Replace GFCI outlet with GFCI Breaker - Is this ok?

[KDpoolguy]

Follow up question for all of you smart folks: are you aware of any cool "smart bulbs" to replace to existing halogen? I currently have a smart things hub which I am using for everything else. Would be great if there was a bulb out there that would let you change colors, dim levels, etc from the smart things app!

EDIT:
Also, wow this experience has me going down the rabbit hole! Now I am concerned that my pool is not properly bonded as it was built in 1954. I am having an electrician come out on Friday to check everything out.

It’s good to be informed Kev, and I apologize to the post as my last post here I didn’t read how far Along you’d got and my input was too holistic to be helpful.
I’ve revised my opinion on bulb swaps. If you need to swap a bulb for any reason, be that leaking fixture or just to put in a neato-fancy color change LED, I strongly advise pulling an entirely new fixture instead of s new bulb and gasket approach. The risk of (& high likelihood of) subsequent leaks is a major reason why most pool maintenance pros don’t swap bulbs anymore, and I’ve personally wasted hundreds instead of just pulling a new fixture.

There aren’t any current pool-rated LED bulbs that offer a WiFi smart connection (zigbee or other) approved for a pool. Best to have a rated bulb and have the switch take on that ‘smart’ work. You can conceivably use the suite of smart bulbs available, but I’d advise against them for pool duty, as the issues of functioning below water and concrete likely won’t get the functionality you’d hope for along with untested light dynamics.

As far as bonding, there are different levels of equipotential bonding. The NEC code keeps evolving to what needs to have bonding to now include the water itself, not just electrically conductive items—and having managed an older public pool (1970), they had to invest to meet each new code for insurance reasons. In my experience it wasn’t too expensive to meet the requirements for general safety. Generally, just like a house panel ground rod is attached to the steel rebar in the foundation, so is the initial bonding point for a pool. If your pool didn’t have that, it’s unlikely you’ll need that to begin a bonding from there, but if you ever resurface the pool might be an opportunity to address it as a firmer place to plant it. Concrete in general holds moisture best, compared to say dirt, so that’s usually why they recommend bringing it in from there and the attached metal rebar. Basically everything related to your pool that Might be electrically conductive must be daisy-chained bonded together using a bare copper wire. From what I can think, a retro kit may just have a bonding wire go through existing conduit to a light niche(s) and begin bond there and pull it back to your equipment pad.

In my experience with a much older pool there are more dangerous electrical items to inspect. Things like older electrical jbox locations (some right on swim deck coping), or improper connections that risk danger that a good electrician can review with you.

 

[tstex]

Basic overall recap:

Never use your circuit breaker as an "on-off" switch. You can wear out the operator switch and drastically decrease the [safe[ useful life of the devise.

When you bought the house, was the pool inspected, and if so, by a qualified electrician that knows pool electronics/wiring/bonding/etc? If not, then it would be a wise decision to have someone that specializes in pool electrical issues to examine and test your set-up. good luck, tstex

 

[kevin007]

Basic overall recap:

Never use your circuit breaker as an "on-off" switch. You can wear out the operator switch and drastically decrease the [safe[ useful life of the devise.

When you bought the house, was the pool inspected, and if so, by a qualified electrician that knows pool electronics/wiring/bonding/etc? If not, then it would be a wise decision to have someone that specializes in pool electrical issues to examine and test your set-up. good luck, tstex

I had the pool and equipment inspected by a general home inspector. However, I have an electrician who specializes in pools coming out tomorrow morning for an in depth inspection. Hopefully he will approve of all the work I did last night based on the input I got here. By the way, the switch is now up and running, and working beautifully!

 

[Dirk]

Yay! And good call on the inspection.

 

[kevin007]

Disappointed. The electrician looked at my wiring on the switch and said it was ok, but said he didn't have any way of testing if the pool was bonded or not. He said the ground wire of the pool electric box was not tied into the ground wire of my main box (on the other side of the pool) so he didn't think it was bonded.

He recommended running a new ground that ties into the main ground, with 8 foot grounding rods attached every 20 feet or so. This would be costly, as it would end up being a 200 foot run at least. And he could not guarantee that he could tie into the rebar into the pool framing. So I may have to get another set of eyes on it.

Does anyone know a good electrician who specializes in pools in Orlando, FL?

 

[danpik]

Disappointed. The electrician looked at my wiring on the switch and said it was ok, but said he didn't have any way of testing if the pool was bonded or not.

He should be able to test any bonding with a continuity tester (ohm meter)

He said the ground wire of the pool electric box was not tied into the ground wire of my main box (on the other side of the pool) so he didn't think it was bonded.

The feed from the main box to the pool panel should have 4 wires in it. 2 hot leads, 1 neutral lead and 1 ground lead. (assuming a 240 volt circuit). There should be 1 neutral bar in the pool panel and one ground bar. The neutral will be isolated from the ground and not bonded to the box. (commonly referred to as a floating Neutral)

He recommended running a new ground that ties into the main ground, with 8 foot grounding rods attached every 20 feet or so. This would be costly, as it would end up being a 200 foot run at least. And he could not guarantee that he could tie into the rebar into the pool framing. So I may have to get another set of eyes on it.

None of this is needed or makes sense. If there is no ground wire between the pool box and the main then an insulated green ground wire needs to be pulled thru the conduit to make the connection. Pounding ground rods will do nothing but lighten your wallet and make someones muscles sore.

Dan

 

[Dirk]

Yes, that is disappointing. And your "second opinion" approach sounds prudent. I'm trying to absorb everything I can about bonding, and I haven't heard yet anything about ground rods tied into an electrical system's ground as part of a bonding system. I'll look forward to hearing others here weigh in on that.

As I understand it, there is testing that can be done. You can put a volt meter across different components around the pool. If the testing reveals voltage gradients, then that indicates the bonding is missing or damaged. Unfortunately, if the testing reveals no gradients, that only means you have no gradients at that point in time, not necessarily that there is a bonding system present. I would expect a pool electrician to be able to at least attempt a test. I could be wrong about that.

It did remind me of a conversation I had with an electrician at a trade show, about bonding, and it was clear from his take on it that he didn't understand bonding at all. And worse, he was attempting to convince me he did. I wish there was some sort of certification required, for pool electrical work, that a consumer could reasonably rely on to determine if their choice of electrician to work on their pool was appropriate.

Does your pool have any evidence of bonding? Do you see a thick wire (8 gauge or better, like approx 1/8" thick) running around to multiple items on your pad, physically connected to things like your heater, pumps, etc? And if there is one, do you see it running down into the ground? Mine goes into the dirt right next to the big PVC pipes leading to the pool, as if it was laid in the same trench dug for the plumbing.

If you don't see any such wire on your pad, that's a pretty good indicator that your pool isn't bonded (not a guarantee it isn't, just a red flag). Your Pentair VSF would have an obvious bonding lug on its exterior. Your booster pump should, too. Anything connected to those? If not, then certainly you're missing a bonding grid, or if you have one your pumps weren't properly connected to it. Did your electrician mention that?

Oops, I'm just re-reading your signature. 1954? I'm not sure any pools were being bonded back then.

So if you go with another guy, a few questions to ask of him first:

- Are you qualified to troubleshoot a pool's bonding grid? What is your experience with pools?

- Is there a way to test to see if a pool is properly bonded? And do you know how to perform that test?

- Is there a way to retrofit a pool's bonding grid? And do you know how to do that?

I'd want to hear some convincing answers to those questions before I hired anyone else.

There must be thousands and thousands of pools that have no bonding grid. So how worked up should someone get if their pool was built without one? And to what lengths should someone go to if they own a pool without a grid? I don't have the answers to those questions... Others here might...

 

[kevin007]

Dirk,

Yes, my equipment does have bonding wires, and they connect to something that looks like Rebar in the ground. I suppose I should dig down and see if this rebar is tied into another wire, is this correct? Theoretically, there should be a wire connecting the rebar to my pool's metal components?

The frustrating part about this is that I did some research ahead of time based on the advice of fellow members here, and tested various metal components around the pool. I used a long copper wire to connect the bonding wire from my VSF to an old pipe at the end of my pool that used to supply water when the water level got low. It showed "zero" on continuity which I believe means there is some sort of bonding. Otherwise, how could this have continuity? Next I tested some exposed metal from where a pool ladder used to be in the deep end, but this did not have continuity. The metal exposed from where the diving board used to be would cause the meter to "jump" and then fall back as if there was some sort of continuity. Maybe my $10 meter was just not not good enough for this application.

I explained this to the electrician but he said the continuity to the old pipe meant nothing and that he could do an in depth bonding test but that it requires specialized equipment and would be costly yada yada.

 

[Dirk]

I often question the prudence of giving or receiving advice about a pool's electrical system in an online forum. I probably already have done that in this thread. I'm not an electrician and don't want to send you down the wrong path. For example: "they connect to something that looks like Rebar in the ground" could mean a lot of things, good or bad. I think I know what that means, but can't be sure without being on site. Is that rebar part of your pool's rebar cage? Or just the pad's? Or is it some sort of make-shift ground rod, or is it a true copper-clad ground rod? Too many possibilities and not enough facts, I'm afraid.

Your electrician was correct, the fact that you got 0 between the pump and the pipe means nothing in terms of a bonding grid. Older houses can have their electrical service's ground system tied into the iron pipes. I believe this was somewhat common years ago. So your continuity between pump and old plumbing could have been that, and had nothing to do with a bonding grid. Really the only thing your rudimentary testing proved is that you have some bonding issues to be explored.

Your electrician's response of "it requires specialized equipment and would be costly" could mean anywhere from an honest assessment to "I don't really want that job."

I suppose it would come down to what you explained to him in terms of what you wanted him to do. Did he come out with the impression that he was checking up on your smart switch installation, or did you explain that you wanted a thorough safety check of your pool's electrical and bonding systems? If the former, then he did what you hired him to do. If the latter, then he arrived unprepared for that job (either in equipment or experience or both) and probably shouldn't have accepted the job in the first place.

I'm just brainstorming with you. Really just coming up with more questions than answers...

Have you tried calling local pool stores or local pool maintenance companies or local pool builders to ask them for a referral to a qualified, licensed electrician, one that specializes in pool electrical?

 

[kevin007]

I see your point about endless possibilities. This is why I hired an electrician! Unfortunately, his explanations were not clear to me and I believe he may have been trying to sell me something I do not need. I made the appointment with the office assistant and told her my primary interest was ensuring the pool was bonded. When the electricians showed up, they clearly had not been informed of this so there was definitely a miscommunication within the company.

I like your idea about calling a pool company to ask for a referral. I may go down that route with my next inspection.

 

[Dirk]

Well, just to continue to play devil's advocate... we don't know that driving 10 ground rods around a pool isn't the proper retrofit for a pool that was never bonded. It may be. Or not. The red flag in the electrician's solution as you described it was connecting that to the panels' grounds. We've discussed in this forum, in other threads, about whether a bonding grid is supposed to be connected to the electrical system's ground (here). The conclusion seems to be: there is no building code to support that, nor is there a building code to prevent it. My only point is that your electrician's recommendation to establish 10 ground rods around the pool and connect them to your panels' grounds is not consistent with what I've learned here about bonding. Rather, the wire circles the pool, in the dirt, and is attached to the pool's and deck's rebar, in multiple places, along with any other metal object in the pool or within 5' of it. And then it is run back to the pad where it is connected to various pieces of equipment there as well (pumps, heaters, equipment housings, etc). Connecting to ground sometimes occurs because one of those pieces of equipment might also be grounded, but grounding the bonding grid is not required. So something's askew with his recommendation, or perhaps your interpretation of it.

If and when you identify another electrician, you might have a conversation with him directly, before he arrives for your next inspection, so your expectations and his abilities and objectives are crystal clear. I already offered a few possible questions to ask. Using terms such as "safety inspection" and "certified safe" and the like might help get to the heart of the matter.

 

[kevin007]

Dirk,

Once I get the electricians estimate and plan for bonding, I will share it so we can further discuss. But he was quite clear in that he believed the ground wire needed to connect back to the main panel's ground.

I called a pool construction company, who referred me to another company, who finally referred me to an electrician who sounds like he knows what he is talking about. He only does pools (mostly new builds). He explained it just like you - that a #8 wire needs to encircle the pool and ideally connect to the rebar in the frame, and that it needs to be tied into the equipment. He also said some folks are pushing for the pumps to be on GFCI breakers but he did not have a strong opinion on that either way. To me, it seems better to be safe than sorry with ground faults. Knock on wood for better luck this time around!

 

[kevin007]

I read through the thread you linked me to until my head started hurting

I have such a rudimentary understanding of electricity. I'd like to better understand the basics.

 

[Dirk]

OK, progress! I like the sound of this new guy. (You know, 'cause he agreed with me!! )

One of the things I learned here: grounding is not bonding, and bonding is not grounding. Two different things, serving two different purposes, achieved in two different ways. The confusion occurs because they both use similar materials, and kinda look like each other to the untrained eye.

If the original electrician was recommending a way to establish a proper ground between your panels, then that's fine. That's not bonding, though. Didn't you say he noticed that one of your panels was not properly grounded? So that has to be addressed along with the bonding. Perhaps he was attempting to create some sort of ad hoc bonding system while running the ground wire? Who knows.

If I remember correctly, Pentair won't honor the warranty of their pumps unless they are wired to a special breaker. This guy. You can confirm that directly with Pentair (it's probably in the owner manual for your pump). Not sure what to advise about your booster: if that has to have its own GFCI breaker, or if the two can share one. If the latter was possible, that would have a side benefit. If your main pump kicked off for some reason, the booster should go, too. You're not supposed to run a booster pump with the main pump off. That might be something else to address while you've got the electrician. Before I got rid of my booster, it was wired such that it and my two-speed pump had their own timers, but the booster could not receive any power unless the main pump was receiving power. Something like that. But with my new VS, there's only one pump, and I have that on a dedicated Pentair breaker.

How are you controlling the pump timing?

I'm gunna harp a bit, in case you skipped a step. My pool contractors called my equipment installer an "electrician" but he was not licensed as such. I have later found several instances where he missed stuff (he didn't bond everything correctly, for example). This is why I'm sensitive to checking qualifications on these guys. I'm recommending the next guy that comes be a licensed electrician, in good standing with the state, carrying a proper bond and liability insurance. I skipped that step and have many regrets because of it. When you wrote "He also said some folks are pushing for the pumps to be on GFCI breakers..." that threw up a flag. According to that Pentair page I just shared with you, that breaker "Meets 2008 to current NEC standards for pool pumps." Does that mean it's a code requirement? Or just a guideline? So is your new guy informed about that? Or winging it?

Now my guy could legitimately work my electrical, because he was the employer of a properly licensed pool contractor. That license covers pool electrical, so technically that was legit, and any liability would fall to the contractor. If your guy has a similar standing, then he's legit only if you're working with the overseeing pool contractor, otherwise, he's just some guy off the street with no liability coverage, and he'd be working in an unlicensed capacity.

I'm just tossin' up the clays, you can blast 'em out of the sky or not...

 

[kevin007]

So the first electrician recommended I replace the entire pool panel, because the breaker for the pump was running hot and he said the panel was on the fritz. The new guy tested the pull and determined that when both pumps run, it's drawing well over 20 amps, and the breaker is only rated for 20 amps. The pumps need to be on separate amps! So the first guy is getting more and more "strikes" in my book. In fact, he is OUT at this point.

The new guy is licensed as an electrician in the state of Florida. He said it's code for pumps on NEW pools to be GFCI protected at the breaker. He also said he's not 100% convinced that they are much safer. Regardless, I told him to go ahead and do it. So now the pumps will be on two separate breakers which presents an issue that you pointed out. But it's not really a safety issue, right? More of a functional issue?

The new guy also tested for bonding using a multimeter. He verified the pool light is acting as a bond. He also dug down into the rebar and found a wire, presumably tied into the pool's rebar. So I feel better about the pool/equipment being bonded now.

Another question for you Dirk. Earlier you recommended replacing the entire light fixture rather than swapping out the bulb. Do you have any recommended products? I am looking for and LED with high lumens since my pool is large and there is only one light. "Nice to have" would be multi colors. "Really nice to have" would be dimmable.

 

[Dirk]

Definitely sounds like you have a better guy. Good job. Thanks for clarifying about the code for the GFCI (and it was good to hear your new guy was up on the code). I think you made the right call about that. Did you have to buy two GFCI breakers, one for each pump?

I'm very surprised you found bonding to the rebar. Was the electrician? Was that 1954 rebar? Any evidence it was added at a later date? Did he explain his testing methods enough for you to now feel comfortable about the bonding? That'd certainly be good news, for your safety and your budget.

The booster issue I mentioned wasn't one of human safety, rather pump safety (or plumbing?). I'm not exactly sure why, only that my pool was wired such to safeguard against the booster running without the main. If the main is off with the booster running, I would expect the booster would get starved of water, and then damage itself. It's impeller is not designed to draw water out of the pool, it's designed to increase the pressure of water being pumped into it. Something like that. It was especially important in my use case, because my pool was using one of those dual Intermatic timer rigs. The kind with the little screw-on tab thingies. Those things would come loose all the time, so while the initial timer setting ensured the booster only ran within the time span set for the main, those tabs would move and the two timers would get out of sync. With the wiring I had, even if its timer called for the booster, there was no power sent to it while the main's timer was not in "on" mode.

I would think your scenario is a common one, with each pump on its own breaker. I know you could safeguard the booster with an additional relay (it'd be relatively simple to wire one in), but perhaps whatever timer system you're using has that type of protection built in? Did you ask the electrician about how to deal with that?

Regarding the light fixture, I think that was actually KDpoolguy's suggestion. I don't have any recommendations. Like you, I'd want a colored LED with big lumens and dimmable! I don't think there is such a thing. I have a Pentair Intellibrite 5G and it is anything but "Intelli!" You change its color mode by flicking its on-off switch some number of times. 4 times for one color, 10 times for one of the preset light shows, etc. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click... It's barbaric, is what it is. And the light shows are lame, I can stand one of them, the others are awful (to me). That said, I do get some "dimming" affect by using the colors. I think by their nature all colored LED pool lights are somewhat lacking in brightness. They consist of colored LEDs, and water impacts color, so that's challenge one. And they achieve their brightest color, white, by combining red, blue and green LEDs, there is no dedicated white LEDs on board. So that's challenge two. That's how mine is, anyway. The results are weak. Red is the worst, because water absorbs red light (physics).

Fortunately, that fits with my use. I don't want a bright light, and my pool is small. I like the subtle shades best, as I'm just looking for an ambient glow, I'm not landing helicopters with it!! And the less people see of me in a pool, the better for all involved! I use greens and blues, mostly. And when I'm after a very dim light I use the red. So they're "dimmable" in that sense. White lights up my pool enough to keep track of the kids, but it's not bright by any stretch. And then there's challenge three, I have a dark finish, which also absorbs the light.

I'm guessing you can have bright, or you can have color. You might get dimmable with a halogen. If we're talkin' zany... there are filters you can attach to a light somehow (like these), physical lens-type dealies. So you could install a bright, white halogen, wire it to a dimmable smart switch. And buy some lens filters and apply them when the mood strikes.

You might consider starting a new thread about which light to use. I'm sure you'll get plenty of contributions to the topic, and it would be a useful thread for others shopping for lights, as well.

 

[chiefwej]

If you’re not after any color or light shows, just a very bright pool rated LED bulb. I found one that is brighter than the 500w halogen it replaced. There are others that you might be able to dim, but I wouldn’t try it with this one since it has a built in cooling fan. It’s just white light and not dimmable, but this uses only 50w of electricity to really light a pool.

Amazon.com : Bonbo LED Pool Bulb White Light, 120V 50watt 6500k Daylight White Swimming Pool LED Light Bulb E26 Base 300-600w Traditional Bulb Replacement Most Pentair Hayward Light Fixture : Garden Outdoor

 

[kevin007]

If you’re not after any color or light shows, just a very bright pool rated LED bulb. I found one that is brighter than the 500w halogen it replaced. There are others that you might be able to dim, but I wouldn’t try it with this one since it has a built in cooling fan. It’s just white light and not dimmable, but this uses only 50w of electricity to really light a pool.

Amazon.com : Bonbo LED Pool Bulb White Light, 120V 50watt 6500k Daylight White Swimming Pool LED Light Bulb E26 Base 300-600w Traditional Bulb Replacement Most Pentair Hayward Light Fixture : Garden Outdoor

Thanks! I actually ran accross this while searching these forums for "Pool Light Bulb Replacement." This one is on my short list. Dirk talked me out of colors

Now to find out which Niche I have so I can order a gasket replacement....

 

[Dirk]

Wait, what?

 

[kevin007]

Wait, what?

Your comment on colored light bulbs convinced me that I don't really need one.