Question about Ahhsome Aqua Clarity

[EricJ320]

Hi Eric: Your question is a good one. The AC can be used as a purge and weekly maintenance product. When used as a purge, we recommend using 12 fluid ounces of the pre-mixed Ac product for a single purge In a 400-500 gallon hot tub. You may continue to use the full-strength Ahh-Some Gel if you wish for purging and use the AC as a weekly maintenance product. Thank you for the Ahh-Some purchase. You are starting out on the right foot now with the “new tub purge”. It is unfortunate that more people don’t know about this important first step.
A clean plumbing make the maintenance a whole lot easier.

Thank you for the quick reply. So let me ask it like this, and I know it may be like asking a parent which is their favorite child, but if cost was not an issue, would using AC for purge be as effective at purging as the original purge product? Again, if effectiveness of the purge being the only deciding factor. I still have a full jar, minus 1 purge, so I’ll definitely use it until it’s gone, this is more thinking moving forward long term.

Also, if I order today, it would be 2-3 weeks from our purge before we would be starting AC. Should I just start using it, or wait until the next purge? It will likely be no more than a couple of weeks before we purge again anyway, we are building a deck around the tub and might need to empty it anyway to make some small adjustments to its position.

 

[phonedave]

Thank you for the quick reply. So let me ask it like this, and I know it may be like asking a parent which is their favorite child, but if cost was not an issue, would using AC for purge be as effective at purging as the original purge product? Again, if effectiveness of the purge being the only deciding factor. I still have a full jar, minus 1 purge, so I’ll definitely use it until it’s gone, this is more thinking moving forward long term.

Also, if I order today, it would be 2-3 weeks from our purge before we would be starting AC. Should I just start using it, or wait until the next purge? It will likely be no more than a couple of weeks before we purge again anyway, we are building a deck around the tub and might need to empty it anyway to make some small adjustments to its position.

I asked the same question. I have (had) some left over AhhSome and asked him if I should continue using AhhSome for purges and AC for maintenance, or if they interacted, or if I could use just AC.

I used up my AhhSome on my last purge and plan on using AC for purges going forward (one product to have on hand). I may continue to purchase AhhSome because I use it in my jetted tub, but that tub gets a LOT less use since we got a hot tub.

 

[EricJ320]

I asked the same question. I have (had) some left over AhhSome and asked him if I should continue using AhhSome for purges and AC for maintenance, or if they interacted, or if I could use just AC.

I used up my AhhSome on my last purge and plan on using AC for purges going forward (one product to have on hand). I may continue to purchase AhhSome because I use it in my jetted tub, but that tub gets a LOT less use since we got a hot tub.

Thanks for the info. I’d be interested to know your results on purges before and after to see if you see similar results on the purges using AC vs the original Ahhsome. I’m like you though, I’ll probably still have to buy it for a jetted tub we are about to install in our girls bath room, but if he said we’d get better and more effective purges using original, I’m not opposed to that either. From a cost perspective I’d bet they can’t be too far off from each other, but I haven’t run the numbers to be sure.

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Performance wise, they both do the same job. ideally, you do not start using the Aqua Clarity before you perform a purge. If you do, and you may want to just do this so you will see that a small amount of the Aqua Clarity will definitely release small amounts of biofilm and other particulates that may be hiding in the enveloped slime layer. you will see remnants of this up until the day you do the purge. Just wipe the small released gunk as you see it build on the shell, especially in the filter compartment. You can also use the mixed AC to purge indoor jetted bathtubs. Use one ounce per purge. it works! I personally have a 420 gallon in ground gunite/marcite hot tub in my Florida home. I use the Aqua Clarity for the purge and the maintenance. i also only purge every 12 months or more now since there is practically zero biofilm and/or stickies eliminated after the purge. The AC keeps the pipes and jets whistle clean of build-up. Thank You Eric. Please report your findings to the forum after you’ve used the product for a few months.

 

[ckendalls]

Ok, now you’ve gotten my attention. We have a daughter with CF and have a constant battle to keep pseudomonas aeruginosa out of her lungs. We just came off a full year of doing inhaled antibiotics 2 times a day, finally eradicating it. So you say this product specifically helps prevent or treats for pseudomonas and I’m all ears. Our tub is brand new, just delivered a week ago, we did an Ahhsome purge to kick it off on the right foot. But let me get this straight, AC replaces the need for the purge product, or it’s used in conjunction with it as a weekly maintenance?

We have a pool as well, and I keep our FC on the upper end of the recommended range at all times, so I know it’s clean and never tested positive for pseudomonas, but this tub I’m quickly learning is a whole different animal. Plus, we live on the lake, so she’s possibly exposed in any number of environments, but we are determined to let her live her best life and mitigate the risks by eliminating them where we can. If this is possibly another tool in our arsenal, sign me up!

PA is a tough but amazingly resilient bug. And of course no one knows that more than CF patients, parent and caregivers. As a scientist who has worked in the antibacterial prophylaxis and therapy field for many years. I do obsess over suppressing the unseen biofilms even in my pool and hot tubs. Pool and spa chemicals levels are pretty much analogous to “pharmacodynamics” multi drug prophylaxis and therapy. But these bugs will be here long after the human race.

I do wonder about Aqua Clarity’s mechanism of action and ingredients and its impact on the skin. We have never had a swimmer itch case in our hot tub. My current Dichlor-bleach approach keeps the water crystal clear and pleasant. But I get some particulate flakes after a couple months which is likely oxidized biofilm. Maybe I need to use MPS more often... I keep my Fc in the 5-10 range and also have boric acid at 50ppm and everything else balanced and no one gets in dirty or greasy. Ahh-some purges and water changes still necessary every 2-3 months are a pain but necessary.

 

[5tan]

@Ahhsomeguy Is the Aqua Clarity just a more concentrated version of the Ahhsome Weekly Conditioner (available in Canadian markets only)? WC smells just like diluted Ahhsome gel.

What were the safety tests done to determine that prolonged soaking in diluted Ahhsome (either Weekly Conditioner or Aqua Clarity) is safe for your skin? Is the active ingredient some kind of quaternary ammonium compound and/or enzyme blend? Can you provide toxicological information regarding dermal LD50, skin/eye irritation/sensitization, and results of any ecotoxicity tests on various fish or other living things?

I've been using the Weekly Conditioner for the past few months, recently ran out and uncertain if there were any benefits, so not sure if I want to get more WC or if I should try the AC, or skip both and just do the usual purges before a water change. I'm not totally comfortable soaking for dozens of hours in Weekly Conditioner or Aqua Clarity until more assurances are provided. Thanks!

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Hi Stan: I believe we have posted each other previously on this forum. Thanks for your questions. The Aqua Clarity, once mixed with water as per the instructions, is similar to the WC formula you mention that you currently are using in Canada. The big advantage of the Aqua Clarity is the cost saving benefit. With the Aqua Clarity Concentrate, the consumer supplies the jug, a child resistant cap and water. It smells like Ahh-Some, which is a concentrated cationic surfactant and quaternary ammonium, because we do have a very small amount in the formula, typically less than 2% The Ahh-Some Hot Tub Plumbing & Jet Cleaner you refer to is a very concentrated formula at 54.27% active Quat. We also have a Federal EPA Registration on the Ahh-Some Gel which is 84409-1. We also have a Federal EPA Registration on another maintenance product called Hot Tub Serum Total Maintenance. That registration # is 84409-2. The Serum product uses over 4 times the amount of quaternary at 9.06% that we use in the Aqua Clarity and thousands upon thousands of people have been using Serum in their hot tubs for many years with zero problems. When you refer to quaternary ammonium and how it affects bathers and swimmers you can think about Algaecides. There are many quaternary ammonium algaecides that have been in use for recreational water systems for over 75 years or more. Millions upon millions of people have soaked and swam in pools or hot tubs with this chemical in solution. If there were problems to bathers associated with that chemical it would not be ubiquitous in the industry.

All the test and eco toxicity data you refer to can be found online if you look up the registration number for the Hot Tub Serum. When you consider that the Aqua Clarity has much less actives than the Serum product, and is approved for use in hot tubs and swim spas, I think you will realize that the product is extremely safe and very beneficial for hot tub maintenance and water clarity. It sounds like you have been using our Ahh-Some WC product made available for Canadien hot tub owners. Hopefully, you like what it does for your tub. The Aqua Clarity is not EPA Registered and is proprietary formula. We make no claims that would mandate that we would need such registration on that product. The bottom line is this. It is safe to use and soak in. There are zero enzymes or phosphates in it. You simply need the Aqua Clarity and a suitable sanitizer and you will have a great hot tub experience. You must purge first to remove all the gunk in the plumbing and on the shell. You can use the Aqua Clarity liquid that you mix in the gallon container and use 3 ounces per 100 gallons for the purge. That little 6 ounce bottle of concentrate provides for 2 purges and 52 weeks of AC maintenance in a 400 gallon hot tub for one full year. I have been using this in my own 420 gallon hot tub for over 18 months now. Hope this information helps you understand the product Sir. If you have more questions please ask away or call me offline.
our phone # is on every container and we answer calls 7 days a week. Thank You.

 

[ckendalls]

@Ahhsomeguy Is the Aqua Clarity just a more concentrated version of the Ahhsome Weekly Conditioner (available in Canadian markets only)? WC smells just like diluted Ahhsome gel.

What were the safety tests done to determine that prolonged soaking in diluted Ahhsome (either Weekly Conditioner or Aqua Clarity) is safe for your skin? Is the active ingredient some kind of quaternary ammonium compound and/or enzyme blend? Can you provide toxicological information regarding dermal LD50, skin/eye irritation/sensitization, and results of any ecotoxicity tests on various fish or other living things?

I've been using the Weekly Conditioner for the past few months, recently ran out and uncertain if there were any benefits, so not sure if I want to get more WC or if I should try the AC, or skip both and just do the usual purges before a water change. I'm not totally comfortable soaking for dozens of hours in Weekly Conditioner or Aqua Clarity until more assurances are provided. Thanks!

Good question. Ahh-some gel purge is apparently a formulated alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride, a common cationic surfactant (also called benzalkonium chlorides BACs). Same class active as in things like wet-it-and-forget it etc. I am also concerned about this as an additive in bathing spa water if it is the same general active as ahh-some just more dilute or formulated differently. The ubiquitous and frequent use of BACs in commercial products is also thought to generate selective environments that favor microbial phenotypes potentially cross-resistant to a variety of compounds (antibiotics and biocides) in addition to disrupting membrane and lipids in skin and mucosal membranes.

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/084409-00001-20170907.pdf

Benzalkonium Chlorides: Uses, Regulatory Status, and Microbial Resistance

Benzalkonium chlorides (BACs) are chemicals with widespread applications due to their broad-spectrum antimicrobial properties against bacteria, fungi, and viruses. This review provides an overview of the market for BACs, as well as regulatory measures ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Hello ckendalls: The amount of BAC used in the Aqua Clarity product which is then added to hundreds of gallons of water leaves a negligible ppm in the water. The good thing about this is that it goes to work and performs ongoing cleaning of surfaces wherever water touches. It has been around for many decades and is used in thousands of products. This forum has had people discussing the potential danger of soaking in chlorine too. I want to soak and swim in clear water that refreshes, rejuvenates and feels great. There would be dramatically more health related issues from hot tubs if we didn’t have these maintenance products. Thanks for sharing.

 

[HappyBubbles]

Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I couldn't find the answer. I know the AC instructions state you should start with a fresh purge and balance, but what if it takes a week to balance after a purge? Is it more important to add it in fresh water or balanced water?

 

[ckendalls]

Hello ckendalls: The amount of BAC used in the Aqua Clarity product which is then added to hundreds of gallons of water leaves a negligible ppm in the water. The good thing about this is that it goes to work and performs ongoing cleaning of surfaces wherever water touches. It has been around for many decades and is used in thousands of products. This forum has had people discussing the potential danger of soaking in chlorine too. I want to soak and swim in clear water that refreshes, rejuvenates and feels great. There would be dramatically more health related issues from hot tubs if we didn’t have these maintenance products. Thanks for sharing.

Yes BACs have been around for a long time now and widely used. That’s the point of the paper I shared. BAC’s wide and long term environmental use as a microbicidal use is also thought to be a possible contributor to more general broad spectrum antibiotic resistance, particularly efflux pump based mechanisms.

Like anything else I use in my pool or spa as an additive, I prefer to know the compound levels, approximate half-life and whether it accumulates. And yes we have to choose our balance of anti-microbial “poisons” and labor to get conveniently clean refreshing sanitary and safe water. I guess I do wonder, if Aqua Clarity is just another dilute BAC what is so “proprietary” in comparison to something like Wet-n-forget-it? Concentration?

 

[Mdragger88]

Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I couldn't find the answer. I know the AC instructions state you should start with a fresh purge and balance, but what if it takes a week to balance after a purge? Is it more important to add it in fresh water or balanced water?

What is taking you a week to adjust?
It’s been my experience that most parameters can be adjusted in a hot tub pretty much immediately after the fill (w/ a few minutes in between) unless ta is high & warrants further adjusting (which can take a little longer). I would not hold off on using the aqua clarity based on elevated ta. It is of almost no consequence to otherwise healthy/balanced water other than contributing to more frequent ph rise.

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Hello HappyBubbles: It is important to begin the Aqua Clarity program in a freshly purged hot tub.
If you don’t purge first you may notice a small amount of released gunk that the product has mini-purged.
No big deal but ideally you perform an effective plumbing colonoscopy before you begin the program.
Have a great weekend and get that hot tub water balanced.

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Hi Ckendalls: I can tell you that our Aqua Clarity product is not just a diluted “BAC” as many products are, like the one you mention. We do have a unique recipe that is proprietary and is closely guarded. Your comments are good ones and I appreciate the opportunity to respond. Thank You.

 

[hotubbie]

Aqua Clarity update this morning. This was my second week of maintenance. I shocked with Dichlor yesterday evening, allowed the sanitizer levels to drop from shock level back to normal use. I added the 2.5 floz for my 500 gallon tub.

Prior to the AC drop, my 500 gallon had some 'white floaters' that I'm pretty certain are the normal type of hair and skin product buildup from the previous week of use. After 15 minutes of agitation (without air), I let the water settle a bit and all the floaters were gone with the water turning to full clarity again similar to last week. Like my experiences with Ahh-Some concentrate purges, there was some buildup on the sides of the tub which wiped away very cleanly.

I've attached some before AC app images below.

I am rinsing my filters about every 3 days and we tend to use the hot tub about 5 out of every 7 days. Even with the normal filter cycles, the white floaters would not be eliminated until I added the AC.

I'm normally a bit of a skeptic in terms of hot tub chem promises, but so far the AC experience is very good.

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Thank you for your update hotubbie. As presented in previous posts, the first week or two on the Aqua Clarity product you will need to spray clean your filters a few times as the product will grab any floaters and other hard to see particulates. The decay rate of sanitizer may also increase as a result if bio-product that may be rooted out from plumbing and shell surfaces that hung on even after the latest purge done before you begin the AC program. So glad you like the program and it is working for you.

 

[5tan]

Hello ckendalls: The amount of BAC used in the Aqua Clarity product which is then added to hundreds of gallons of water leaves a negligible ppm in the water. It has been around for many decades and is used in thousands of products. There would be dramatically more health related issues from hot tubs if we didn’t have these maintenance products.

Thanks @ckendalls for that BAC research (Benzalkonium Chlorides: Uses, Regulatory Status, and Microbial Resistance), which shows that no BAC level has been proven to be "negligible". While it is correct that BACs have been in widespread use for decades, in thousands of products, that doesn't mean BACs have no link to any adverse health outcomes - not everyone walking the earth today is in perfect health, quite the opposite actually.

This research shows that no research exists (as of 2019) to prove the safety of BACs and QACs on the human microbiota of the skin, gut, and others, which are lately associated with numerous diseases and health issues.

Direct quotes of the parts relevant to human hot tub usage:
"Most studies and governmental agencies agree that BACs are not innocuous substances, even when used in small concentrations. Safety concerns regarding their use are frequently associated with long-term contact product use"
"The EPA recognized the toxicity of BACs to the aquatic environment and its inhabitants, advising against the release of BACs into lakes, oceans, or other waters. Since then, their toxicity to aquatic organisms, as well as other animals, has been well established"
"Considerable cell toxicity was observed in vitro for human ocular cells exposed to BAC concentrations as low as 0.0001%"
"0.1% is the maximum concentration that can be safely used in contact products, according to the American College of Toxicology"
"0.5-1% causes skin irritation"

"The exposure to the (BAC) biocide can occasionally increase biofilm formation by bacteria. Continuous exposure of bacteria to BACs resulted in thicker biofilms, as observed with scanning electron microscopy. The susceptible strains became strong biofilm formers as well after a period of adaptation (exposure) to BACs."
"Microbial strains with decreased susceptibility to BACs have also been isolated directly from real-case scenarios, environments in which BACs is frequently used as a biocide"
"Some microbial communities and species such as Pseudomonas spp. are capable of degrading BACs, converting them into less toxic chemicals and utilizing them as secondary (biofilm) substrates and energy sources"
"The Pseudomonas sp. strains can naturally withstand the highest concentrations of BACs. Pseudomonas aeruginosa survives at up to 1,600 and 1,200 mg/liter BACs with or without a previous adaptation to the chemical, respectively."

MRSA, e.coli, salmonella, listeria, all rapidly evolve from 15-30 days of gradually-increasing BAC exposure to become cross-resistant to both BACs and many clinically-relevant antibiotics.

Their conclusion: "There is evidence that the continuous use of biocides and their release to the environment in subinhibitory concentrations may lead to the emergence of tolerant, resistant, and cross-resistant microbial strains. Another link that remains to be determined is the impact of BACs and QACs in general to the human microbiota of the skin, gut, and others, which are lately associated with numerous diseases and performance outcomes. Limiting the use and regulating and monitoring chemicals such as BACs are important to reduce the negative impacts on humans and the environment."

My takeaways: Are we sure that we should be soaking in "neglible" concentrations of BACs and QACs, and who determined it was safe to drain into the yard/sewer? The EPA seems to say the opposite. Isn't this exactly how triclosan and chlorhexidine got banned? After they were put into thousands of antibacterial products and used for a decade or 2, research came out showing how bad they were to release into the environment.

@Ahhsomeguy Based on your calculations, what is the exact ppm or mg/L of BACs and QACs, both separately, in 400gal of water at the recommended Aqua Clarity maintenance dose of 1oz per 200gal?

 

[dlleno]

What is taking you a week to adjust?
It’s been my experience that most parameters can be adjusted in a hot tub pretty much immediately after the fill (w/ a few minutes in between) unless ta is high & warrants further adjusting (which can take a little longer). I would not hold off on using the aqua clarity based on elevated ta. It is of almost no consequence to otherwise healthy/balanced water other than contributing to more frequent ph rise.

This has been my experience as well. I watch TA but don't make adjustments to target specific TA values, which I find just causes much tail chasing. So, many years ago I quit listening to the Spa stores quote from books, and now I just let TA do what it does. My source water TA is a bit on the high side, and this contributes to some pH rise which I combat with dry acid as needed. Accordingly, over a period of 1-2 weeks after a new fill, my TA will drop, and about the time I have a better handle on the pH rise, my TA has dropped to the 50ppm region. To avoid a precipitous drop in pH I use borates as a pH buffer.

 

[HappyBubbles]

My fill water is TA 270

 

[Mdragger88]

My fill water is TA 270

That is a high ta but don’t let the process of lowering it (or the fact that it’s high) stop u from using the spa or getting everything else in line. The AQ should be added day 1 along with fc. My fill ta is 1/2 that & it takes me about a day of fooling with it to reduce to a ta of 50. Go in spurts if u feel like it. Usually i do a few rounds of acid & aeration then call it quits for the day. Also when i use dichlor to shock over the first week it lowers ph so i take advantage of that.