Question about low pressure at filter

[andyhi]

Hi, first time prospective pool owner here.

I'm negotiating the final details of the contact of a 2015 home that has a pool and spa. I beleive the pool/spa was put in around 2017. The P/S has Pentair control system (looks like an EasyTouch control panel), PA automated valves, PA pumps, PA filter, etc. I'm told the filter is a cartridge system.

The general home inspection turned up some minor leaks around various pumps / valves and what I was told was lower than normal pressure at the filter. The inspector mentioned it was perhaps 10 psi low. I seem to recall the analog guage may have been displaying around ~10 - 15 PSI after several minutes of operation. Also a near by pump was not operating. During the few seconds this particular pump was started/operated, a loud squealing was emitted which I speculate is a worn out / water damaged bearing.

I took a photo of the failing pump. It's labled Pentair EC-LA01N. From a google search on the part number, this appears to be a booster pump. It was located closer to the filter housing than the other pumps the inspector noted was for the spa and pool.

It seems to me the low presure at the filter is most likely related to the failing/failed pump. Does this sound like the most likley culprit or am I off base here?


The part number search turns up ads for a replacement in the ~$400 - 500 range. I suspect the folks in this forum will be able to point me to a supplier that offers even better discounts (online or Houston area). Or perhaps a tear down / single part replacement option. Replies / DMs would be appreciated if you have a Pentair discount supplier or discount codes that can't be publically discussed.


Note - I had an above ground / portable spa years back so I understand the basics of water chemistry but have never owned / operated a full in ground pool system. However, I've probably acculated $10k in tools / gadgets over the years, don't shy away from most vehicle repairs short of major engine / transmission work, and would certainly tackle any pump / valve / pumbing repairs, control panel upgrades / addons, etc. myself... I did all of my own lawn sprinker repairs / upgrades for 15+ years and there are similarities.

Any other thoughts from those more experienced in these matters than myself?

Thanks in advance...

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

The booster pump if properly installed is after the filter and it’s operation does not effect filter pressure.

Noisy booster pumps are all too common.

We need to know the model of the filter to specifically comment about the filter pressure. But 10-15 psi is more likely to be ok than 25. And filter pressure is proportional to pump speed and we don’t know what speed the pump was running at.

I doubt the filter pressure is indicative of any major problem. And I have my questions about the competence of your pool inspector.

Did the pool inspector send you a written report?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Andy,

We need to see pics of the equipment pad...

I doubt that your inspector has a clue, but will give him the benefit of doubt until I see the pics.

As a reference, I have a large Pentair cartridge filter and my normal filter pressure is about 1 to 2 PSI...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[HermanTX]

As a follow up to what Jim stated, if the main filter pump is a variable speed pump then low filter pressure is a result of running the pump at a low speed. In general, it is better to have low filter pressure than high. However, a picture of the pump would confirm if it is a variable speed or a single speed pump. Also a picture of the filter would be helpful.
If there are any water features on the pool, it may be good to verify if they work properly.

The pump you provided info on is a booster pump and the purpose is to power the pressure side cleaner that should be in the pool or it is stored for the winter. It is downstream of the filter so it has no impact on filter pressure.

 

[Bperry]

Yep low pressure is good. High pressure would be indicative of a clogged filter or some other restriction in the line.

But impossible to say, without knowing more details of the pump, and the rest of the system. A dying pump could also be causing low pressure, but not very likely.

 

[andyhi]

Wow, thanks everyone for the feedback.

This was a general home inspector and not a pool inspection specialist. He was very proficient at operating the easy touch panel but that doesn't make him a pool expert. To his credit, he did recomend having a pool inspection specialist look things over.

I've attached various pool pump area photos from his report. The report does not go into detail for the pool components other than the damaged pump.


As for the filter and pump(s)...

One of the inspection photos shows the filter to be a Pentair Clearner and Clear Plus Cartridge Filter. P/N 160301.

A zoom in of the "filter area" photo shows a fairly low reading on the PSI guage... but it's too blurry to show numbering. I'm guessing it's more like 5 - 10 PSI but who knows what the pump speed was at that point.

Now that I've had a chance to look over the photos, the failing pump is not plumbed direclty to the filter, which I had originally assumed.

Yellow arrow to failing pump. (I'm 99% certain it's a failed bearing given the screatching metal on metal sound. It was only operated for a copule of times for only a couple seconds.)

Inspector mentioned two other working pumps, I beleive one for Pool and one for Spa. I assume the one I labeled "Larger Working Pump" is the main pump for the Pool. You can see the smaller working pump next to the failing booster pump.

The inspector also mentioned that you would receive high pressure if the filter were clogged.



House has been vacant for ~7 months but he has a pool cleaner come by. No idea if they have done anything to clean the filter since moving out.

It's way to messy for my taste and will receive TLC. Also most of the water is from intermitant rain that morning.

Note - Tree comes with the house


Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[ajw22]

Noisy booster pump does not mean failing booster pump. You run that pump maybe 2 hours a day for the pool cleaner. A booster pump can run a long time being noisy as long as the noise does not bother you or your neighbors.

Was there a pool cleaner in the pool that is run regularly?

Did the inspector fire up the MasterTemp pool heater? That is the most expensive piece of equipment you have.

I don’t hear any showstoppers with the pool. Looks like the pool has good fairly modern equipment that is working.

 

[JamesW]

All equipment will eventually reach its end of life, so I would consider the equipment to be generally worth zero unless you can verify that it is brand new.

You will have to replace all of it eventually and you can automatically assume that the equipment is at least halfway to end of life unless proven otherwise.

This way, you have already priced in the replacement of all equipment and you won't feel bad if you have to replace equipment fairly soon.

I would be mostly concerned with if the pool holds water or if it is out of level.

Those are the big and expensive red flags.

Replacing equipment is fairly straightforward and not outrageous compared to the price of a house and property.

Get a pool service person to check for leaks, pool level and equipment function and get the labels from all equipment to see how old it is.

 

[JamesW]

The tab feeder is a big red flag as it can wreak havoc on all equipment if the pump is off and the tabs in the feeder create a corrosive mix of low pH high chlorine water that migrates away from the feeder into the rest of the system.

Also, look for metal stains in the pool as that can be indicative of copper from the heat exchanger getting stripped out.

Can you show pictures of the pool?

 

[JamesW]

House has been vacant for ~7 months but he has a pool cleaner come by.

Call this person and ask them to tell you everything they know about the pool including any problems or concerns and to send you all paperwork regarding the pool including bills, proposals, problems etc.

Ideally, meet them onsite and ask them to give you a rundown of everything.

The paperwork should include all chemistry readings for their service calls as well as the chemicals added.

Also contact the builder to see what records they have and ask them if they know of any issues or problems with the pool.

If possible, go to their shop and meet them in person to see what they can and will tell you.

 

[HermanTX]

One of the inspection photos shows the filter to be a Pentair Clearner and Clear Plus Cartridge Filter. P/N 160301.

That is a good filter. You will need to clean it twice a year depending on how much debris comes into the pool.

ellow arrow to failing pump. (I'm 99% certain it's a failed bearing given the screatching metal on metal sound. It was only operated for a copule of times for only a couple seconds.)

The booster pump has the flexible hose coming out of the exit of the pump. You should only run it occasionally, again, depending on the amount of debris in pool. Once the fall leaves fell. I hardly use my cleaner. but 1-2 hrs per week BTW, that is called a pressure side cleaner and there should be the cleaner in the pool, attached to the outlet. I am guessing it is a Polaris cleaner as they are common in Houston area. However, once you settle in, write down the mfg. and model you have.

Inspector mentioned two other working pumps, I beleive one for Pool and one for Spa. I assume the one I labeled "Larger Working Pump" is the main pump for the Pool. You can see the smaller working pump next to the failing booster pump.

The main circulation pump is next to the filter (and also next to the booster pump). It appears to be a single speed pump but getting the mfg. and model number will help. See the exit plumbing from the pump goes to the filter. Then the plumbing from the filter goes to the heater then out back to the pool.

The other pump, next to the heater, appears to be a dedicated spa and/or water feature pump. It looks like a variable speed pump. See that it has a single suction line into the pump, then on the exit side it tees off to two lines. Nothing goes to the filter or to the heater. At least not what is shown in the pictures.

Some better photos of the equipment pad would help identify the plumbing layout.

I would cut that tree down from behind the filter. Probably has been there for past 7 months or longer.

It also appears you have an automation system - the box hanging on the wall. Show photos of that as well. Ask the pool maintenance man if that is functioning.

 

[andyhi]

Noisy booster pump does not mean failing booster pump. You run that pump maybe 2 hours a day for the pool cleaner. A booster pump can run a long time being noisy as long as the noise does not bother you or your neighbors.

Was there a pool cleaner in the pool that is run regularly?

Did the inspector fire up the MasterTemp pool heater? That is the most expensive piece of equipment you have.

I don’t hear any showstoppers with the pool. Looks like the pool has good fairly modern equipment that is working.

I hear what you are saying about booster pumps being noisy, but this sounded like serious metal on metal griding. Perhaps this is normal and only occurs during startup. I can look at it closer in time and tear it down for a visual at a later point if justified. Best case - <$50 for a sealed bearing or a couple hundred for motor assuming I can find oem or better quality replacement parts. Worst case it's ~$500 for full replacment. None of these are a show stopper. It's just a matter of whether preventative maintance might negate a larger repair / full replacement down the road... but I get that pumps are wear and tear items and have to be replaced / rebuilt.

On the Pool Cleaner - unknown at this time. I don't recall seeing a pool cleaner in the pool nor anywhere else on the property. This is surprising as this is a nice home in an expensive area. Perhaps it got accidentally packed / tossed when the seller moved. The inside of the pool is relatively clean and water is crystal clear. However, the inspector noted there were past signs of yellow/red algae that lend to slight plaster staining. I'm going back over this weekend and will look around for the cleaner. I'll try to grab some photos with my good camera also.

On the Pool Heater - The home inspector activated the heating cycle. It lit within ~15 - 30 seconds and put off plenty of heat above. It was not run for any length of time and we did not check water temp. But the home inspector confirmed the unit shut off immediately (to check for safety) when the pool / pumps / cycles were turned off at the control panel. (I'm guessing this is fine for a one off saftey check, but might not be recomended for regular use. I would think you want the heater to turn off and pumps run for another 30 - 60 seconds aftwards... but that is pure speculation.)

Thanks for your input.... much appreciated.

 

[andyhi]

Call this person and ask them to tell you everything they know about the pool including any problems or concerns and to send you all paperwork regarding the pool including bills, proposals, problems etc.

Ideally, meet them onsite and ask them to give you a rundown of everything.

The paperwork should include all chemistry readings for their service calls as well as the chemicals added.

Also contact the builder to see what records they have and ask them if they know of any issues or problems with the pool.

If possible, go to their shop and meet them in person to see what they can and will tell you.

All great points for good sources of information. Will start tracking down both.

 

[andyhi]

That is a good filter. You will need to clean it twice a year depending on how much debris comes into the pool.


The booster pump has the flexible hose coming out of the exit of the pump. You should only run it occasionally, again, depending on the amount of debris in pool. Once the fall leaves fell. I hardly use my cleaner. but 1-2 hrs per week BTW, that is called a pressure side cleaner and there should be the cleaner in the pool, attached to the outlet. I am guessing it is a Polaris cleaner as they are common in Houston area. However, once you settle in, write down the mfg. and model you have.


The main circulation pump is next to the filter (and also next to the booster pump). It appears to be a single speed pump but getting the mfg. and model number will help. See the exit plumbing from the pump goes to the filter. Then the plumbing from the filter goes to the heater then out back to the pool.

The other pump, next to the heater, appears to be a dedicated spa and/or water feature pump. It looks like a variable speed pump. See that it has a single suction line into the pump, then on the exit side it tees off to two lines. Nothing goes to the filter or to the heater. At least not what is shown in the pictures.

Some better photos of the equipment pad would help identify the plumbing layout.

I would cut that tree down from behind the filter. Probably has been there for past 7 months or longer.

It also appears you have an automation system - the box hanging on the wall. Show photos of that as well. Ask the pool maintenance man if that is functioning.

Thanks for the feed back.

I don't know the size of the pool but it's not terribly large. Owner is out of the country and I can't speak to him directly at this time. I am trying to get info on the pool builder/installer.

The pool / spa do have water features. Elevated water spill/fall into pool. Spa spill into pool. There may be an elevated water spill/fall into SPA, but need to confirm. LED lighting, etc. Infinity edge on back of pool to a basin behind pool.

The home inspector did activate each of the buttons / automation cycles but some we're not labled. The different cycles / automations caused differnt pumps to run, values to actuate, etc. The various valves seemed to open and close without struggle, at same speed/pace, etc.

Unless there is a remote I'm not aware of, I can see upgrading to someting that can be controllable via a spare ipad / tablet, or dedicated wireless remote etc. I noticed Pentair has upgrade modules. I'd probalby go this route unless someone convinced me there were already a sold open source project to DIY w/ a protocol translater via raspberry pie / ardinuio, etc that works with home assistant automation, etc.

I'll try to grab some better photos this weekend.

Thanks everyone.

 

[mknauss]

Infinity edge on back of pool to a basin behind pool.

Be sure that is highlighted in all conversations. That is a complicating factor in pool maintenance.

 

[JamesW]

I am trying to get info on the pool builder/installer.

[email protected]

Contact the permits office to see what permits have been issued to the property.

The permit should list the contractors who pulled the permits for the various trades including pool construction, electrical and plumbing/gas and if the permits passed inspection and were closed out.

 

[ajw22]

Checkout..

nodejs-poolController

Many here may be familiar with the amazing project of @tagyoureit for controlling the Pentair Intelli-line of products. It takes the rs485 serial information and allows it to be digested in various ways. Not being very technical, I've struggled a bit with it on my Intelliflo, so I was hoping...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JamesW]

In addition to looking for pool level, look for any cracks in the pool or deck and look for any signs that the pool has raised or sunk at any spot.

Pool level can be verified by checking the water level at multiple places to see if it hits the tile at the exact same place everywhere.

 

[ajw22]

In addition to looking for pool level, look for any cracks in the pool or deck and look for any signs that the pool has raised or sunk at any spot.

Pool level can be verified by checking the water level at multiple places to see if it hits the tile at the exact same place everywhere.

To elaborate, we have seen a bunch of threads about pools cracking or shifting in the Houston/Austin area due to expansive soils in some areas.

 

[HermanTX]

I'm negotiating the final details of the contact of a 2015 home that has a pool and spa. I beleive the pool/spa was put in around 2017. The P/S has Pentair control system (looks like an EasyTouch control panel), PA automated valves, PA pumps, PA filter, etc. I'm told the filter is a cartridge system.

When you purchase a new home, you can have the seller purchase a home warranty for applcances, etc. For an added fee, they can include the pool equipment.
You can use that to have a replacement booster pump and/or at least have it repaired. It may be only the $80 callout fee that is usually assocated with home warranty plans.