Recommended Chemical levels VS CSI

[AusPhil]

My pool is good, I just saw your dust post from last week, I WISH I only had that much dust !!! And, contrary to what I thought, I still can't quite deal with it as I've still got tradies here cleaning up the last of the job on the deck. I thought they were done with the deck, but still some minor bits.... My backyard is destroyed, just a massive fine dust bowl and you are aware of the wind we have been seeing - Hoping this forecast rain comes this weekend, settles the dust and lets hope it's a drought breaker!

My only other issue is I have no stock of any chemicals, other than ph increaser initially given to me by pool shop, which I don't anticipate ever needing and the closest place for acid and pool chems for me is a 65km round trip, so I need to work out what to stock and what I need small bits of: ie stabiliser..

AusPhil, where do you get your acid and other chems from?

Cheers

I have Liquid Chlorine, Hydrochloric acid and Dry stabiliser on hand at any one time all purchased from whichever Bunnings i go to, Belconnen and Gungahlin are about the same distance and time for me.
I have 5L of acid, 30L of Chlorine and a 1.5kg packet of CYA.
Now i have a fully functional SWCG i'll drop back to one 15l drum chlorine when i use them over winter.
I don't seem to use much acid either as my pool seems to have settled in and happy around 7.8 and i'm happy to leave it there.

I hate the CCL PH test and bought a digital Ph meter from ebay that can be calibrated and got the calibration powders as well. Easier, faster and imo for me less error prone on the values.

 

[mknauss]

Try using 4 drops instead of 5 for the pH test. See if that helps with your color match. That is what I do.

 

[MickyT]

I'll have a look at that ph meter on ebay , see what I can see - cheers..

Does using four drops mean I have to drop the test water volume to 8ml also? - cheers

 

[AusPhil]

Try using 4 drops instead of 5 for the pH test. See if that helps with your color match. That is what I do.

I've read that tip before and have tried it to no avail for myself at least.... the CCL Ph test tube has the comparitive values on the side of the test tube and i'm convinced that makes it hard for me.

I'll have a look at that ph meter on ebay , see what I can see - cheers..

Does using four drops mean I have to drop the test water volume to 8ml also? - cheers

I didn't buy from this seller but this is the one i own.

Digital PH Meter Tap Water Quality Tester Water Measure w/ 2 PH Buffer Powder | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Digital PH Meter Tap Water Quality Tester Water Measure w/ 2 PH Buffer Powder at the best online prices at eBay!

www.ebay.com.au

No Marty means use 4 drops in the 10ml sample, the concept is to dilute the colour so you can see the shades easier.

 

[MickyT]

Thanks folks,
I'll give the 4 drops a try - 10ml sample... I want to ask: But won't that water down and affect the test results, but I'm not going to... See my trust in TFP experts

Thanks AusPhil for the link to ph meter, that might be an option, I'll persist for now with drops and try 4..
I figured also Bunnings would be your choice, thought I'd ask just in case you had found somewhere "special". I see Bunnings sells 20lt acid in their building/concrete section at a way better price than the 5ltr pack in the pool area. That'll save me stocking up on the smaller packs, just hope the 20ltr comes with a tap for easy (and safe) pouring.

Cheers

 

[mknauss]

Using 4 drops for pH does not change the outcome. It changes the intensity of the color. See if it makes a difference.

 

[MickyT]

I just gave the 4 drops a go, that could actually work for me. it would appear the issue for me at the moment is my ph has risen a bit to maybe 8.0 - 8.2, so I don't have a colour that i can properly compare to on the scale. Looks like I will have to do the trip today into town to get acid and CYA... Was hoping to hold off until Monday. Nice day for a drive ..... Cheers

 

[AusPhil]

Thanks folks,
I'll give the 4 drops a try - 10ml sample... I want to ask: But won't that water down and affect the test results, but I'm not going to... See my trust in TFP experts

Thanks AusPhil for the link to ph meter, that might be an option, I'll persist for now with drops and try 4..
I figured also Bunnings would be your choice, thought I'd ask just in case you had found somewhere "special". I see Bunnings sells 20lt acid in their building/concrete section at a way better price than the 5ltr pack in the pool area. That'll save me stocking up on the smaller packs, just hope the 20ltr comes with a tap for easy (and safe) pouring.

Cheers

Yeah i do have somewhere special for pvc parts etc for pools that bunnings just doesn't have. they are a pool supply distributor out at Fyshwick BUT Bunnings is cheaper certainly for the Chlorine and acid i think is on par and not worth the drive to Fyshwick for me.
I've not seen the Bondall Pool Acid before on the shelf so unless it is a lower strength variant of the 5L hydrochloric acid out of the building section it's the same thing at the same price in a different label. I can't find the strength listed anywhere and the picture is to small to read the label
Never seen Bunnings include a tap with any 20L drum of anything, but the taps are cheap.
I'd probably still just start with the 5L till you gauge how much you use.

 

[MickyT]

I just got back from the little big smoke and bought the 20 litre drum. I'll use that within the next two years presumably.. Doesn't come with a tap or a plug for one. There is a mould where a tap could/should be, but they didn't set it up. I'll just be super careful pouring it from the big container.

When I was originally looking at the products, I was looking online at Bunnings and the maker Bondall - the cheeky buggers - do 5ltrs of pool acid in a white container, and all their brickies stuff is in black containers for "concrete etching". I hope that they don't do the 2 labels to sell pool stuff dearer.. When you read the fine print of the black stuff, it also says suitable for pools and I confirmed both are 32%. The 20 litre drum is 25% cheaper, just harder to handle.

 

[jseyfert3]

Admittedly, I am having a bit if a struggle reading the ph. I'm not colour blind, I just find my sample is like a gloss colour and the test colour code is a satin/flat colour. I throws me off a bit.

I'm not color blind (so far as I know) and even with the shaded matte plastic color and shaded matte plastic on the sample tube the Taylor kits use I struggle with the higher shades of pink. And I've seen others say the same thing. (though to be completely fair it doesn't help that most of my testing right now is at night, since it's winter and I'm testing a spa. Getting a really high CRI bulb (i.e. incandescent) would almost certainly help me with reading this)

The Clear Choice looks like it'd be even harder to use with just colors pasted on the outside of the tube. That's similar (but better) then the aquarium test kit I used to have. Everything was a color gradient (no color switching like the majority of the pool tests) and you had these little 5 mL vials that you had to hold up to a card that had about 25 different color squares on it for all the different tests and try and figure out which one matched closest. Not very fun.

The Taylor midget and slide pH comparitors are the top of the line for color comparison. They actually use a real solution at different colors in little glass vials as the comparison for the most precise color matching, so you aren't matching a swath or piece of colored plastic to a fluid, you're matching a fluid to a fluid. They are really expensive though (and you guys already can't get Taylor stuff).

I'll probably just pick myself up an electronic pH probe for everyday testing and keep the phenol red test for checking the pH probe occasionally.

 

[MickyT]

Try using 4 drops instead of 5 for the pH test. See if that helps with your color match. That is what I do.

Hi all,

Well, here's a funny little story for you all. Talk about getting confused with drops and counts etc.. So, as mentioned yesterday I tried Marty's appreciated suggestion and used 4 drops with the ph result published above (now Marty this is not disparaging toward your advice, I appreciated it greatly and you were not to know). I threw in acid yesterday to drop ph and did a recheck this morning. Pulled out my CCL test kit and booklet and ran through the test again. Got to the bit where it says ADD 2 DROPS of reagent. I've gone "what"!!! Turns out CCL kits only require 2 drops not 5 for ph.

I'm sitting thinking, what is happening here, as I was sure it also used 5 drops. Then I began to question whether all along I've been using 5 drops and no wonder it was so bright, however I reassured myself I had been following the booklet, but got caught up in all the discussion.

But... I was still convinced I have used 5 drops for ph test, I was sure of it, which is why I never had any questions with advice. Then it dawned on me. I got a test kit given to me by the pool shop. Uses the DPD tablets and phenol red for ph. THAT uses 5 drops and that's why it was never an issue relating to 4 drops. So, I guess the lesson is, if you have a CCL kit (Australia) 4 drops is probably not the answer you seek. Just to re-iterate Marty, this is not about your advice, just the CCL kits use a different process.

The CCL kit with the ph label stuck on the side is my only criticism of their test kit. Anyway, back on track, this morning my ph is down to 7.4 and that colour is a lot easier to read. Whilst still bright and "metallic" in appearance, colour was comfortably in the 7.4 range.

After pulling out my old pool shop test kit, I must admit their test tube vial has a better colour sample than CCL. It's one that is readily available in Aus in the cheap kits, it's a rectangle piece and has both the ph and Chlorine test tubes down the side with the coloured sections through the middle, and like it is etched into the plastic.

JSEYFERT3: Thanks for your input. That got me thinking about how each company's colour sample relates to ph.... Does 7.4 appear as the same colour across all samples and brands? So I just checked both test tubes I have - CCL v pool shop (Astral) thinking I could use the test tube from Astral with my CCL chems. The answer to that is not exactly, it would appear they are one step out with each other - 7.4 on one = 7.6 on the other. Then I worked out CCL is a 10ml sample, Pool shop tube is about 6 - 7ml, so I can't use it as a direct swap out.

What I think I can do, is if I am ever unsure of my CCL sample colour, I could pour the mixed CCL sample into the other tube, double check colour and drop it down one level. Sounds a bit complicated, but I know what I mean

Fall back will be to consider one of those digital meters.

Thank you all..

 

[mknauss]

old pool shop test kit

Be aware that many pH test kits from pool shops use a different reagent and are only good for pH when the FC is at 5 ppm or below. The Taylor kit TFP recommends is good to a FC of 10 ppm.

 

[AusPhil]

@MickyT you have made me question my own use of the CCL Ph test, haven't used it in 12 months but had read the 4/5 drop stuff on here so long maybe i was using more than 2 drops as well. Exercise for the weekend

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

The electronic meters once calibrated properly with standards (which is a must with electronic meters, and I recommend doing it EVERY TIME you use it) are more accurate and don't seem to suffer from the FC >10 ppm problem (at non ridiculous FC levels). I have to admit though that I can do the drop tests much faster so I use them a lot more lately.

I am jealous in the quality of the water in the rest of the world. There are very few places in the US that don't have hard water, many also have high TA. So bear that in mind in a US centric site like this. I concur that you are fine, especially for a fiberglass shell, but if you have a heater (and IIRC the salt cell) err on the small positive on CSI if you can.

I am much looser in my limits for my detached fiberglass shell hot tub then in the plaster pool. The problem here is trying not to have scale form and contrary not be too acid for the heater core. Using Liquid Chlorine in it works great but it's a trick not to overdose and bleach out stuff either. I use Muriatic Acid in it by the teaspoon full to adjust pH down on a regular basis, a fraction of a US cup (milliliters) of bleach is a normal dose.

With a normal pool volume and the water you have you shouldn't have the issues we do with our high CH and TA water that is common in the US. (Arizona is particularly bad, though my water system is one of the better ones in the state. Water was quite hard when I lived in the US Midwest also). But, if you keep that ash out of your pool for a few more months, I think you will be golden. You are doing fine. Enjoy.

Luckily the pool is far more stable than the tub, which makes sense by volume... so even though I run a tighter ship with the pool, it's much easier to manage. Your water number seem quite normal, especially for the softer water you have.

 

[duraleigh]

There are very few places in the US that don't have hard water

Well, not really. Almost all the Eastern half of the United States has CH below 200, as do the Northern states and a lot of the Midwest. Being in AZ, you are thinking colloquially and assuming your conditions exist everywhere...........they don't.

 

[jseyfert3]

Well, not really. Almost all the Eastern half of the United States has CH below 200, as do the Northern states and a lot of the Midwest. Being in AZ, you are thinking colloquially and assuming your conditions exist everywhere...........they don't.

I'm not sure about "a lot" of the midwest having soft water. In central and northern Illinois I had a TA and CH around 300-400. I didn't actually measure my fill water in south-central WI but my CH is close to 400, TA is likely 300+. (Right before I posted I checked the latest water report for the city. Average total alkalinity is 288 mg/L CaCO3, average total hardness 335 mg/L CaCO3.

I think it really depends where the water is sourced, not just the location. In central Illinois our city sourced from three well sites and one river site, and "in general" where I lived was sourced by the wells. Where I live in Wisconsin it's a 50/50 mix of shallow (100-200 feet) and deep (1150 feet) wells sourcing the city's water, and they say where I live in the city has no affect on well source, only which well(s) they have running at that time.

I would assume the river/shallow wells will be relatively soft, whereas the deep wells are likely hard. I should measure my brother's farm well (100-150 feet) to check this hypothesis. Would also be interesting to track my water over a series of weeks/months to see if the CH/TA changes as different wells are switched on and off.

 

[Leebo]

I’ll speak as one who’s been able to somewhat look at average calcium levels of several hundred thousand test results........
The average TFP pool in the US has a lot lower calcium than one may think. While there are areas in the US that struggle with calcium, a combo of rain and soft fill water make the average CH level in a pool rather low for the majority of the country.

 

[AusPhil]

I’ll speak as one who’s been able to somewhat look at average calcium levels of several hundred thousand test results........
The average TFP pool in the US has a lot lower calcium than one may think. While there are areas in the US that struggle with calcium, a combo of rain and soft fill water make the average CH level in a pool rather low for the majority of the country.

Hey Leebo,
I know the Aust sample set is quite tiny but be interesting to know if it's similar ... Like all forums it's typical that we would see more of the edge cases written about as people seek answers to issues.

 

[jseyfert3]

I’ll speak as one who’s been able to somewhat look at average calcium levels of several hundred thousand test results........
The average TFP pool in the US has a lot lower calcium than one may think. While there are areas in the US that struggle with calcium, a combo of rain and soft fill water make the average CH level in a pool rather low for the majority of the country.

Good point. There's a big difference between having hard fill water and lots of rain (like here in the midwest where I am) and having hard fill water and little rain (plus usually lots of heat), like in Arizona.

 

[MickyT]

So bear that in mind in a US centric site like this.

Nooooo!!!! Don't tell me that!! I've been trying not to question any of the figures and levels suggested on here, as they are in contrast to Australian Government and Industry recommendations. Don't get me wrong, I've been suspicious of industry standards from the moment I thought about getting a pool, so it was a God send this site existed, with the levels already calculated for me, so I was an easy convert. I've also pointed a few friends with pools to this site. But if things like CSI are calculated and adjusted proportionate to the US market, that'll do my head in . It's bad enough that things like Borates I hadn't even heard of and the product Borax I think I only know of that from shows like "the Brady Bunch" or something. Not sure if it is available in Australia - not that I've looked. The only place that may have it is Costco, which is relatively new to Australia (particularly Canberra). Either way we ( I ) need to trust the figures are relative across the board and not adjusted to account for hard water conditions in the US specific. (However, I do appreciate this is a US built site)

So much is already different in Aus, for example, I read somewhere here that if you need salt, look for water softener salt as its cheaper than pool salt. I went and looked for it, there's apparently not much call for it here (US hard water v our conditions ??) but when I did find some, it was dearer than pool salt.

And we put meat in our pies and you put fruit in them - go figure!!

Don't get me wrong Rattus, I actually appreciated your input, it has given me more food for thought when calculating my numbers...