up. It could actually be a red flag. Lots of installers out there, not all of them know what they're doing. Can you get other estimates? Talk to other installers? See what they say about laying one set on another! In my area, I can't even lay a second set of asphalt roof tiles on the previous set. We used to be able to layer 'em three high!

And way more important than all of that, is the attachment. It's the attachments and penetrations that really matter. How strong are they? Will they support the loads (weight and wind)? Will they be water-tight for the next 20 years? Will the attachments allow expansion and contraction of the panels? Because they move around during the day and night. It's why I chose Heliocol panels. They have a great mounting system, which handles weight, wind, expansion and contraction in a simple and elegant way. My attachments don't even penetrate my roof's underlayment, so they cannot cause a roof leak. A suppose a hurricane could rip them off, but they've withstood ~30MPH winds so far. Works for me. The penetrations present the biggest liability risk to the installer. If he gets them wrong, not only will he be back to fix them, but he'll be liable for any water damage a leak would cause (unless he presents you with a contract that negates that, which you should be aware of). It could be that your installer is looking for an out. If you authorize the new set to attach to the first, then the installer could claim foul if your roof starts leaking. He could claim he didn't do the penetrations, and so he's not liable for them. And you'd be giving him permission to assert that!

You should have a conversation with him about all this. Does he offer a warranty? What does it cover? Will it cover the new penetrations, and just as importantly, will it cover the previous penetrations? Will that old set of penetrations be used? Left as is? Removed? Etc.

Your panels will have an optimal flow rate to generate the most heat for the least pump energy. That probably won't be your low speed, though you might get sufficient heating at low speed. @mas985 knows more about that than I do. I have a variable speed pump, and my controller can ramp it up and down for optimal flow, heating and efficiency. If a variable speed pump is in your future, now's the time. You would, of course, make sure the new pump is compatible with your controller. Given your electric bill issues, a variable pump could ROI pretty quickly.

I installed a FlowVis flow meter to fine-tune my flow rate through my panels. The rate is the exact spec the manufacturer recommends. The FlowVis doubles as a check valve, so if your installation requires a new check, consider a FlowVis, especially if you decide to go VS pump. You don't need a FlowVis to get your system going, there are other less accurate ways to get in the ballpark of optimal flow, but I like knowing I have my system perfectly tuned.

If PV solar is a possibility (I have both), then consider its future placement. I put my pool panels in a slightly less optimal location on my roof because I saved the best spot for my PV panels. Think that through. Now's the time. Maybe your new panels shouldn't even go where the old ones are now. I don't pay for electricity any more (PV paid for itself by now), so I don't pay anything to heat my pool, either. If this is your forever home, every day is a better day than the next to invest in PV solar.

And finally, I installed my panels myself and know for a fact I did a better job than any contractor would have. I saved about $7K doing it myself. I learned how best to do it from the local contractor that sold me the panels at an incredible price, and this website. They have some great tutorials along with illustrations that really helped me understand solar heating. I'm very handy, so there is some skill involved, but it is possible to DIY.

 
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Wow thank you for the incredible amount of info @Dirk.

I'll definitely have him remove the old panels if I end up having to replace them (see below) - agree with the weight issues and understand that the sound issue isn't really an issue. I've gotten 2 quotes but will get more. I liked this guy and he has done work for a friend of mine. I didn't know all the questions to ask re penetrations and liability - so I'll do that now.

Looks like I have some reading to do/videos to watch to understand solar heaters better. We do have PV solar at the house. They are on a PPA and at some point I need to figure out when is it reasonable to buy the contract out vs just continue the PPA. It's on year 10 of the PPA for the PV solar, out of 20. But that's a different topic

I had a very helpful conversation with h2otsun - based on google earth images, they actually might be h2otsun panels! He recommended having the installer for their panels in my area come check it out to see if the old ones just need to be repaired. So that's happening Friday. Might be much cheaper to just fix them up! May be another red flag for the previous installer, who recommended just replacing them right off the bat. But perhaps he didn't have a ton of experience with the solar heater I have

If both the gas heater and solar heater is on you will lose the benefit of the solar heater heating the water before the gas heater decides if it needs to further heat the water.
I'll look into getting this fixed when they repair or replace my panels.

If a variable speed pump is in your future, now's the time. You would, of course, make sure the new pump is compatible with your controller. Given your electric bill issues, a variable pump could ROI pretty quickly.
The Calimar pump I have is variable speed but as @ajw22 mentioned, it doesn't speak to the solar controller. Once we have the system up on running on fronts, automation is next on the to-do list which may allow me to have the controller ramp up pump speed. For now, I'll just have it the pump speed at a sufficient rate to push the water up to the roof.
 
automation is next on the to-do list which may allow me to have the controller ramp up pump speed.
Not exactly sure what that meant. My solar heater controller is built-in to my pool automation controller. I don't have one for pool and one for solar. If you meant you're planning on adding full pool automation, then get one that has the solar controller built in, then ditch the current one. Generally, the pump and automation controller need to be of the same brand for all the bells and whistles to work. These guys all sell proprietary systems, because they don't want you mixing and matching brands, they want to lock you up. So plan accordingly. If you have a SWG, or plan to have one, that is the other pool automation component that plays best with its brand-mates. Filters don't matter. Heaters work either way. You might get some extra status feedback with a same-brand heater, but most automation systems and heaters can work together via a secondary control mechanism they all have. I don't know much about that, I inherited a gas heater when I bought house and pool, but have never run it. Too expensive. I rely on my solar and just suck it up in the fringe months.
 
If you meant you're planning on adding full pool automation, then get one that has the solar controller built in, then ditch the current one. Generally, the pump and automation controller need to be of the same brand for all the bells and whistles to work.
That's what I meant - planning on adding full pool automation at some point and will make sure the solar controller is built in. Probably will have to upgrade to the same brand pump at some point so it all works together seamlessly.
 
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Before you buy the first new component, study up. Pentair, for example, sells bundles that give you a break on the total cost over buying things separately. Also, Pentair example again, if you buy three of the qualified components on the same invoice, Pentair will extend the warranty of all three from one year to three years. I don't know that you need more than one of anything, but in case you do, just be aware of the brand's policies and deals before you buy.
 
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So I had a couple people come and gives quotes.

Turns out that the current panels I have on the roof are EPDM by a company that isn't in business anymore. A contractor who uses H2ot sun powerstrip panels said that EPDM panels aren't great as they leak "black stuff" and the pool chemicals may break down the synthetic rubber, are hard to repair and should be replaced. He made the case for his panels - no roof penetration, tube design reduces wind uplift, long warranty, etc.

Another person uses aquatherm, does penetrate roof and the plywood under but he said he's very mindful of sealing it well and takes liability for roof leaks if they occur. 3 year warranty on labor/10 year warranty on panels. He said he prefers aquatherm because warranty work is a lot easier through his supplier than with heliocol from his personal experience as heliocol warranty work has to go through the US supplier for heliocol.

Haven't gotten heliocol quote yet but plan to.

Question I have now - are EPDM panels really that bad as the first guy suggested? Should I look into having someone repair it? I know Suntrek panels that are sold currently are EPDM and they are still in business. If they were that awful, wouldn't they not be in business? I have 4 little kids who will be using the pool, so of course I'm a bit weary of rubber particles possibly making their way in the water.
 

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How old are the panels? And from where are they leaking? 20 years would be really good for a panel. Most warranties are 10 or 12 years. If your panels are between those ages, they're answering your question for you. They're done. If they're just a few years old, with just a couple leaks, or it's just the panel manifold connections that are leaking, that would be worth repairing. If they're not old, but leaking like a sieve, you'll never be able to rely on them. They'll just continue to spring new leaks and that will be your constant chore: fixing them or paying to have them fixed.

Is EPDM a brand or a type? Not familiar with that acronym. I wouldn't rely 100% on the word of one guy, trying to sell you new panels, about the quality of a brand he doesn't sell. But that doesn't mean he's wrong, either. Sniff around on the 'net for others that might know, other forums, reviewers, etc. Maybe ask Hot2Sun?

Would someone still selling panels, that someone else claims are bad, mean the panels aren't bad? No. The choice of which product a vendor might sell has as much to do with profit margins as anything else. And these days, profit rules over quality. You know that. So no, that's not a reliable indicator either.

And I'm just some random guy on the internet, so who's to say I'm a reliable source of info!??

Best you can do is gather opinions from multiple sources: multiple people here, people on other forums, reviewers, installers, etc, then make your best guess. Just as you are doing. That's how I do. I keep asking until a consensus forms, or you stumble on an information source that is undeniably reliable. If you hear five people say EPDM is junk, and only one says they're OK, and you get the opposite for Helicol (or some other well-known brand), then you have your answer. So here's an up-vote for Helicol. I can vouch for them (in my climate). That's one!
 
Howdy Neighbor!
I used "swimjoy" panels, which is a private label helicol, from solar pool supply in lakeside. Solar pool supply is a diy supplier but as I recall they have a sister company that does installed systems (and is a helicol vendor). I'd reach out to them for the referral to the sister company and a quote. I've been very happy with my system and thier support.
 
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Howdy Neighbor!
I used "swimjoy" panels, which is a private label helicol, from solar pool supply in lakeside. Solar pool supply is a diy supplier but as I recall they have a sister company that does installed systems (and is a helicol vendor). I'd reach out to them for the referral to the sister company and a quote. I've been very happy with my system and thier support.
Did you ever figure out if the Swimjoy panels are Heliocol in disguise, or a some-amount lower quality panel that has Heliocol as a parent company? You can't even trust the same name any more. Like the same brand and model of something sold at big-box stores is not of the same quality as the same thing sold at a plumbing supply. Very frustrating to find reliable quality of anything any more. BTW, whatever happened to 5¢ candy bars?

Grumpy Old Man Stock Illustration - Download Image Now - Grumpy Old Man,  Old, Cartoon
(I'm so old I'm repeating myself, this is the same rant over and over!)
 
How old are the panels? And from where are they leaking?
They are original to the house, built in 2004. So >20 years. Found plans for the swimming pool in the garage and there is mention of the solar pool heater system with the pentair controller. No brands mentioned in the plans. If I had to venture a guess, I’d say they are original and haven’t been changed. But of course, it’s possible they got replaced.

When I went to the roof with one of the installers, he found a couple of headers were cracked. We didn’t turn the system on. But he said there are probably a few tubes leaking on top of that. And given it’s EPDM he wouldn’t bother fixing. He used to fix them and they just kept spring leaks that he kept chasing as you mentioned.

EPDM is a elastomer from my understanding. Rubber derivative. Suntrek still makes them as part of their “custom” panels

Appreciate the info. But I’ll talk to some more people and go with the installer that “feels right”, uses good products that you all have recommended and has good warranties.
 
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Did you ever figure out if the Swimjoy panels are Heliocol in disguise, or a some-amount lower quality panel that has Heliocol as a parent company? You can't even trust the same name any more. Like the same brand and model of something sold at big-box stores is not of the same quality as the same thing sold at a plumbing supply. Very frustrating to find reliable quality of anything any more. BTW, whatever happened to 5¢ candy bars?

View attachment 606535
(I'm so old I'm repeating myself, this is the same rant over and over!)
As I understand they are manufactured by magen eco energy/Uma solar but are a "square header" sunstar vs the round header heliocol. This does create an additional welded seem that is not present on the heliocol round header panels. All the hardware is the same, the manual is the same and they carry the same "lifetime" warranty to the original purchaser. Given sps is local to me and has been around since 2001 I was comfortable with the tradeoffs vs ~30% lower cost.
 
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So I had a couple people come and gives quotes.

Turns out that the current panels I have on the roof are EPDM by a company that isn't in business anymore. A contractor who uses H2ot sun powerstrip panels said that EPDM panels aren't great as they leak "black stuff" and the pool chemicals may break down the synthetic rubber, are hard to repair and should be replaced. He made the case for his panels - no roof penetration, tube design reduces wind uplift, long warranty, etc.
I have EPDM panels and the part about the "black stuff" is somewhat true although I don't get it very much. Only when the panels sit idle for several months. If you periodically run water through the panels, it is a non issue.

But the thing I do like about EPDM is that they are more flexible than standard panels and the wall thickness is larger. So the panels themselves are very unlikely to leak. I did have a header crack like yours so those are vulnerable to damage. But I also found them fairly easy to repair.

Question I have now - are EPDM panels really that bad as the first guy suggested? Should I look into having someone repair it?
I have had mine for almost 20 years now and given all of the issues that I have read about on this forum with other panels, I would not say EPDM is any worse. In fact, in some ways, they are better. You can walk on them without any damage and I don't think that is possible with other panels.

I know Suntrek panels that are sold currently are EPDM and they are still in business. If they were that awful, wouldn't they not be in business? I have 4 little kids who will be using the pool, so of course I'm a bit weary of rubber particles possibly making their way in the water.
I would not worry about the black goo. As I mentioned earlier, it only happens when the panels sit idle for a long period of time. Also, if you do get it, It sinks to the bottom and easily vacuumed up.
 
I installed a FlowVis flow meter to fine-tune my flow rate through my panels.
I am having it installed when the panels are being installed this weekend. What is the optimal location for the flow meter? On the supply line taking water up to the panels or on the return bring it back down?
 
The flow rate is the same on the supply and return lines so that doesn't matter.

Also, panel efficiency is not linear with flow rate. Halving the flow rate from manufactures recommendations only reduces efficiency by about 15%. So it is not that critical to get it exactly right.

I use temperature difference between the inlet and outlet as it is a better metric for efficiency since it is directly related. The higher the temperature difference, the more heat that is lost to the environment. 3-4F temperature is usually sufficient.
 
I am having it installed when the panels are being installed this weekend. What is the optimal location for the flow meter? On the supply line taking water up to the panels or on the return bring it back down?
As long as there are no special-purpose bypasses or secondary paths in your plumbing, then flow is constant in any section of your plumbing. You'll get the same reading no matter where it gets installed. But...

If the FlowVis is mounted on either pipe leading to or coming from the panels, you'll only get flow readings while solar is engaged. But if the FlowVis is mounted, say, between your pump and your filter (that's where mine is), you'll not only be able to monitor flow through your panels, but also flow through your system even when your solar heater is disengaged. I use mine to fine-tune my panels, but I also use it to monitor flow through my SWG and the flow that drives my suction-side vac.

While I trust @mas985's assertions about panel efficiency ("Also, panel efficiency is not linear with flow rate. Halving the flow rate from manufactures recommendations only reduces efficiency by about 15%. So it is not that critical to get it exactly right.), I still stand by mine, at least in my use case:

My panels work great in summer, but have never given me the "fringe-season" bump I was hoping for (warmer water sooner/later in Spring/Fall). They definitely help, but I don't get extra months of swim season on either side of summer. There is a threshold of temp when it comes to me wanting to get in or not. For me, that 15% Mark refers to can make a difference. So I like the idea that my setup, with the FlowVis, assures me I'm getting all I can out of my panels.

Where Mark's MO comes into play is cost efficiency. By running your panels, say, with 15% less heating efficiency, you can reduce your pump RPMs quite a bit, and increase the electrical cost efficiency. But I have PV solar, and they have now paid for themselves, so I don't actually pay for electricity anymore, including the electricity required to pump water up onto my roof. So that extra 15% of heat doesn't cost me anything. And that 15% has now also paid for my FlowVis! So, for me, the Vis was a good investment, and worth using. If you're in a scenario where reducing your electricity expenses is more important than an extra degree or two in your pool, then you might not want to eek out every last therm you can from your panels.

The ultimate problem is, it's every difficult to test all this. You could probably monitor your pool temperature, and your energy usage (via the Smart Meter you probably have on your electric meter), to figure out how much it costs on any given day to heat your pool. But whatever bump in pool temp you get that day is not solely created by your panels. Sun exposure, cloud cover, wind, the air temp of the previous night, the pool and air temps of the previous day, all impact your current pool temperature. And all those variables are going to be slightly different (or drastically different) from one day to the next. So you could heat your pool with one pump RPM one day, and then a lower RPM the next, and observe the difference in pool temp, but you'll never know for sure that the RPM differential explains the pool temp differential. The test itself would impact the test results! I'm nit-picking, but you get it.

You might try a week, or month, or even a season, at one RPM setting, and then another period of time with a different RPM setting. Did you save any money? Did you notice the pool was more or less comfortable? Etc. There is an exact science involved, but how you perceive the effects of that science is not exact.
 
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Where Mark's MO comes into play is cost efficiency. By running your panels, say, with 15% less heating efficiency, you can reduce your pump RPMs quite a bit, and increase the electrical cost efficiency.
Not entirely. Higher RPM over the same run time can reduce the life of the motor bearings.

But that was not my main point. My main point is that precise flow rate is not that critical to heat gain. You would never notice a 10% swing in flow rate because the change in efficiency is so small. So trying to nail the manufactures spec is pointless IMHO. As long as you are close, you can expect those published efficiencies. Also, it is important to understand that those specs are based upon a single set of inlet temperatures and environmental conditions. As you pointed out, these do change and that is why I think it is more important to measure temperature difference than flow rate.

Also, if you are trying to squeeze out as much heat as possible, you should be running a maximum flow rate specs. Efficiency increases even past the manufactures recommendations. It is a continuous curve. It just doesn't change as much.
 
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