reassurance/emotional support needed please! :)

[garybtru]

Hi all,

I explained to the Mrs. that the TFP method is the way to go and I dropped the cashola on a shiny new TF-100 test kit. After the first run of my test kit it's clear (no pun intended) that I need to drain/re-fill about 50% of the water to lower my CYA.

So the Mrs. kinda flipped out and said "What? The water bill will be super high! Just go to a local pool store and see what they say." For some reason I have total faith in you complete strangers, and consider you all as my "local pool store".

That said, I'm at a bit of a crossroads here... I have a few questions and think she just needs some re-assurance that we're going down the right path.

1. The CYA test is indeed a bit subjective (as the instructions say). One of the goals of the TFP method is to save money, correct? So is it really worth draining/re-filling half my pool water based on the results of a fairly subjective test? Why is high CYA bad for swimmers again?

2. After replacing the water, let's say my CYA is finally down to ~50-60. (Is 60 okay? I'd rather replace the least amount of water possible.) I believe after the SLAM (about $24) I'll have to add a gallon of bleach every day ($2.99 for 121oz of 8.25% bleach from local grocer) until it stabilizes?

3. I think I remember reading somewhere before that local pool stores try selling a bunch of chemicals we don't necessarily need... I am all for trimming off the fat and just buying what I actually need! But if bleach is 8.25% Sodium Hypochlorite, isn't that only "8.25% of what I actually need?" And I'll have to add bleach to the pool every morning vs. throwing a puck in the skimmer that lasts a few days?

I know that the TFP method reduces guess-work and saves us money in the long run, but how exactly? Could you provide some examples of when and where going the "local pool store" route can go wrong? Maybe it has happened to you in the past?

Again, I have total confidence that everyone has done the math, compared the "local pool store" method (along with the cost of chemicals) to the TFP method and decided liquid chlorine/TFP way is the way to go, but I don't know how to communicate that to my superior. This is our first pool, so basically everything is new to us at this point.

I've also read the Pool School stuff, so that was helpful.

Thanks a ton!!

-Gary

 

[Texas Splash]

So is it really worth draining/re-filling half my pool water based on the results of a fairly subjective test? Why is high CYA bad for swimmers again?

Yes, but it's not that it's bad for the swimmers. The high CYA means your FC must also be high. Eventually it gets to a point where the FC can't keep up.

Is 60 okay? I'd rather replace the least amount of water possible

Absolutely! Just adjust your FC SLAM level accordingly

But if bleach is 8.25% Sodium Hypochlorite, isn't that only "8.25% of what I actually need

Bleach & chlorine are the same thing. The other ingredients are mostly water and a small amount of sodium. Virtually no bad effects or by-products. Easy to dose ad administer to the water. A pool, just like a family pet, needs to be fed each day. So yes, you'll add some bleach each day. I add about 1/2 gallon each evening after I've tested my water. Easy stuff.

I know that the TFP method reduces guess-work and saves us money in the long run, but how exactly?

Simple. Accurate testing = efficient (and effective) chemical dosing with desired results. No bad advice, no wasting chemicals or paying for over-priced chemicals. No wasted gas to the pool store. No frustration!

Gary, stick to the vital links you see below in my signature. They won't let you down. You did good on that TF-100. You and you wife will see that soon.

 

[duraleigh]

1st question....look up your water rate per/1000 gallons.....it may not be like you think. ask them if they'll discount for filling swimming pools. Most do.

Others will help with the cost issues and I'll chime back in.

Don't worry.....this is gonna' work out for you

 

[drharris]

Hi all,
I know that the TFP method reduces guess-work and saves us money in the long run, but how exactly? Could you provide some examples of when and where going the "local pool store" route can go wrong? Maybe it has happened to you in the past?

Here's the most common scenario: You get an algae bloom, and go to the store. They give you 8 bags of shock and some hardness increaser (why not, good for profit margin) for your vinyl pool (not needed). You dump in all the shock, and the pool clears up for the most part. However, your CYA just increased from 100 to 120 ppm. This requires an even higher FC level to properly sanitize. The store just wants you to have 1-3ppm, but maybe you need 13ppm at that CYA level. So you don't have enough FC, another algae bloom hits. Go back to the store, more shock, higher CYA, repeat everything.

I actually have a very good local store that doesn't even try to sell you all the chemicals, but even they have issues with testing inaccuracies and not being concerned with things like pH drift ("just add more ____"). Chain stores are really bad, and some might even go as far to misrepresent some of the test numbers to sell you things you don't need (CH increaser).

 

[pabeader]

 

[borjis]

Ya know what might work, is finding successful posts here where folks testify going from pool store methods
to tfp methods, saving money and having stress free pool management.

there's ye proof.

 

[garybtru]

Ya know what might work, is finding successful posts here where folks testify going from pool store methods
to tfp methods, saving money and having stress free pool management.

there's ye proof.

That would be perfect! Then I could say "See? told you so!" Thank you so much for the replies thus far, @drharris, @duraleigh, @Texas Splash - I'll def. look into rate per/1000 gallons. A half gallon a night seems like a lot to me! You guys must have basements full of 200 jugs of bleach!!

 

[benm2010]

I will personally attest to TFP working faster and cheaper than the pool store methods. Last year our above ground pool never completely cleared despite buying no less than 20 bottles of algaecide ($15 or so per bottle) and a couple of bags a shock every week ($10). We spent $100s and had no clear pool using a pool store. This year, using the TFP slam pool was clear within 2 weeks and has remained sparkling with no more than a gallon of bleach a week and some acid*. Just not using the algaecide alone would have saved me enough money to fill a large pool.

*Disclaimer: My bleach consumption is low because I am currently supplementing with Tri-Chlor tabs since the pool started with 0 CYA. Have a large bucket that I'm trying to use up before the move to new house/pool so I really don't care what the CYA level is at the end of the summer that's for the new owner to deal with. Tri-Chlor is not endorsed or recommended for a TFP.

 

[garybtru]

Awesome, thanks for the input, Ben! Wow, that's a bunch of algaecide!

 

[SandyO]

1. The first year I had my pool I did not drain it to lower the CYA. I just increased the goal for my Chlorine each day. As the year went on and I had to replenish splashed out water or backwashed water it (very) slowly went down. I did the big drain at the end of the summer when I closed my pool so the second year I ran it with a lower CYA.

2. Every pool is different on how much Chlorine it uses each day. I usually go through 3 gallons a week (so about $9-$12). But I've always said it was far cheaper than anything the pool store would sell me.

3. Save the pucks for vacation when you're not home. Once you get your CYA down you're never going to want to do anything to deal with it high again. (Pucks add CYA)

When I first started I read all the threads I could on SLAMing and what everyone else went through on getting their pool from green-to-clean. Read those and tell your wife about them.

 

[garybtru]

1. The first year I had my pool I did not drain it to lower the CYA. I just increased the goal for my Chlorine each day. As the year went on and I had to replenish splashed out water or backwashed water it (very) slowly went down. I did the big drain at the end of the summer when I closed my pool so the second year I ran it with a lower CYA.

2. Every pool is different on how much Chlorine it uses each day. I usually go through 3 gallons a week (so about $9-$12). But I've always said it was far cheaper than anything the pool store would sell me.

3. Save the pucks for vacation when you're not home. Once you get your CYA down you're never going to want to do anything to deal with it high again. (Pucks add CYA)

When I first started I read all the threads I could on SLAMing and what everyone else went through on getting their pool from green-to-clean. Read those and tell your wife about them.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your thoughts! I can already tell you're right, I won't ever want to deal with lowering the CYA again. I've had to drain 2 feet of water twice so far. Yikes!

She's convinced, now I just need to get over the hump into trouble-free-land.

 

[ta2dwonderwoman]

I am "the mrs" at our house, and I deal with all things pool related except the heavy work (leveling, deck building, etc) - I filled my pool fresh last summer and within a month could not keep my FC level up at all. I went to my trusty pool store...they ran some tests on some fancy machines and told me I needed to drain my pool. (keep in mind that over the previous 30 days, I put in everything they told me to exactly how they told me to- I now know that they had my cya so high from bad advice that I was in chlorine lock which is why I could not keep my fc up at all no matter how many pucks I floated and put in the return jet so that they would dissolve quicker, their advice) I was a week or so away from a 2 week houseguest situation that we planned to be mostly about swimming...so I told her that draining the pool and refilling was not a good option as that would cost me another $150.00 in water plus all new chemicals to get things going right again. at that point, she told me that if I didn't want to drain, I needed to add (insert close to $100.00 in chemicals here) which in the end turned out to be around 23 lbs of powdered chemicals that proceeded to turn my pool into a bowl of milk even though I dissolved it in water first (well, it was just really milky looking) and I could not see 4 inches into the water...I called them, they said it was fine and to run my pump 24/7 and keep a clean filter in it and it would clear up in a day or two...I gave it 3 or 4 days and it was still horrible. while this was all going on, in the background I was Nancy Drewing my hiney off to try and save the swim visit from disaster...ok, so I was really just googling but that counts as Nancy Drewing these days right? anyways...I found TFP around day 2 or so of the milk pond. I posted. I got so much help it made me believe in my pool again! in the end, I had to drain the dang thing and with the help of the folks on the forum and pool school and pool math I refilled and got my test kit, I got a bit of the recommended chemicals (baking soda, liquid chlorine, MA, etc) – now I am addicted to making sure my numbers are square daily, keeps my pool soul happy while the water is too cold. I didn’t even cover my pool this winter, just made sure it had some FC in it at all times, which is easy when the sun is not burning it off, and when I “opened” my pool in march, it was dirty on the bottom from some dirt and a few leaves, but the water was clear…it got a bit wonky when I started trying to clean the bottom because my vac wasn’t working so I was basically stirring things up and letting the sand filter do its thing while I waited for a new vac set up to get here…long story short, this is the way to go…you will be stunned by the results if you do it right and take no shortcuts.

and let me say that superman :super:has trusted me with this but was definitely in the "really? are you sure this is not voodoo or witchcraft that will steal our souls?" mode at first... he is a believer now and tells others about it even though he has no real clue , just that TFP is the best thing ever!

 

[Sfpat]

It's either drain now or drain later. Continual use of pool store method will lead to the point where the only way to "blue" up the water is to drain and start over. I know as I was caught in the pool store cycle for about 15 years, doing a complete drain every 3-5 years. Algae, add algecide and lots of shock, more algae, more shock, algecide, etc. finally drain when nothing else would work. Started TFP last year and have only added bleach since (and some MA for pH control) spending about $10/wk with no algecide, clarifier, shock, etc. Had my easiest start-up ever this spring. Water has been crystal clear with no hint of algae or cloudiness. Grandkids love the pool and wife is happy (doesn't have to look at green pool). The method works and saves mucho bucks.

 

[kris77]

I didnt read each post in this thread in depth so i may be repeating things....

My wife had a pool growing up. Her parents always used pucks and shock and floc and all that stuff. Every year, the pool would get cloudy and they would go dump more shock in. It would clear up for a few weeks and then get cloudy again....eventually in August, the pool would turn green. They would floc it and close it down early because it was green. They had their "set way" of doing things and she was very hesitant to trust "some stupid internet site" in her words...because of course "everything you see on the internet is true".

I made her a deal when we decided to build our own pool. Give me a month. If its green and grungy and slimy, we'll do the pool store way. She agreed. So the first year, my pool was absolutely SPOTLESS. Never got cloudy, was crystal clear, and i mean crystal clear....So clear you could read the date on a quarter from on the deck through 4 1/2 feet of water. We've been going strong this was for 3 years now. I've converted 2 of my friends to switch to this method and they were both hesitant at first, but once they saw my water, they decided to give it a try. Now they both are dedicated to it. Now for the real story........

Wife's parents called me in July last year and said.....and i quote....."Our pool is not nearly as clear and clean as yours. Can you come show us what to do? We are going to try your way." All i heard last year was their pool was clearer that year than anytime in the past 20 years of owning a pool. Now they are converted.

Listen to these guys, read pool school, get familiar with pool math, learn what chemicals do what. I dont suggest this and it goes against everything they teach here, but my pool behaves the same way every day. CYA of 40-45, uses 40 oz of 12% chlorine every 2 days. I test it once a week, sometimes twice. Usually i just go out and dump in 40-45oz every other day and it just works. Takes me all of 5 minutes. By all means though, please, please, please.....test your pool every day till you get the hang of it. Your pool will have a pattern. Most do. It will become second nature to you soon enough.

Enjoy!!!!!

 

[Rollercoastr]

Grandkids love the pool and wife is happy (doesn't have to look at green pool). The method works and saves mucho bucks.

superman :super:has trusted me with this but was definitely in the "really? are you sure this is not voodoo or witchcraft that will steal our souls?" mode at first... he is a believer now and tells others about it even though he has no real clue , just that TFP is the best thing ever!

Thanks a bunch for sharing your thoughts! I can already tell you're right, I won't ever want to deal with lowering the CYA again. I've had to drain 2 feet of water twice so far. Yikes!

She's convinced, now I just need to get over the hump into trouble-free-land.

I've converted 2 of my friends to switch to this method and they were both hesitant at first, but once they saw my water, they decided to give it a try. Now they both are dedicated to it. Now for the real story........

Wife's parents called me in July last year and said.....and i quote....."Our pool is not nearly as clear and clean as yours. Can you come show us what to do? We are going to try your way." All i heard last year was their pool was clearer that year than anytime in the past 20 years of owning a pool. Now they are converted.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I have successfully influenced NO-ONE into using proper pool care methods! My worst failure is a friend of mine with an inherently clinical, curious and data-driven nature. He spends a fortune at the pool store and his pool is un-usable for weeks and sometimes months at a time. He won't even let me discuss it. Another failure are friends of mine who inherited a hot tub that gives them rashes. More potions? Check. A third conversion attempt just changes the subject or ignores it.

Does anyone know a good book on how to influence people? I apparently need to do some reading.

 

[jasnovanorder]

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I have successfully influenced NO-ONE into using proper pool care methods! My worst failure is a friend of mine with an inherently clinical, curious and data-driven nature. He spends a fortune at the pool store and his pool is un-usable for weeks and sometimes months at a time. He won't even let me discuss it. Another failure are friends of mine who inherited a hot tub that gives them rashes. More potions? Check. A third conversion attempt just changes the subject or ignores it.

Does anyone know a good book on how to influence people? I apparently need to do some reading.

Same boat. Have a friend that wants a pool. Told them once they do I will show them what I do and how it all works. Every time all I get in response is "All you need to do is shock it in the spring and put tabs in the skimmer your just wasting money." So I just sit back nod and smile knowing once the frogs have overrun their new swamp they will give me a call......maybe.

 

[pabeader]

Unfortunately you have discovered the plight of the enlightened. You can't convert those that 'know better'. All you can do is enjoy your success and hope that they catch on. When you invite them over and your pool is always ready for use, let that serve as a beacon in the darkness.

 

[SwimAustin]

I learned very quickly not to say anything, but last time I was in someones pool I saw a really nice Taylor test kit. So I made the mistake of asking and he said he likes to go to the pool store to double check his results (sigh). Then I asked about CYA and he said he didn't use any. He didn't need it. He has a ozone system and a Frog mineral system and so he can run a very low chlorine level (< .5 ppm) with only "occasional" algae problems. He went on to say that since he uses so little chlorine, he can just get it from a tablet dispenser. I was desperately trying to change the conversion, while looking around at the massive bather load and wondering if there was any sanitation left at all. The pool was less than a year old. He'll start having more problems as his CYA goes up. That must have been one happy pool builder.

Back to the OP's questions, I don't think I saw anyone say that once you get your pool on track, you'll likely never need to SLAM again. Now that my CYA is reasonable, I hardly think about algae any more. And has been said, I can usually predict the test results before testing. My accuracy is lowest when the seasons (sunlight) is changing fast.

Also, I've noticed that Northern US pools and Southern US pools are a bit different. Down here we keep them open all winter, but it isn't much work. Testing and dosing once or twice a week tops.